EPTPower Rank 03/01/2011 - Page 18
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renzy
Canada781 Posts
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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night terrors
China1284 Posts
On March 30 2011 00:40 Mortality wrote: One key point here is that skill != hotness. I think we can safely be 99+% confident that Bisu is more skilled than Horang2 and FBH, which is why I commented that I feel I they may be too high on my ranking. Nevertheless, both of them were undeniably hot last month, attracting a lot of attention for their strong results against strong players. By that logic at least some people should be above Flash. MST spoiler + Show Spoiler + i'd say stats but since he got 2-0'd last night then not so much now | ||
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Ideas
United States8082 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 30 2011 01:36 night terrors wrote: By that logic at least some people should be above Flash. No, not really. The way I see hotness is a sort of composite of our perception of skill, momentum and results. Flash isn't really lacking in any of these areas. He went 9-3 last month and has been consistently dismantling the toughest competition in all match-ups pretty much all season. The only black mark on his record was a poor showing in SL, but that was way back in December. Flash is still the player everyone fears the most. He's still the player that comes to mind when we think of perfection. My concern about Bisu is that his results have been dipping and his momentum has been sputtering. I cannot imagine a ranking with Bisu ahead of any of the people I put in my last top 5, even after Stats dropping out of MST (and for the record, all of my last top 5 are players I perceive as being highly enough skilled to rival TBLS). As for Horang2 and FBH the main argument against putting them ahead of Bisu is history. But on the other hand, they brought it and it's hard to deny them that. Horang2 is a dark horse pick for continuing the tendency of Hite Entus players to come out of nowhere and deliver strong results in SL (Movie's finals, Effort's gold following the worst slump of his career, Hydra's golden season, Snow pushing JD to the very brink) and FBH deserves a lot of credit for restoring credibility and positive atmosphere to Ace, something that cannot be overlooked. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On March 30 2011 00:40 Mortality wrote: One key point here is that skill != hotness. I think we can safely be 99+% confident that Bisu is more skilled than Horang2 and FBH, which is why I commented that I feel I they may be too high on my ranking. Nevertheless, both of them were undeniably hot last month, attracting a lot of attention for their strong results against strong players. That is fine, but if you go by that requirement Bisu should most def be higher than Stork on your lists considering Stork had a worse February AND a worse March now, and that was kinda the point I was trying to make in the end of my post. If you go by hotness at least be consistent about it and not use it as an argument when it pleases you :p | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Also, you say Flash is up there because of how he is perceived to be that good. Well, Bisu is the same in all but his PvP(unless you like pretending the past is the present). At this point, Fantasy should go way up, and Jaedong really belongs somewhere in the middle. If you watch him, you can still see he's not quite there. His "wins against top players" fail to take into account that a few of them were with aggression, not management. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On March 30 2011 10:08 Mortality wrote: It's not an argument that I use only when it pleases me. My personal feeling is that Bisu and Stork are pretty comparable in hotness. If you want to flip that order I don't really care. 1 place doesn't really change much. Although personally I don't feel that Stork played worse than Bisu last month. I tried to make a joke of it with the smiley since I don`t really think you use it as it pleases you, I think however you where inconsistent in your reasoning for the placements. I don`t really mind Stork above Bisu if just strength of play was your criteria of your placements as I think Stork have played fairly well in most of the games iv seen of him this last month. However since you used hotness as the argument for FBH\Horang being above I don`t think you can say that you think Stork have had a better month result wise than Bisu. Anyway as you said its really a small detail if one of them move up\down a spot. While Horang2 is getting results, his play is still often dubious if you ask me. Look at the games hes won in March vs an unimpressive list of opponents beside Stork, against Grape he gets a solid build order advantage with his 3gate obs vs 4gate with probecut. Still in the first major engagement when he has 2 reavers against 1 reaver he almost manages to lose and takes free hits to his reavers showing off generally horrible reaver micro. However the build order advantage is way to big for Grape to ever make a comeback. His game against Great he played well enough I guess, tho his win had more too do with Great just dying to one DT he lets just walk into his main wrecking havoc for the longest of time. His game against Stork was just absolutely horrible, he fails to do any harass himself the entire game and manages to even lose his speedshuttle and the 2 reavers he dropped out of it shortly thereafter, while taking heavy probe losses the entire game himself. The only redeeming things he does the entire game is twice catching Stork out of position and actually winning the game, tho I think both those battles was poorly fought by Stork as much as being well fought by Horang. While he deserves some props for picking those battles well and catching Stork out of position he still had put himself in a position with his lackluster early game play where he NEEDED to get a good positioning in a battle. Lucky for Horang he did manage to catch Stork out of position, but that is not something you should need too rely on to win your games. Against Shine he is basically once again handed the win from his opponent when shine decides to just show his hydras half a map away in his hydrabust when he sees the probe coming toward his main for the longest time, still refuses to even try and hide his hydras and thus letting Horang cannon up his natural. A blind donkey could have won that game afterward and Horang easily wins as there was not much room for him to mess up. In his game against Paralyze he once again gets an early BO advantage and easily deflects Paralyzes early goon attack (he could have been in a tough spot if Paralyze had actually waited for his first reaver before attacking as it ended up just trading goons with him now), and while he did position himself well and microed pretty good in the deciding first reaver battle his opponent was once again just playing horribly failing first too attack with his reaver and having to bring it into the battle late where his goons are already fighting a uphill battle. These 2 games he actually played OK, but got both the games handed too him by horrible play from his opponents. Now the game against Iris was just terrible to watch and he would have gotten smashed by any decent opponent. Watching him let Iris just drive up close to his army and siege up having him consequently lose half his army before he decide to retreat was just horrible to watch. Lucky for Horang tho Bloody Ridge is a really good Carrier map and with the help of a terrible Iris he managed to win a game that was virtually lost. All Iris needed to do was pick of all the right side expos and leave Horang with 1 mining base and then just kill of all the interceptors later on. Instead Iris decided to move into his main losing a good chunk of his Gols leaving him later with not enough gols to actually kill the interceptors forcing him to try to targetfire the Carriers and that is pretty hard on a map like Bloody ridge. His sole loss against FBH there is not much to say about since it was a pure BO loss. So like I said, sure his 6-1 record looks pretty on paper. However if you actually look at the games hes been playing he has not done anything special and most of his wins can be attributed to BO advantages and/or bad play by opponents. Until he actually start showing some good games outside of PvP I have a hard time regarding him as one of the hotter players around. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
To Oystein: you raise good points and it's possible that my view of Bisu is marginally tainted by the fact that I perceive March as showing us a downward trend from Bisu, which is not something I really feel from Stork. If you compare the two of them, Bisu has always been the more streaky player able to achieve much higher peak win percentages but having less regularity. You may be right about Horang2 as well, although I'm also inclined to feel that you are dismissing his results a tiny bit easily as well. After all, how many times have we seen other Protoss players fall to the exact same hydra break from Shine? Well, to be honest, I'm not uncomfortable with dropping Horang2 to a lower rank and your arguments did help shape that opinion since I don't see any fault with your analysis (other than a tendency to use words that make it sound like he's a D-rank newb). Actually, I'm not uncomfortable with dropping him onto CBNC so that both Zero and Roro can be fit onto the rank. One of my concerns about my past ranking -- one of the things that made me unhappy with it -- was that I really thought both of them should be ranked. Regarding placement of FBH over Bisu... this I actually feel more hesitance to change unless FBH drops from MST. It's not every day a player single-handedly revives the atmosphere of a team and I feel that FBH did this for Ace with powerful play. EDIT: Just to see how I feel about it, I'm going to post my ranking again, with some modification: 1. Flash 2. Jaedong 3. Fantasy 4. Baby 5. Stats (I'm hesitant to drop him lower since he was playing at such an incredibly high level earlier this month -- all SWL season, really) 6. FBH 7. Bisu (or Stork?) 8. Stork 9. Zero 10. Roro | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On March 30 2011 14:22 Mortality wrote:To Oystein: you raise good points and it's possible that my view of Bisu is marginally tainted by the fact that I perceive March as showing us a downward trend from Bisu, which is not something I really feel from Stork. If you compare the two of them, Bisu has always been the more streaky player able to achieve much higher peak win percentages but having less regularity. You may be right about Horang2 as well, although I'm also inclined to feel that you are dismissing his results a tiny bit easily as well. After all, how many times have we seen other Protoss players fall to the exact same hydra break from Shine? Well, to be honest, I'm not uncomfortable with dropping Horang2 to a lower rank and your arguments did help shape that opinion since I don't see any fault with your analysis (other than a tendency to use words that make it sound like he's a D-rank newb). Actually, I'm not uncomfortable with dropping him onto CBNC so that both Zero and Roro can be fit onto the rank. One of my concerns about my past ranking -- one of the things that made me unhappy with it -- was that I really thought both of them should be ranked. Regarding placement of FBH over Bisu... this I actually feel more hesitance to change unless FBH drops from MST. It's not every day a player single-handedly revives the atmosphere of a team and I feel that FBH did this for Ace with powerful play. Like I said if we judge people from their play and not their results I can see Stork being placed above Bisu simply because they have been performing kinda similar the last few months but Stork have been winning their encounters against each other and the games I have seen of Stork he has played in general really well (tho I don`t watch nearly as much BW these days as I used to, tho I try to catch all the JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork games). About the Shine game, I have never beside, Kal vs Shine @ neo medusa seen a game where a P player scouts a hydra all in early lose (in that Kal vs Shine game, Kal scouts 2hatch hydra and just does not add cannons or do anything about it and just died to it). Now I am not talking about the fake all in where you just make 5-7 hydras with just range and pick of the gate\forge, but the kind that Shine actually did where he made like 10-12 and thus ruined his economy. In this game Shines lings are chasing horangs probe from his 3rd toward his natural, and despite knowing this Shine still does not even try to hide his hydras that are just walking toward the probe. Now probably he would have ended up getting scouted anyway, but shine did nothing to prevent it and by the time he stopped producing hydras he was already in a horrible shape. Neither did it help that he sacked 6-7 hydras to kill 2 cannons for no good reason. Now I probably used kind of a harsh language to describe a lot of the things that happened in Horangs games as I think hes an overrated bad one trick pony and that affected me, but honestly the kind of mistakes his opponents/himself was making in most of those games was pretty awful to watch. Too this day I have yet seen a game of horang outside of PvP where I have thought "hes playing really well" and I usually can find at least SOME games of most players like that, now again I don`t watch all of his games but I actually went back and watched all his games from this month just because you had him at your list and what I saw did as usual not impress me. I mean iv seen like cute abusive builds from him, like 12nex into no range +1wep 2gate carrier, but never have I seen anything that suggest hes a good player who can take on good players in BOx outside of PvP. About FBH I have only watched like 3-4 of his games the last month so I can`t really discuss him more in depth so he could deserve the spot for all I know, I just threw him in there with Horang as someone who have been performing "hot" lately that I have problems seeing as being on anything else than a fluke good streak, especially considering the fact he had not won a game in 2011 before March and was on an 11 game loss streak. He did play really well against Free, even tho Free helped him look good with his non existent defense against FBHs vulture harass all game long, but here unlike the mistakes Horangs opponents where doing these mistakes can actually be attributed to FBH "forcing" his opponent too make them with his relentless vult harass. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5588 Posts
On March 30 2011 10:54 Lightwip wrote: I would have to agree that your arguments for Stork and Bisu are quite questionable. For Stork you say, "He lost to good players, but that's OK" without really mentioning much that he's done(he hasn't done much at all, he's been quite unreliable). For Bisu, you talk about all the flaws he's had when most of his losses have been losses in short games against also good players, while his wins have been pretty impressive. I mean, Bisu still stands out in PvZ while Stork doesn't really show his invincible PvT anymore. Also, you say Flash is up there because of how he is perceived to be that good. Well, Bisu is the same in all but his PvP(unless you like pretending the past is the present). At this point, Fantasy should go way up, and Jaedong really belongs somewhere in the middle. If you watch him, you can still see he's not quite there. His "wins against top players" fail to take into account that a few of them were with aggression, not management. I hate to break it to you, but Bisu is no way near Flash in any way right now. Did Jaedong really win with agression? That must be a sign that he is declining then because he was never known to be an agressive player. | ||
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kuroshiroi
3149 Posts
On March 30 2011 18:31 Elroi wrote: I hate to break it to you, but Bisu is no way near Flash in any way right now. Did Jaedong really win with agression? That must be a sign that he is declining then because he was never known to be an agressive player. I suppose his lurker runby against Flash counts as being aggressive, except he didn't win that one. Understandable when he's playing Flash on Benzene which is pretty anti-Hive, where Jaedong shines the most. He "cheesed" Bisu with a handful of lurkers and did a 3 hatch hydra "all-in" against Stork which accidentally worked so well Stork just lost despite Jaedong expanding at the same time. Both Bisu and Stork made one cannon and got punished for it. Is Jaedong supposed to just let them get away with that and most likely die 10-15 minutes later? | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On March 30 2011 18:31 Elroi wrote: I hate to break it to you, but Bisu is no way near Flash in any way right now. Whether or not that is true, it's not the point. And no, Jaedong shouldn't let them get away with skimping. But it doesn't show that he's on top of his game either. | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
Stats #2 incoming. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
2. Jaedong 3. Fantasy 4. Stats 5. Baby 6. Horang2 7. Stork 8. FBH 9. Bisu 10. Roro could make a case for bumping roro off if he epic fails tomorrow. find it harsh on hydra to go from #2 to off, but meh, when your only wins are against rock and mong... has he even had many chances to play at all? edit - if there's fbh fail tomorrow as well, easily possible given he's playing JAEHOON, could bump him down as well | ||
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e_i_pi_1_0
933 Posts
On March 31 2011 02:29 sixfour wrote: find it harsh on hydra to go from #2 to off, but meh, when your only wins are against rock and mong... has he even had many chances to play at all? edit - if there's fbh fail tomorrow as well, easily possible given he's playing JAEHOON, could bump him down as well Hydra only had only 5 games this month, and went 2-3. Losses vs Kal, fantasy, and Iris, wins against Rock and Mong. So not too good. That may be due to his team stepping up as well, but 2-3 is kinda bad, given who the 2 victories are against. | ||
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dobbersp
United States94 Posts
d:- D | ||
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