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On May 16 2011 12:05 trias_e wrote:To xxpack: + Show Spoiler +Naniwa choked in the seventh game. He showed far better play earlier in the finals, and in the series leading up to the finals. Naniwa is certainly capable of excellent mid to late game transitions and keeping his money down. Watch the game on Shakurus Plateau in the finals if you need proof of that.
Inca was terrible in ZvP. He got to the finals basically because GSL currently has a poor tournament structure that allows for flukes to occur.
Either way the point is that we aren't seeing the highest level of sc2 yet (obviously). The hype that surrounds the top level sc1 players is what makes us excited for their transfer.
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Once again, TL comes out looking like a joke. Somewhere in the world of journalism, there is bathroom. This article originates from the metric ton of crap clogging the toilet.
Final edit (lol): it is sophomoric to design your presentation of a hot topic in such a way as to attract as much attention as possible. Intrigue's "skillz" is wasted here, he really should be feverishly macking on the British wedding for some tabloid.
User was banned for this post.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51707 Posts
On May 17 2011 00:07 Shaithis wrote:
Once again, TL comes out looking like a joke. Somewhere in the world of journalism, there is bathroom. This article originates from the metric ton of crap clogging the toilet.
Final edit (lol): it is sophomoric to design your presentation of a hot topic in such a way as to attract as much attention as possible. Intrigue's "skillz" is wasted here, he really should be feverishly macking on the British wedding for some tabloid.
did you even read the post?did you even understand what hes trying to say?If you're having trouble please listen to the latest state of the game podcast.
If you think TL is a joke then why are you even here?oh wait,you were banned the last time you posted here,now it makes sense.
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On May 17 2011 00:07 Shaithis wrote:
Once again, TL comes out looking like a joke. Somewhere in the world of journalism, there is bathroom. This article originates from the metric ton of crap clogging the toilet.
Final edit (lol): it is sophomoric to design your presentation of a hot topic in such a way as to attract as much attention as possible. Intrigue's "skillz" is wasted here, he really should be feverishly macking on the British wedding for some tabloid.
What exactly is your complaint about the article, other than the writing style?
This topic would get a lot of attention no matter how it was written, it gets a lot of attention even i n the middle of completely unrelated threads.
Sometimes you need to be blunt and direct to really hammer a point, especially when there are so many people around who are way too sensitive when anyone says anything that can be interpreted negatively about "their" game (as if it were a nation or religion they feel obliged to defend at all costs).
TL doesn't come out looking like a joke just because you dislike something that's written.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 17 2011 00:07 Shaithis wrote:
Once again, TL comes out looking like a joke. Somewhere in the world of journalism, there is bathroom. This article originates from the metric ton of crap clogging the toilet.
Final edit (lol): it is sophomoric to design your presentation of a hot topic in such a way as to attract as much attention as possible. Intrigue's "skillz" is wasted here, he really should be feverishly macking on the British wedding for some tabloid.
Try to place your post and the article on this ladder and see how it stacks up:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SzdF0.png)
Thank you, paper.
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On May 17 2011 01:25 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:07 Shaithis wrote:
Once again, TL comes out looking like a joke. Somewhere in the world of journalism, there is bathroom. This article originates from the metric ton of crap clogging the toilet.
Final edit (lol): it is sophomoric to design your presentation of a hot topic in such a way as to attract as much attention as possible. Intrigue's "skillz" is wasted here, he really should be feverishly macking on the British wedding for some tabloid. What exactly is your complaint about the article, other than the writing style? This topic would get a lot of attention no matter how it was written, it gets a lot of attention even i n the middle of completely unrelated threads. Sometimes you need to be blunt and direct to really hammer a point, especially when there are so many people around who are way too sensitive when anyone says anything that can be interpreted negatively about "their" game (as if it were a nation or religion they feel obliged to defend at all costs). TL doesn't come out looking like a joke just because you dislike something that's written.
The fact that it makes a glaring assumption that success in BW will directly correlate to success in SC2; that it is in fact impossible that someone like MC who did not have a stellar BW record could put in a monumental amount of effort to better himself in SC2. The shitty journalism just exacerbated this, "competition has been a farce," just wow. This article is a huge insult to everyone who has participated in SC2 tournaments, and it is on the TL front page!
I didn't think that this point needed to be pointed out because it is so obvious, but there you go, just for you.
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On May 17 2011 03:15 Shaithis wrote:
The fact that it makes a glaring assumption that success in BW will directly correlate to success in SC2;
Oh you just didn't UNDERSTAND the article!
Read it again and look at all of the statistics and well-backed arguments presented for WHY success in BW directly correlates to success in SC2
On May 17 2011 03:02 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:07 Shaithis wrote:
Once again, TL comes out looking like a joke. Somewhere in the world of journalism, there is bathroom. This article originates from the metric ton of crap clogging the toilet.
Final edit (lol): it is sophomoric to design your presentation of a hot topic in such a way as to attract as much attention as possible. Intrigue's "skillz" is wasted here, he really should be feverishly macking on the British wedding for some tabloid.
Try to place your post and the article on this ladder and see how it stacks up: Thank you, paper.
omg this is amazing, I'd say between Ad Hominem and tone
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On May 16 2011 09:38 legato89 wrote:Mora, I don't necessarily think that is true, to be honest i wasn't a broodwar player, i come from the warcraft3 scene, and there the best players were in my opinion; grubby, tod, remind, moon, lyn, sky and infi, and after almost a year of starcraft 2, I'm seeing people like naniwa and thorzain become really really good, to the point im forgetting about the fifth race. Its unfair to rank players without having seen them perform.. really Naniwa was nothing special, neither was thorzain. New game new mechanics, new everything, its dumb to keep fighting over who is gonna be the next great player because in all fairness by all we know it might just be someone from an entirely different scene, or someone totally new. 
Nope.
I'm not saying "Flash will be a good of SC2 because he was a god in SC1". I'm saying "look at the criterion of being a progamer; current SC2 pros are scrubs."
The level of execution and training just isn't as high as it will reach in the future. I'd love to see some of the current top players continue to excel in the future (as I love watching thorzain, jinro, white-ra, etc.) but the way things are right now, they're no where close to the ceiling.
If Flash switched, he'd move the scene closer to the ceiling. Would he be distinctly #1? Well, I do think he would be, but again, that's not really the point.
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On May 17 2011 07:08 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 03:15 Shaithis wrote:
The fact that it makes a glaring assumption that success in BW will directly correlate to success in SC2;
Oh you just didn't UNDERSTAND the article! Read it again and look at all of the statistics and well-backed arguments presented for WHY success in BW directly correlates to success in SC2 Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 03:02 Murderotica wrote:On May 17 2011 00:07 Shaithis wrote:
Once again, TL comes out looking like a joke. Somewhere in the world of journalism, there is bathroom. This article originates from the metric ton of crap clogging the toilet.
Final edit (lol): it is sophomoric to design your presentation of a hot topic in such a way as to attract as much attention as possible. Intrigue's "skillz" is wasted here, he really should be feverishly macking on the British wedding for some tabloid.
Try to place your post and the article on this ladder and see how it stacks up: Thank you, paper. omg this is amazing, I'd say between Ad Hominem and tone
Oh? Show me where, exactly.
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Traditionally, GSL finals suck and GSTL finals rock, so I was pretty excited as I just watched the Ro8 of the oft-awesome GSTL. Then I saw this (GSTL Spoilers):
+ Show Spoiler +Leenock vs Alive. Alive forgot his second depot, but luckily Leenock forgot an overlord. On two separate occasions, forcing himself to use the extractor trick twice to get to 38/36. Yes, that's right. In a pro level game, there were three separate instances of someone just flat-out forgetting to make supply.
Alive then went for a big all-in push. He lost his ground army, but had a banshee while Leenock had no anti-air. Thinking strategically, he attacked the neutral supply depot on Terminus RE with the banshee while repairing the very same supply depot with the SCVs he pulled with his attack. This allowed Leenock enough time to get queens out and hold off the attack, where Alive would've otherwise won the game right there. Later on in the game, Leenock has 8 drones on a single mineral patch left in his main. Doa literally apologized. "Normally games are much more high-level than this"
Well....I give up. I think OP wins. I give up. Maybe not all, but some of the high-level players out there are just fucking embarrassing.
I think the article would be so much better if, instead of just stating "They were mediocre at BW, ergo they are mediocre at SC2" as an Axiom, he shouldn't pointed out to actual examples of top-level players failing at very basic things. Not like there's a shortage.
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Did I ever tell you guys how much I love this thread?
Surprised we're still getting all kinds of responses!
Anyway, considering no one added it here and hopefully no one is living under a rock:
Blizzard and KeSPA have finally come to terms!
Like I said before, give some of the top players from BW to make the switch in two years time. Well, you just got your two years.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
If i could get away with posting that laughing pirate meme i would. Also, we don't ban for opinion, but we do ban for tone/diction. What an ass.
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On May 17 2011 03:15 Shaithis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 01:25 Talin wrote:On May 17 2011 00:07 Shaithis wrote:
Once again, TL comes out looking like a joke. Somewhere in the world of journalism, there is bathroom. This article originates from the metric ton of crap clogging the toilet.
Final edit (lol): it is sophomoric to design your presentation of a hot topic in such a way as to attract as much attention as possible. Intrigue's "skillz" is wasted here, he really should be feverishly macking on the British wedding for some tabloid. What exactly is your complaint about the article, other than the writing style? This topic would get a lot of attention no matter how it was written, it gets a lot of attention even i n the middle of completely unrelated threads. Sometimes you need to be blunt and direct to really hammer a point, especially when there are so many people around who are way too sensitive when anyone says anything that can be interpreted negatively about "their" game (as if it were a nation or religion they feel obliged to defend at all costs). TL doesn't come out looking like a joke just because you dislike something that's written. that it is in fact impossible that someone like MC who did not have a stellar BW record could put in a monumental amount of effort to better himself in SC2.
It is borderline impossible that there are former progamers who put more effort in SC2 than they did in BW. It's probably physically impossible (or at least counterproductive) to practice more than BW progamers practice. Then there's also the quality of practice partners, coaches and competition that also influences how much the practice hours you put in affects your skill level, and it is significantly lower in SC2.
The quality and level of practice is actually one of the key points article mentions.
The shitty journalism just exacerbated this, "competition has been a farce," just wow. This article is a huge insult to everyone who has participated in SC2 tournaments, and it is on the TL front page!
It isn't an insult, you just choose to interpret it that way.
We don't think like that because we hate SC2, we just want to see better players playing better games in SC2, because what we saw so far for the most part wasn't that pretty. I personally don't want to see any more of Inca-Nestea finals.
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Seems like no one is reading the article. The point is that SC2 skill is related to BW skill - and all the top SC2 players were the best BW players to switch, it just happens to be that none of the good BW players switched, and the best BW players to switch were B-team like MC and Fruitdealer, and MVP was the only A-team. If you think that MC disproves this article, maybe you should look up the BW ratings of everyone else, because MC is still higher than almost everyone else. It seems exactly related - the best players in SC2 are ALL the best BW players to have switched.
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The skill ceiling in SC2 is lower with how easy the game is compared to BW(mechanically). I feel like the relative ease of SC2 hurts the argument that BW A-teamers will dominate the game if they switch. Since the game is easier it wont require as much skill to be at the top thus putting people of lesser skill on a more even playing field.
It's kind of hard to take this seriously, I don't have any BW experience and I was brought to this forum by SC2. Although it's claimed over and over again that it's, "not an attack" it sure as hell feels like it being that my loyalty is to SC2 and I could give a shit about BW and it's pro gamers. I mean how is, "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment... " not just taking a huge shit on SC2 and it's current pros? It's like saying the pros of SC2 are kids on the playground in the 1st grade and the 5th grade's recess is about to start so all the other kids are going to get pushed around... Give me a fucking break.
Frankly, as someone who enjoys spending time playing and watching SC2 feel insulted by this article. It is arguing to invalidate all the accomplishments of the current pros of SC2 and that makes me sick. Have your opinion about what you *think* is right, but don't just shit on a whole community of pros. To those of you saying but Aranaukin, Intrigue didn't say that, that's a Strawman! He did say that, "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce."
How is that not directly insulting everyone competing in SC2 tournaments?
I'm going to stop now, because I keep getting more pissed off reading and responding to this shit.
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"I was into this shit before it was mainstream"
So elitist.
I'm critical of the tone.
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. I mean how is, "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment... " not just taking a huge shit on SC2 and it's current pros?
Because they are similar games.... it's almost as if SC2 was like a sequel or something!
Seriously, why are people so offended? This game is very new, you act like everything has been discovered, and in BW units that were considered obsolete for a DECADE are considered useful in the flip of a month because it's still evolving, and not so much evolving, but the players are just getting better. Flash is lightyears ahead of where Boxer was. And seeing how Boxer now is doing pretty damn well in SC2 when he was horrible at BW as of recently, I don't think it's a stretch to say if the current BW top players came over that they would dominate.
You see players like Nada and Boxer and July come over because they knew their skill would translate. It shouldn't be so that they should dominate in SC2, yet they are pretty close to doing so (consistent ro8 performances, etc.). All 3 of these washed up has-beens (to put it harshly, I'm a huge fan and july is one of my favorite players right now) should not be competition at all, but they are and that's because no one in SC2 right now is really there.
It takes years and years to get good at this game and considering how young it is, the only people who have such experience are those who played BW. And no one from BW has switched, except 'scrubs' (of course MVP and MC aren't scrubs but you get my point), and these 'scrubs' are the best SC2 players consistently.
Yea, SC2 pros are kind of like kids on a playground. Everyone is a kid on the playground compared to Flash and Jaedong and those other guys. It seems to me you have no idea what you are talking about if you find offense in these comments, because if you know anything about BW you'd know that the competition is a joke, relatively.
Note that I never played BW, I think it's boring, and I've only watched a few games. But watching and understanding it just a bit made me realize how true this article is. Have a bit of humility, SC2 isn't where it is today simply because Blizz made some totally awzum game! - SC2 is where it's at today because of BW, and the level of the competition is also there because of BW. If BW didn't exist, we'd have ridiculously games like BW circa 2000 where people didn't micro or do anything standard like maynarding. You should realize that in 3 years this game will be totally different (barring expansions) because the skill cap will be so much higher. In 3 years Nestea's skill level will be considered scrub, and openings and playstyles today will be outdated then.
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I tried to calculate some data using TLPD - SC2 Korean and BW Korean for the top-20 in SC2 Korea.
The generalia:
The 20 best had a win percentage of 62,5% (league only 62,6%)*, of these 20 were
- 7 without BW-entries, win percentage 60,3% (59,9%)
- 13 with BW-experience from leagues, special events or offline tournaments, with a win percentage 66,2% (67,0%)
--The 4 with no BW league statistics that still played offline tournaments or special events did worse than the average with 57,5% (57,9%)
Of the 9 BW-leaguers, ranking the win-ratios in the group for both SC2 and BW and using the Spearman ranking correlation formulaSpearman ranking correlation I get:
rho = 0.2 (0.04).
Rho = 0 means that there is no correlation and rho = 1 means that there is full correlation.
This means that there is (if you are a pro-BW player) very little advantage to be had from the fact that you had a better win ratio than your opponent in BW.
The specialia:
Of the BW-leaguers (in top 20, SC2) only Nada got worse by switching to SC2, from 61,1% (60,2%) to 55,8% (58%), -8,7% (-3,7%) difference in win ratio
Idra was the most improved overall +97% (+84,8%) and MC most improved in league-only (+627%), +46,9% overall.
Conclusion:
BW-league experience seems to improve your SC2-win ratio but among the top there is very little evidence (yet) to support that the best BW-player of a group of BW-progamers that switched is the most successful SC2-player.
Message if you want calculations (OO Calc-format)
*: () denotes league-only values.
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I thoroughly enjoyed the article and agreed with many of the points you made. In a way it depressed me and made me a bit nostalgic. I do think though as the game evolves, and more pros switch over or maybe if we see the Flash or Jaedong of SC2 rise up then things will change and the scene will become more competitive. The game is young.t.
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Good thing you edited that.
Because that had to be one of the most ignorant, biased, and lop-sided posts I'v ever seen.
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EPT
