On March 04 2011 08:07 DarthXX wrote: I havn't been on the PTR to test, but how slow is the fungal missile? Is it still possible to hit mutas? If not I fear ZvZ might turn to a muta-fest
Timing off the video it takes about .75 second at max range.
Its not terrible, but its no EMP projectile.
We need more spells like that... so actually u can dodge it( actuall skill ) ... I love it, but still i dont know if its a nerf or a buff for zerg.
Still, Good call from Blizzard.
projectile instead of instant: very slight nerf. 4 second reduction in snare: very major nerf.
all around nerf.
if the time is reduced, but the damage isn't, it creates a higher dps right? isn't that a buff? although the units aren't snared as long, they will lose their life a lot faster. in short batttles, i would prefer a higher dps than a long ensnare time in some instances. for example, when i am fungalng for damage and engaging with melee units.
higher dps isn't a big deal when the spell isn't a dps spell like storm.
again you can create higher DPS by cutting the snare to 2 seconds and cutting the damage in half, but that doesn't make the spell better.
Damage is the LAST reason you fungal growth something. and if thats the entire "buff" then a major ass nerf it really was.
Other than banelings (and ultralisks kind of), zerg doesn't have a strong area of effect dps spell/unit. why not add one to the game? i can see why you would want ensnare. i normally use it for groups of flying units to stop their harass, but i can see its uses in larger battles rather than situational fights. also, when you invest so much in a harass unit (mutalisks) that is easily shut down by infestors, it turns match ups like zvz into roachfests where mutalisks are rarely an option anymore because its so easy to counter.
Why not add one? Because they already have them - the ones you mentioned.
Banelings... utterly annihilate infantry. They do even better with an Infestor helping. Ultralisks... totally overrated in Blizzard's eyes since they're expensive as hell and drop like flies to kiting but... they also do AoE damage - and a lot in sufficient numbers.
The new Infestor mechanics blow. When people start to get shit on by fast moving units and start crying about how they either a) missed the FG or b) couldn't get units on site fast enough to take down the attackers due to a 4 second snare, then people will realize how utterly crap this is. Mutas or Phoenix can cross your base in seconds. Hit your main minerals and then switch to your expo faster than Hydras can catch up to them. Big deal if you snare them for 4 seconds (if you manage to) - they just fly away by the time the Hydras finally get to them.
Or, let's also keep in mind that Infestors don't have unlimited mana. You get 2 chances at FG if the Infestor has full mana (I think). Generally when a first push comes you've got a couple infestors at below max mana. You've basically got 2 FGs to save the game. 2 FGs which now have an animation that people can see and react to - on top of already trying to bait it out.
Infestor strength was never the damage - it was the snare.
It's not a good trade-off to gain damage and lose the snare because - and mark my words - people will lose games due to missed FGs. It won't be due to a lack of "skill" either. Nobody has enough skill to guess where an enemy is going to move if that enemy is already moving randomly and erratically simply trying to bait a FG that moves slow enough that even if it's in the right spot, they'll have the hand-eye speed to move out of the way.
Unnecessary nerf. I still don't know why it was implemented considering how things play out in tournaments as it is.
On the forcefield thing: just tested it I can state that you can still push units out of the way. however you cannot push scvs out of the way when they are building a bunker.
although forcefields feel slower and definitely push units less. though it still can be cast on top of units and split armies. .
EDIT: Fungal projectile is 1.25x the speed of a pheonix.
On March 04 2011 08:07 DarthXX wrote: I havn't been on the PTR to test, but how slow is the fungal missile? Is it still possible to hit mutas? If not I fear ZvZ might turn to a muta-fest
Timing off the video it takes about .75 second at max range.
Its not terrible, but its no EMP projectile.
We need more spells like that... so actually u can dodge it( actuall skill ) ... I love it, but still i dont know if its a nerf or a buff for zerg.
Still, Good call from Blizzard.
projectile instead of instant: very slight nerf. 4 second reduction in snare: very major nerf.
all around nerf.
if the time is reduced, but the damage isn't, it creates a higher dps right? isn't that a buff? although the units aren't snared as long, they will lose their life a lot faster. in short batttles, i would prefer a higher dps than a long ensnare time in some instances. for example, when i am fungalng for damage and engaging with melee units.
higher dps isn't a big deal when the spell isn't a dps spell like storm.
again you can create higher DPS by cutting the snare to 2 seconds and cutting the damage in half, but that doesn't make the spell better.
Damage is the LAST reason you fungal growth something. and if thats the entire "buff" then a major ass nerf it really was.
Other than banelings (and ultralisks kind of), zerg doesn't have a strong area of effect dps spell/unit. why not add one to the game? i can see why you would want ensnare. i normally use it for groups of flying units to stop their harass, but i can see its uses in larger battles rather than situational fights. also, when you invest so much in a harass unit (mutalisks) that is easily shut down by infestors, it turns match ups like zvz into roachfests where mutalisks are rarely an option anymore because its so easy to counter.
Why not add one? Because they already have them - the ones you mentioned.
Banelings... utterly annihilate infantry. They do even better with an Infestor helping. Ultralisks... totally overrated in Blizzard's eyes since they're expensive as hell and drop like flies to kiting but... they also do AoE damage - and a lot in sufficient numbers.
The new Infestor mechanics blow. When people start to get shit on by fast moving units and start crying about how they either a) missed the FG or b) couldn't get units on site fast enough to take down the attackers due to a 4 second snare, then people will realize how utterly crap this is. Mutas or Phoenix can cross your base in seconds. Hit your main minerals and then switch to your expo faster than Hydras can catch up to them. Big deal if you snare them for 4 seconds (if you manage to) - they just fly away by the time the Hydras finally get to them.
Or, let's also keep in mind that Infestors don't have unlimited mana. You get 2 chances at FG if the Infestor has full mana (I think). Generally when a first push comes you've got a couple infestors at below max mana. You've basically got 2 FGs to save the game. 2 FGs which now have an animation that people can see and react to - on top of already trying to bait it out.
Infestor strength was never the damage - it was the snare.
It's not a good trade-off to gain damage and lose the snare because - and mark my words - people will lose games due to missed FGs. It won't be due to a lack of "skill" either. Nobody has enough skill to guess where an enemy is going to move if that enemy is already moving randomly and erratically simply trying to bait a FG that moves slow enough that even if it's in the right spot, they'll have the hand-eye speed to move out of the way.
Unnecessary nerf. I still don't know why it was implemented considering how things play out in tournaments as it is.
wasnt FG used against blink stalkers too? Now they can see it coming and dodge lol
Why people can't understand that BANELING is a "melee"( melee range unit ) attack unit? On top of that it's not a spell caster T_T. People saying " Why dont u just go and blow ur banelings on enemys units".
Well if someone that wrote that actually played SC2, and Zerg knows that few forcefields can prevent that, marines and marauders can ran so fast that it out speeds banelings, and u can choose = Colossi shots, storms or Tank shots = THESE ARE ALL RANGE AoE !!!!.
Colossi deal so much dmg, and still is so mobile. Can go up and down cliffs, and is pretty fast compared to other tier 3 units. HT's = instaStorm? I dont have to explain whats wrong with that comparing to Zerg.
And people will now write " OO!! Another QQ Zerg player". And i will respond = YES, Because you don't have to deal with this shiet all day every day. It's so annoying that Blizzard having all the time they have just won't fix it.
Another thing is that Blizzard is saying " We don't want to add bigger maps because we want maps to be easy to play on". WELL... Who made the problem in first place? Who created those small ass maps that are unplayable? Now people that started playing almost a year ago on those maps - sure will be bad on bigger maps -- That requires more skill.
I'm going to say it again. People that are in Bronze, Silver , Gold, Platinum, Diamond and Master are there for a reason. Some people are better, and want to improve, some people play just for fun. So BLIZZARD STOP SAYING THAT YOU WANT FOR ALL PEOPLE TO HAVE FUN. Cuz people that want to learn how to research and cast Storm from HT's, will get the eventually. People that want to be next oGsMC or IMMVP will be there if they have enough motivation. So again, Blizzard stop making these lame changes just to make game more fun for "bad" players.( I don't see how SC:BW would look like when D ranked played is saying " Muta micro is too hard i want it fixed, and i want them to fire 5x faster because im loosing.", or " wow reaver micro is so hard, i think the speed of it is too slow, cuz i can't micro the shuttle at all it would be easier to just press 1 + a !". No!. BW players seat down and LEARNED the mechanics. LEARNED how to make it work, LEARNED how to do such things. SC2 so far is all about going easy on "noobs" just so blizzard can get another $60 into their pockets, and they don't care about real Esports. Esports for them is that they can earn enough money and DON'T listen at all to players and/or community.
I HOPE that in HoTS we will see some new things, some harder things to do. And i don't say that because I'm super-uber-good, it's just annoying to see so easy to learn game. Compared to BW.( It's a continuation of SC:BW, and it looks like a previous version of it.)
Thats all from me... I'm sorry that i wrote so much but it was heavy on my heart for weeks now...
On March 05 2011 03:35 Kyuki wrote: Way too much ranting going on imho. Both when it comes to amulet and fungal. People will adapt, and soon enough we'll look back and say stuff like "wasnt that silly!" like we do today when we talk about the roach for example.
Honestly. I mean, you don't see Terrans crying about their mega-nerf to one of their favourite builds.
Do you even REALIZE how long an extra 5 seconds on a bunker really is!?
On March 05 2011 03:35 Kyuki wrote: Way too much ranting going on imho. Both when it comes to amulet and fungal. People will adapt, and soon enough we'll look back and say stuff like "wasnt that silly!" like we do today when we talk about the roach for example.
Honestly. I mean, you don't see Terrans crying about their mega-nerf to one of their favourite builds.
Do you even REALIZE how long an extra 5 seconds on a bunker really is!?
Stop the QQ Z and P. Be like Terran.
Exactly. Terran doesnt have to cry because all it effects is EARLY RUSHES. Not mid game game/late game. They have perfect units. They have units that slow enemies, they have flying units with the superior range, and cant switch mode to ground. They have cloaked flying unit that deal great dmg. They have thors, that can alone deal with a lot of air. They have superior splash dmg unit-tanks. Why do u think Terran should complain about +5sec to bunker? You don't make sense man...
On March 05 2011 03:35 Kyuki wrote: Way too much ranting going on imho. Both when it comes to amulet and fungal. People will adapt, and soon enough we'll look back and say stuff like "wasnt that silly!" like we do today when we talk about the roach for example.
Honestly. I mean, you don't see Terrans crying about their mega-nerf to one of their favourite builds.
Do you even REALIZE how long an extra 5 seconds on a bunker really is!?
Stop the QQ Z and P. Be like Terran.
It negates one of the dozen or so openings T can utilize. The amulet nerf negates an entire late-game tech tree.
On March 05 2011 12:07 Kindred wrote: wasnt FG used against blink stalkers too? Now they can see it coming and dodge lol
To be fair, stalkers can only blink once every 10 seconds. if they blink dodge 1, the inevitable second FG wont be dodgable except by walking
Lol, If stalkers blink backwards, they won't need another blink. They can walk away to avoid the infestor, because the Stalkers have a run speed of 2.9 and the Infestors are 2.5.
Add on some simple spreading out micro and you'll be able to lessen the infestor attack. Heck they could probably just blink forward and one shot the infestors.
Right now just think of the infestor as a quirky siege tank. I don't feel particularly bad about that, but i kinda prefered the infestor being an infestor not something else.
Blizzard really doesnt know how to manage spellcasters. Infestors are going to be completely useless now. Instead of this they should have just given the infestor a physical attack, and then a spell called Siege Mode where it becomes immobile but shoots splash damage attacks at long ranges.
I liked it when the game was a little less balanced and a lot more open-ended. They just reduce reduce reduce.
Once in a while you get a change that opens new play styles -- phoenix build time buff, massive units killing force fields etc. -- but the rest of the changes really just get rid of things that they can't figure out -- flux vanes, time warp, reaper harass, frenzy, medivac speed...
Sure some of this stuff was agreeably abusive and reduced the number of things that the opponent could do, but if they'd buff the counter more often than they remove the culprit, it'd ensure that the game is a lot more diverse.
Seriously, restore medivac speed to pre-1.1.2, give the amulet back, make colonies travel faster on creep and we'd have a much more interesting game than the current blunt tug-o-war analog that we have now.
On March 05 2011 12:54 DirtYLOu wrote:Another thing is that Blizzard is saying " We don't want to add bigger maps because we want maps to be easy to play on".
That's also really senseless. Why don't they make large maps as well, and just give us an extra map veto or two so we can choose which maps to play on? Serious players will choose to practice on all the maps, and casual players will just veto the ones they're not good at. Problem solved; everyone's happy.
On March 05 2011 12:07 Kindred wrote: wasnt FG used against blink stalkers too? Now they can see it coming and dodge lol
To be fair, stalkers can only blink once every 10 seconds. if they blink dodge 1, the inevitable second FG wont be dodgable except by walking
Lol, If stalkers blink backwards, they won't need another blink. They can walk away to avoid the infestor, because the Stalkers have a run speed of 2.9 and the Infestors are 2.5.
Add on some simple spreading out micro and you'll be able to lessen the infestor attack. Heck they could probably just blink forward and one shot the infestors.
Right now just think of the infestor as a quirky siege tank. I don't feel particularly bad about that, but i kinda prefered the infestor being an infestor not something else.
Spreading out micro would work against FG as it is.
If they blink backwards and run, theyll be leaving the rest of the army to die. If its harass, then itll be easy to split up infestors to have some confront the stalkers and some to intercept them blinking backwards. If they blink into the infestors to one shot them, they blink into your army where they get FGd.
I dunno, I just dont see the new projectile mechanic as the thing that people should be focusing on for the new changes.
On March 05 2011 03:35 Kyuki wrote: Way too much ranting going on imho. Both when it comes to amulet and fungal. People will adapt, and soon enough we'll look back and say stuff like "wasnt that silly!" like we do today when we talk about the roach for example.
Honestly. I mean, you don't see Terrans crying about their mega-nerf to one of their favourite builds.
Do you even REALIZE how long an extra 5 seconds on a bunker really is!?
Stop the QQ Z and P. Be like Terran.
It negates one of the dozen or so openings T can utilize. The amulet nerf negates an entire late-game tech tree.
The removal of amulet makes HT far from unusable. They are still fantastic additions to your army. You just can no longer storm 5 seconds after starting a warp-in.
Hell, if Zerg could spawn banelings immediately out of a hatchery, in the span of 5 seconds, that would be about as broken as the current state of amulet.
On March 05 2011 03:35 Kyuki wrote: Way too much ranting going on imho. Both when it comes to amulet and fungal. People will adapt, and soon enough we'll look back and say stuff like "wasnt that silly!" like we do today when we talk about the roach for example.
Honestly. I mean, you don't see Terrans crying about their mega-nerf to one of their favourite builds.
Do you even REALIZE how long an extra 5 seconds on a bunker really is!?
Stop the QQ Z and P. Be like Terran.
It negates one of the dozen or so openings T can utilize. The amulet nerf negates an entire late-game tech tree.
The removal of amulet makes HT far from unusable. They are still fantastic additions to your army. You just can no longer storm 5 seconds after starting a warp-in.
Hell, if Zerg could spawn banelings immediately out of a hatchery, in the span of 5 seconds, that would be about as broken as the current state of amulet.
If that were a 150/150 upgrade at the top of the zerg tech tree, I think that would be an awesome addition. I'd rather they do that than remove the amulet.
I made a list of patch changes according to the patches listed on starcraft2patches.net noting the changes that slow down the game and the ones that speed it up.
Build time/cost increases, armor increases, skill removals, prerequisite additions, health increases I count as factors that slow down the game; armor decreases, movement speed increases, damage increases, skill additions I count as things that speed up the game.
In total 58 changes were made during the public beta that (more or less inarguably) speed up the game, and 70 changes were made that slow down the game.
After release, 7 changes were made that speed up the game and 24 were made that slow down the game.
The exact impact of each individual change is obviously debatable, but it does show Blizzard's approach to solving balance problems, especially since release: make the game easier by slowing it down, reduce the peculiar utility of each unit, completely shut down builds and tactics that aren't straightforward to balance.
The game could be made a lot more fun by balancing it the other way: if something is too strong, make its responses stronger. Instead we have a situation where the game is becoming less and less dynamic and more and more distilled.
I worry that not only is the skill curve being flattened, but that the game is becoming more determined by prescribed rules and economic constraints, and hence less entertaining both to play and to watch.
On March 05 2011 03:35 Kyuki wrote: Way too much ranting going on imho. Both when it comes to amulet and fungal. People will adapt, and soon enough we'll look back and say stuff like "wasnt that silly!" like we do today when we talk about the roach for example.
Honestly. I mean, you don't see Terrans crying about their mega-nerf to one of their favourite builds.
Do you even REALIZE how long an extra 5 seconds on a bunker really is!?
Stop the QQ Z and P. Be like Terran.
It negates one of the dozen or so openings T can utilize. The amulet nerf negates an entire late-game tech tree.
The removal of amulet makes HT far from unusable. They are still fantastic additions to your army. You just can no longer storm 5 seconds after starting a warp-in.
Hell, if Zerg could spawn banelings immediately out of a hatchery, in the span of 5 seconds, that would be about as broken as the current state of amulet.
Yes, if Protoss could make units from Nexus it would also be as broken. Does that make larva OP? No. If Terran could warp in siege tanks, it would also be as broken. Does that make warp in or siege tanks broken? No. What kind of ridiculous comparison is that? Each race works differently, you can't just say a unit or mechanic would be OP in another race, and use it as proof that it's OP in the race where it's from.
On March 05 2011 03:35 Kyuki wrote: Way too much ranting going on imho. Both when it comes to amulet and fungal. People will adapt, and soon enough we'll look back and say stuff like "wasnt that silly!" like we do today when we talk about the roach for example.
Honestly. I mean, you don't see Terrans crying about their mega-nerf to one of their favourite builds.
Do you even REALIZE how long an extra 5 seconds on a bunker really is!?
Stop the QQ Z and P. Be like Terran.
It negates one of the dozen or so openings T can utilize. The amulet nerf negates an entire late-game tech tree.
The removal of amulet makes HT far from unusable. They are still fantastic additions to your army. You just can no longer storm 5 seconds after starting a warp-in.
Hell, if Zerg could spawn banelings immediately out of a hatchery, in the span of 5 seconds, that would be about as broken as the current state of amulet.
If that were a 150/150 upgrade at the top of the zerg tech tree, I think that would be an awesome addition. I'd rather they do that than remove the amulet.
you're just being silly.
having to deal with wave after wave of HT's perma-storm is rubbish. the correct response is to remove it on the PTR and then we can see whether protoss needs buffing in other areas to compensate.
On March 05 2011 03:35 Kyuki wrote: Way too much ranting going on imho. Both when it comes to amulet and fungal. People will adapt, and soon enough we'll look back and say stuff like "wasnt that silly!" like we do today when we talk about the roach for example.
Honestly. I mean, you don't see Terrans crying about their mega-nerf to one of their favourite builds.
Do you even REALIZE how long an extra 5 seconds on a bunker really is!?
Stop the QQ Z and P. Be like Terran.
It negates one of the dozen or so openings T can utilize. The amulet nerf negates an entire late-game tech tree.
The removal of amulet makes HT far from unusable. They are still fantastic additions to your army. You just can no longer storm 5 seconds after starting a warp-in.
Hell, if Zerg could spawn banelings immediately out of a hatchery, in the span of 5 seconds, that would be about as broken as the current state of amulet.
Can you attack the banelings in the 5 seconds they are morphing in, and they start out at 1 hp and slowly max it out over the course of 5 seconds (with their armor, no eggs)? Does doing so require a 150/150 resource research from hive tech at the baneling nest?
If the answer to both these questions is yes, I would have literally no problem with that change, although I don't think it'll help balance the game.
On March 05 2011 03:35 Kyuki wrote: Way too much ranting going on imho. Both when it comes to amulet and fungal. People will adapt, and soon enough we'll look back and say stuff like "wasnt that silly!" like we do today when we talk about the roach for example.
Honestly. I mean, you don't see Terrans crying about their mega-nerf to one of their favourite builds.
Do you even REALIZE how long an extra 5 seconds on a bunker really is!?
Stop the QQ Z and P. Be like Terran.
It negates one of the dozen or so openings T can utilize. The amulet nerf negates an entire late-game tech tree.
The removal of amulet makes HT far from unusable. They are still fantastic additions to your army. You just can no longer storm 5 seconds after starting a warp-in.
Hell, if Zerg could spawn banelings immediately out of a hatchery, in the span of 5 seconds, that would be about as broken as the current state of amulet.
If that were a 150/150 upgrade at the top of the zerg tech tree, I think that would be an awesome addition. I'd rather they do that than remove the amulet.
you're just being silly.
having to deal with wave after wave of HT's perma-storm is rubbish. the correct response is to remove it on the PTR and then we can see whether protoss needs buffing in other areas to compensate.
Only if you want high templar play to virtually disappear. Honestly, it doesn't need it. Vs terran, storm is only really useful against mass bio play. I'm of the opinion (and a lot more players are starting to do this) that mass bio isn't a good choice late game, mid game it's okay, early game it's great. Late game you should be focusing on mech/air units more than barracks units, using barracks units as support. If you are doing that, storm is a non-issue.
I feel like this nerf is coming at the worst possible time: Terrans are finally starting to evolve out of the pure bio play all game long style, and now they're being encouraged to stay bio.
EPT
