On March 04 2011 17:28 dark fury wrote: lol at all the people whining about fungual change. now its possibly even better than storm vs marines (a good terran will usualy only let his marine take 2 hits from the storm) fungual deals that much damage, + disables.
3 funguals will also kill a group of stalkers
before: 1 fungal means a group of marines will die (typically in 8 seconds) now: 1 fungal means a group of marines will be damaged greatly, 2 fungals mean they die
this is do to the huge nerf in snare time preventing units from getting to and surrounded the marines in time.
"good" terrans should actually prevent fungal from even hitting as the same time for 2 ticks of storm is the time it takes the projectile to reach the marines.
WTF man.. You are messing me up. What side are you on lol? From the sounds of it, you just like trolling everyone's posts x.x STOP CONFUSING MEEEEEE
i'm confused about what you are confused about?
because of the snare time decrease it's difficult to get a surround on a group of marines like you could before, and as such you have to use 2x the energy to get them dead for sure
and dark fury stated that good terrans only let 2 ticks of storm go by on their marines, which is about the time it takes the projectile for fungal to hit the marines, so his definition of good terrans should be able to avoid alot of fungals.
i'm not trolling anyone
just super upset that a years worth of practice and effort are going down the drain and some people are so happy about it kind of pisses me off.
EDIT: full disclosure: also pretty drunk atm
Your anger and over exaggerations about fungal makes the entire change worth it I'm sorry, it's nothing personal.
it's not really over exaggerations. and i understand you finding my anger funny, i mean who doesn't laugh at avilo's rage every once in a while, i do. but like i spent a whole damn year practicing an openning and mid game that i now can't do because it requires another infestor in order to survive early, when the gas isn't there, and if i don't get the infestor it needs 8 more lings, which results in a much slower third, which was the whole purpose of the build. it makes my build auto lose to a few strategies that it didn't before, and thats upsetting to have a year of practice and effort of 20+ hours a week just thrown the hell away.
it doesn't matter what the hell you are talking about, losing 1000 hours of work SUCKS. period.
it doesn't matter what the hell you are talking about, losing 1000 hours of work SUCKS. period.
Now you are trolling. It didn't take you 41 days to create a simple build order. Since when is starcraft 100% about the build order. All your practice wasted? I don't think so.
nah man i've been practicing part time for close to a year now, i'm estimating 1000 hours, but i've been practicing on average 4 hours a day 4-6 days a week. been trying to perfect my strategies and transitions and then start performing in MLG and TSL. the last few weeks i haven't been playing though, so i bet it's closer to 900 hours. but still. 900 hours is NOT long for a progamer or aspiring pro gamer.
since 900 hours = 25 weeks of full time work.
hell with my style 4 hours is about 8 games because of how freaking long it takes to starve people out.
and i've been slowly tweaking the timings and everything to surviving each typical push based on scouting information, solving issues with various killer builds like 2 gate 4 gate 5 rax reaper 4 rax marine scv all ins 2 rax pressure the good old 11 port (remember that LOL). tweaking the build once a weak to survive each new build coming out of the other races.it wasn't a build order. it was an overarchign strategy
to the point where i know that if i go 14/14/13 hatch gas pool i need to have a spine crawler starting as soon as i scout the second rax without an add-on, and a second spine crawler if a tech lab'd third rax comes after that. things like that. figuring out that i actually needed to lair after pool to get a overseer in order to scout for these timings. learning to defend various pushes with infestors takes alot of time as well. learning when my third timing should be in a ton of situations. SO much effort goes into developing an entire strategy that is planned to defend against everything.
I know it's not how SC2 strategies ar edone now, but it's somethign i've been working on myself because of the beauty of BW strategies, i'm trying to 1 man an entire evolution of metagame and builds in order to create those standard builds.
nah man i've been practicing part time for close to a year now, i'm estimating 1000 hours, but i've been practicing on average 4 hours a day 4-6 days a week. been trying to perfect my strategies and transitions and then start performing in MLG and TSL. the last few weeks i haven't been playing though, so i bet it's closer to 900 hours. but still. 900 hours is NOT long for a progamer or aspiring pro gamer.
since 900 hours = 20 weeks of full time work.
hell with my style 4 hours is about 8 games because of how freaking long it takes to starve people out.
Yea, just cause you only know one build order doesn't mean that all those hours were wasted. You kinda missed the point of my last post. I wasn't disagreeing with the amount of time you put in. I'm saying they weren't wasted.
On March 04 2011 17:53 Roblin wrote: also for the record, they changed the fungal to: 1. last half the time 2. deal the same amount of damage 3. 1+2=> double DPS 4. still have hold effect 5. 1+4=> half the hold effect 6. be a projectile
which changes the spell in the following ways: 3. double the DPS: fungal can now be used as a weak damage spell 5. half the hold effect: you must pay closer attention to the units you have used fungal on to continue fungal them: more micro intensive: rewards better players, but loses half of its HPE(HoldPerEnergy) 6. be a projectile: you can now fire a projectile at an area which will land two storm ticks later: you can fungal an area and move away immiedietly with your infestors: you can fungal areas outside of the infestors normal range: rewards better players
in essence: the change doubles the DPS, halfs the HPE, rewards better players. I'm perfectly fine with that.
well 3. just means it deals damage faster, the same overall damage exists (except vs armored) so any amount of damage you could deal before you can't deal more now (except vs armored). the less fungal time means you have to invest twice as much energy in getting the same effect for surrounds and positioning. which rewards more infestors and less so better players.
and the projectile as i said i have little real issue with. it's a front loaded nerf, something that as you get used to (as we did BEFORE it became instant) it gets better and stops being a nerf and just becomes different.
err what? Of course you can deal more damage, given you got more infestors. I know what you are trying to say, you are saying per fungal it is equal, however it does more damage with more infestors. Pre 1.3PTR no matter how many infestors you got, you have to wait 8 seconds until fungal wears off and then you can use it again (fungal does not stack). To make it clear with more energy/infestor it will certainly do more damage over same period of time, with same amount it will not. Think about the times you had infestors and were waiting for fungal to wear off so you can do it again. It's definately higher DPS (by doubling 'possible' dps cap by 2).
On March 04 2011 17:53 Roblin wrote: also for the record, they changed the fungal to: 1. last half the time 2. deal the same amount of damage 3. 1+2=> double DPS 4. still have hold effect 5. 1+4=> half the hold effect 6. be a projectile
which changes the spell in the following ways: 3. double the DPS: fungal can now be used as a weak damage spell 5. half the hold effect: you must pay closer attention to the units you have used fungal on to continue fungal them: more micro intensive: rewards better players, but loses half of its HPE(HoldPerEnergy) 6. be a projectile: you can now fire a projectile at an area which will land two storm ticks later: you can fungal an area and move away immiedietly with your infestors: you can fungal areas outside of the infestors normal range: rewards better players
in essence: the change doubles the DPS, halfs the HPE, rewards better players. I'm perfectly fine with that.
well 3. just means it deals damage faster, the same overall damage exists (except vs armored) so any amount of damage you could deal before you can't deal more now (except vs armored). the less fungal time means you have to invest twice as much energy in getting the same effect for surrounds and positioning. which rewards more infestors and less so better players.
and the projectile as i said i have little real issue with. it's a front loaded nerf, something that as you get used to (as we did BEFORE it became instant) it gets better and stops being a nerf and just becomes different.
err what? Of course you can deal more damage, given you got more infestors. I know what you are trying to say, you are saying per fungal it is equal, however it does more damage with more infestors. Pre 1.3PTR no matter how many infestors you got, you have to wait 8 seconds until fungal wears off and then you can use it again (fungal does not stack). To make it clear with more energy/infestor it will certainly do more damage over same period of time, with same amount it will not. Think about the times you had infestors and were waiting for fungal to wear off so you can do it again. It's definately higher DPS (by doubling 'possible' dps cap by 2).
nah dude he spent 41 days making an extremely specific zerg build order where he can only afford one infestor. So now he can't freeze units for the extra 4 seconds that he needs to, which absolutely ruins his entire life. understand? cause I fucking don't hes an epic troll and ill argue all night as I procrastinate for this physics exam. its 4:20 AM and I got plenty of time
err what? Of course you can deal more damage, given you got more infestors. I know what you are trying to say, you are saying per fungal it is equal, however it does more damage with more infestors. Pre 1.3PTR no matter how many infestors you got, you have to wait 8 seconds until fungal wears off and then you can use it again (fungal does not stack). To make it clear with more energy/infestor it will certainly do more damage over same period of time, with same amount it will not. Think about the times you had infestors and were waiting for fungal to wear off so you can do it again. It's definately higher DPS (by doubling 'possible' dps cap by 2).
yeah never said it wasn't higher DPS. but DPS doesn't matter when the spell devolves into a pure DPS spell. off of PTR you can fungal and then run in banes or lings and surround/kill the unit within the 8 second window, in the PTR's 4 second window banes no longer are effective off creep, and lings have a difficult time fully surrounded off creep.and so you end up dealing the same amoutn of damage but using more fungals to do it.
Pretty much it costs twice as much in order to base your defense off of infestors than it did before, which makes it highly ineffective and a waste of time to do.
also the CAP of damage is the same both ways, you can't deal more damage than required to kill the unit, and whether or not that takes 32 seconds of them being helpless of 16 it doesn't matter, since they can't stop it either way.
EDIT: and i get 2 infestors in the build but in order to scout i need an overseer which costs the gas required for the third infestor that is now needed to hold a stim push.
On March 04 2011 17:53 Roblin wrote: also for the record, they changed the fungal to: 1. last half the time 2. deal the same amount of damage 3. 1+2=> double DPS 4. still have hold effect 5. 1+4=> half the hold effect 6. be a projectile
which changes the spell in the following ways: 3. double the DPS: fungal can now be used as a weak damage spell 5. half the hold effect: you must pay closer attention to the units you have used fungal on to continue fungal them: more micro intensive: rewards better players, but loses half of its HPE(HoldPerEnergy) 6. be a projectile: you can now fire a projectile at an area which will land two storm ticks later: you can fungal an area and move away immiedietly with your infestors: you can fungal areas outside of the infestors normal range: rewards better players
in essence: the change doubles the DPS, halfs the HPE, rewards better players. I'm perfectly fine with that.
well 3. just means it deals damage faster, the same overall damage exists (except vs armored) so any amount of damage you could deal before you can't deal more now (except vs armored). the less fungal time means you have to invest twice as much energy in getting the same effect for surrounds and positioning. which rewards more infestors and less so better players.
and the projectile as i said i have little real issue with. it's a front loaded nerf, something that as you get used to (as we did BEFORE it became instant) it gets better and stops being a nerf and just becomes different.
err what? Of course you can deal more damage, given you got more infestors. I know what you are trying to say, you are saying per fungal it is equal, however it does more damage with more infestors. Pre 1.3PTR no matter how many infestors you got, you have to wait 8 seconds until fungal wears off and then you can use it again (fungal does not stack). To make it clear with more energy/infestor it will certainly do more damage over same period of time, with same amount it will not. Think about the times you had infestors and were waiting for fungal to wear off so you can do it again. It's definately higher DPS (by doubling 'possible' dps cap by 2).
nah dude he spent 41 days making an extremely specific zerg build order where he can only afford one infestor. So now he can't freeze units for the extra 4 seconds that he needs to, which absolutely ruins his entire life. understand? cause I fucking don't hes an epic troll and ill argue all night as I procrastinate for this physics exam. its 4:20 AM and I got plenty of time
err what? Of course you can deal more damage, given you got more infestors. I know what you are trying to say, you are saying per fungal it is equal, however it does more damage with more infestors. Pre 1.3PTR no matter how many infestors you got, you have to wait 8 seconds until fungal wears off and then you can use it again (fungal does not stack). To make it clear with more energy/infestor it will certainly do more damage over same period of time, with same amount it will not. Think about the times you had infestors and were waiting for fungal to wear off so you can do it again. It's definately higher DPS (by doubling 'possible' dps cap by 2).
yeah never said it wasn't higher DPS. but DPS doesn't matter when the spell devolves into a pure DPS spell. off of PTR you can fungal and then run in banes or lings and surround/kill the unit within the 8 second window, in the PTR's 4 second window banes no longer are effective off creep, and lings have a difficult time fully surrounded off creep.and so you end up dealing the same amoutn of damage but using more fungals to do it.
Pretty much it costs twice as much in order to base your defense off of infestors than it did before, which makes it highly ineffective and a waste of time to do.
also the CAP of damage is the same both ways, you can't deal more damage than required to kill the unit, and whether or not that takes 32 seconds of them being helpless of 16 it doesn't matter, since they can't stop it either way.
EDIT: and i get 2 infestors in the build but in order to scout i need an overseer which costs the gas required for the third infestor that is now needed to hold a stim push.
Why does one edit one's post completely if that is not what you have said? <- Maybe a question that may never be answered
On March 04 2011 17:53 Roblin wrote: also for the record, they changed the fungal to: 1. last half the time 2. deal the same amount of damage 3. 1+2=> double DPS 4. still have hold effect 5. 1+4=> half the hold effect 6. be a projectile
which changes the spell in the following ways: 3. double the DPS: fungal can now be used as a weak damage spell 5. half the hold effect: you must pay closer attention to the units you have used fungal on to continue fungal them: more micro intensive: rewards better players, but loses half of its HPE(HoldPerEnergy) 6. be a projectile: you can now fire a projectile at an area which will land two storm ticks later: you can fungal an area and move away immiedietly with your infestors: you can fungal areas outside of the infestors normal range: rewards better players
in essence: the change doubles the DPS, halfs the HPE, rewards better players. I'm perfectly fine with that.
well 3. just means it deals damage faster, the same overall damage exists (except vs armored) so any amount of damage you could deal before you can't deal more now (except vs armored). the less fungal time means you have to invest twice as much energy in getting the same effect for surrounds and positioning. which rewards more infestors and less so better players.
and the projectile as i said i have little real issue with. it's a front loaded nerf, something that as you get used to (as we did BEFORE it became instant) it gets better and stops being a nerf and just becomes different.
i only edit posts to add information or correct huge errors that prevent understanding of my text. like if i say alphabet instead of apples. or some other nonsense. sorry for trying to clarify myself.
EDIT: i NEVER tried to say it wasn't more DPS, it just wasn't more damage (except vs armored) which apparently you can't understand. done being trolled sorry for stating my opinion. ugh. thanks for belittling the past year of my life guys. real cool of you. thought this was a site for people passionate about starcraft.
On March 04 2011 17:53 Roblin wrote: also for the record, they changed the fungal to: 1. last half the time 2. deal the same amount of damage 3. 1+2=> double DPS 4. still have hold effect 5. 1+4=> half the hold effect 6. be a projectile
which changes the spell in the following ways: 3. double the DPS: fungal can now be used as a weak damage spell 5. half the hold effect: you must pay closer attention to the units you have used fungal on to continue fungal them: more micro intensive: rewards better players, but loses half of its HPE(HoldPerEnergy) 6. be a projectile: you can now fire a projectile at an area which will land two storm ticks later: you can fungal an area and move away immiedietly with your infestors: you can fungal areas outside of the infestors normal range: rewards better players
in essence: the change doubles the DPS, halfs the HPE, rewards better players. I'm perfectly fine with that.
well 3. just means it deals damage faster, the same overall damage exists (except vs armored) so any amount of damage you could deal before you can't deal more now (except vs armored). the less fungal time means you have to invest twice as much energy in getting the same effect for surrounds and positioning. which rewards more infestors and less so better players.
and the projectile as i said i have little real issue with. it's a front loaded nerf, something that as you get used to (as we did BEFORE it became instant) it gets better and stops being a nerf and just becomes different.
err what? Of course you can deal more damage, given you got more infestors. I know what you are trying to say, you are saying per fungal it is equal, however it does more damage with more infestors. Pre 1.3PTR no matter how many infestors you got, you have to wait 8 seconds until fungal wears off and then you can use it again (fungal does not stack). To make it clear with more energy/infestor it will certainly do more damage over same period of time, with same amount it will not. Think about the times you had infestors and were waiting for fungal to wear off so you can do it again. It's definately higher DPS (by doubling 'possible' dps cap by 2).
nah dude he spent 41 days making an extremely specific zerg build order where he can only afford one infestor. So now he can't freeze units for the extra 4 seconds that he needs to, which absolutely ruins his entire life. understand? cause I fucking don't hes an epic troll and ill argue all night as I procrastinate for this physics exam. its 4:20 AM and I got plenty of time
I like how he edited the post, epic troll indeed.
i only edit posts to add information or correct huge errors that prevent understanding of my text. like if i say alphabet instead of apples. or some other nonsense. sorry for trying to clarify myself.
easy solution. download a maphack and then you won't need an overseer anymore. why didn't you think of that before? it's so simple. Your build will work perfectly once again and your 41-42 days were not wasted.
well 3. just means it deals damage faster, the same overall damage exists (except vs armored) so any amount of damage you could deal before you can't deal more now (except vs armored). the less fungal time means you have to invest twice as much energy in getting the same effect for surrounds and positioning. which rewards more infestors and less so better players.
and the projectile as i said i have little real issue with. it's a front loaded nerf, something that as you get used to (as we did BEFORE it became instant) it gets better and stops being a nerf and just becomes different.
Bolded for you Smiles :D
Please, stop trolling TL, it's very obvious.
how is total damage = dps?
if a marine has 45 hp you can't deal more than 45 damage to that marine. regardless of how fast you do it. please stop trolling me, i'm done with dealing with you guys trolling me for being passionate about somethign i love.
well 3. just means it deals damage faster, the same overall damage exists (except vs armored) so any amount of damage you could deal before you can't deal more now (except vs armored). the less fungal time means you have to invest twice as much energy in getting the same effect for surrounds and positioning. which rewards more infestors and less so better players.
and the projectile as i said i have little real issue with. it's a front loaded nerf, something that as you get used to (as we did BEFORE it became instant) it gets better and stops being a nerf and just becomes different.
Bolded for you Smiles :D
Please, stop trolling TL, it's very obvious.
how is total damage = dps?
if a marine has 45 hp you can't deal more than 45 damage to that marine. regardless of how fast you do it. please stop trolling me, i'm done with dealing with you guys trolling me for being passionate about somethign i love.
Please Stop... Just plz?
On March 04 2011 17:53 Roblin wrote: also for the record, they changed the fungal to: 1. last half the time 2. deal the same amount of damage 3. 1+2=> double DPS 4. still have hold effect 5. 1+4=> half the hold effect 6. be a projectile
which changes the spell in the following ways: 3. double the DPS: fungal can now be used as a weak damage spell 5. half the hold effect: you must pay closer attention to the units you have used fungal on to continue fungal them: more micro intensive: rewards better players, but loses half of its HPE(HoldPerEnergy) 6. be a projectile: you can now fire a projectile at an area which will land two storm ticks later: you can fungal an area and move away immiedietly with your infestors: you can fungal areas outside of the infestors normal range: rewards better players
in essence: the change doubles the DPS, halfs the HPE, rewards better players. I'm perfectly fine with that.
Your reply post to this->
On March 04 2011 18:01 PrinceXizor wrote:
well 3. just means it deals damage faster, the same overall damage exists (except vs armored) so any amount of damage you could deal before you can't deal more now (except vs armored). the less fungal time means you have to invest twice as much energy in getting the same effect for surrounds and positioning. which rewards more infestors and less so better players.
and the projectile as i said i have little real issue with. it's a front loaded nerf, something that as you get used to (as we did BEFORE it became instant) it gets better and stops being a nerf and just becomes different.
I just don't get what you get out of trolling ppl.
EDIT: Just in case you aren't trolling, I'll just make it clear. Pre 1.3 you need 1 for surround and positioning
After 1.3 you need 2 for surround and positioning YEAH that's right BUT
Pre 1.3 in 8 seconds, deals 36 damage (using 1 fungal)
After 1.3 in 8 seconds, deals 72 damage (using 2 fungal)
"so any amount of damage you could deal before you can't deal more now" <- not true because you can use damage from 2 fungals =_=
Hope this wasn't mentioned before but just my thoughts:
Remove the khaydarian amulet: I don't like it. First the flux veins now the amulet pretty sad. I guess they do it because protoss can do a pretty good drop defense by just warping in one or two ht. Well I would nerf the amulet first, it should give the ht 20 energy points instead of 25. That way it would be still very useful but you wouldn't be able to do an instant defence by a warped in ht.
2. Units immun for 1,5 sec after the vortex. This is a patch i seriously do not understand. First of all 1,5 sec is forever isn't it? They attack me for 1,5 sec without receiving any damage? That is imba in my book. Second why do they have the need to nerf the archon toilet or remove it? Yeah i know you can kill an entire army with one vortex and 3 archons or so but the danger of an archon toilet made the vortex useful. Before (and after) people will just put all the units they have in the vortex and wait. The vortex just pauses the battle for a couple of seconds nothing more. Before, with the threat of an archon toilet people resist to just put everything into the vortex and the vortex was usefull even without the archonn toilet because the threat of the archon toilet made the vortex like a big awesome forcefield. It now split the army really in half and wasn't that the intention of the vortex to begin with?
Well guys, many people dont understand that fungal damage didnt change at all. Armored is exception of course, but rest units will get same adamage as before. Remember guys, that infestor is gas heavy unit, so usually when game depends on them, u have 2-3 with 1 fungal each. This moment is crucial for example in tvz, where at that time u need to defend teran push.
2-3 fungals before and after patch will do total of 108 damage, no difference here. Problem is that its very hard to hold terran army with this (and i bet most terans will be able to dodge fungals, so u hit like 60-70% of units u hit with old fungal). 1 fungal is still 1 fungal, but it holds enemy postion worse, and u hit it much worse. And Guys, notice fact that usually those 2-3 infestors are your main midgame (and early game cause u head towards them) strat! Those 3 units is core of your defense/ofense/strategy. U paid alot for ability to use those 2-3 fungals, with new spell its easier to dodge it, and its harder to come to fungaled units with banes.
All in all, many people here should understand thats buff only in specific situations, that are rare to zergs, most of time its nerf. Theorycrafting is cool, but new infestor will be better than old one only when u can spam fungals left and right, yeah, then its better. Also, remember that midgame, when u have those 3 fungals, its not big problem to wait 4 more seconds for damage, terran doesnt have medivacs usually, so u just wait few more seconds. Limiting factor is not 4 more seconds, but amount of fungals u have at this time. I rarely have situations when i have like 10 infstors, and shoot enemy units with fungals like in quake
Overall, i think that fungal needs to really do more damage to be good spell with new utility to it. 1 Fungal is still 1 fungal, no matter what, and 30% armored isnt enough to destroy very usefull spell:/
On March 04 2011 08:07 DarthXX wrote: I havn't been on the PTR to test, but how slow is the fungal missile? Is it still possible to hit mutas? If not I fear ZvZ might turn to a muta-fest
Timing off the video it takes about .75 second at max range.
Its not terrible, but its no EMP projectile.
We need more spells like that... so actually u can dodge it( actuall skill ) ... I love it, but still i dont know if its a nerf or a buff for zerg.
Still, Good call from Blizzard.
projectile instead of instant: very slight nerf. 4 second reduction in snare: very major nerf.
all around nerf.
if the time is reduced, but the damage isn't, it creates a higher dps right? isn't that a buff? although the units aren't snared as long, they will lose their life a lot faster. in short batttles, i would prefer a higher dps than a long ensnare time in some instances. for example, when i am fungalng for damage and engaging with melee units.
the whole point of getting infestors vs terran was to delay pushes - and counter mass marine strategies. So if the slowing time is cut in half thats a huge nerf - especially because you cant fungal + infested terran anymore or you better have more than 1 fungal(to kill off drops mutas or phenixes). That means air units are even harder to kill off as zerg and you probably need mutas every game or hydras, I dont like that blizzard makes all units that zerg has luck based. e.g. banes vs marines - if your opponent is good your banes wont do anything against his marines or at least not be cost effective. Infestor change - fungal with the new patch it seems like mutas/phenixes/blinkstalker/stimmed units - everything can outrun the projectile unless your infestor is basically on top of the units they try to fungal and once again zerg has to rely on the opponent fucking up.
but maybe my opinion on that will change after i got a chance to test it myself - i cant access the PTR but from the videos and the reports others did it pretty much looks like that.
EPT
I'm sorry, it's nothing personal.
and i get 2 infestors in the build but in order to scout i need an overseer which costs the gas required for the third infestor that is now needed to hold a stim push.
