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i think this "build order" is just an example of what happens if you let zerg drone to the exact amounts and then only pump units
its obvious zerg will be in a great shape and has a silly amounts of units if he makes pure drones => pure units
if ur a toss and have trouble against zerg just getting way ahead in economy and then just runs u over with sick amounts of units. try manipulating his drone unit balance while taking a 3rd base.
the more ur able to make zerg go unit,drone,unit drone etc the slower he will reach the 200 food mark.
a standard build you can do is 3 zealot pressure first from ur initial gateway and then 4gate (8:00minute) to force out a ton of units out of zerg before he gets the drone count he wants to. and then take ur 3rd base without actually ever losing or killing too many units. just being in zergs face gives him enough of a threat to build units when he doesnt want to
if u do this correctly you should be able to hold 3base rather easily
it should be obvious to everyone whos familiar with zerg at this point that if zerg makes only drones then only units his army will outnumber the other 2 races very heavily
stephano has great success because mostly tosses in eu are bad in general but also they either go for a 2base attack, and really attacks (and ofcourse that fails cause stephano only makes units at that point to respond) or they just sit passively and let him drone how he wants and then they take 3base and are clueless why they cant defend it.
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to
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On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to
Personally, the 3zealot into 4gate pressure isn't my favorite - but I definitely agree that protoss needs to pressure consistently. Warp prism harass can be a great way to do damage, since most who use this style don't go for a spire until much later. Hitting in the early game with some "light pressure (3zealot or 2zealot 1stalker) followed up with Warp Prism harass (sentries first, warp in zealots occasionally) can force the zerg to make additional lings early and then also keep a portion of the roach army in the main to deal with Zealot warp-ins.
Playing passive and taking a 3rd won't work - Zerg will have roach speed and +1 by 10:30, which allows them to be extremely aggressive and engage in unequal engagement, while still coming out ahead with an economy to re-max quite fast.
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On April 25 2012 00:04 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:04 Excludos wrote:On April 24 2012 05:38 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2012 15:30 Excludos wrote:On April 23 2012 12:40 Man with a Plan wrote:
This is very situational imo and will be easily countered once people gets the right reaction to it. I hope you're not talking about the build in general. Every zerg and their mother does this build now, and every protoss knows its coming. Yet no one seems to be able to figure out a propper way to deal with it with the exception of somekind of unscouted allin. This build will never be "easily" countered in the current metagame, mappool and patch. Uh in general protoss players hold it very well now of days. White ra showed this vs Stephano in IPL as well. Protoss players already have figured it out (will pro's no idea about non pros or anything) How many games did he win again..? Not relevant, his losses were not caused by this build, he gained a significant lead in the midgame against it regardless of what happened in the late game.
Of course its relevant. The stephano build isn't just an early game allin. Its set to put pressure with roaches so you can tech safely to broodlords and infestors. The second you use an example by a player who didn't end up winning the game, it becomes invalid. No matter what happened in the game. A loss is a loss. And he surely didn't manage to "beat" this build when he got pissed on in the lategame by stephano.
edit: thats not meant to be rude to White-ra btw. I'm a huge fan of him. But that series really did not go his way.
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On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:
i think this "build order" is just an example of what happens if you let zerg drone to the exact amounts and then only pump units
its obvious zerg will be in a great shape and has a silly amounts of units if he makes pure drones => pure units
if ur a toss and have trouble against zerg just getting way ahead in economy and then just runs u over with sick amounts of units. try manipulating his drone unit balance while taking a 3rd base.
the more ur able to make zerg go unit,drone,unit drone etc the slower he will reach the 200 food mark.
a standard build you can do is 3 zealot pressure first from ur initial gateway and then 4gate (8:00minute) to force out a ton of units out of zerg before he gets the drone count he wants to. and then take ur 3rd base without actually ever losing or killing too many units. just being in zergs face gives him enough of a threat to build units when he doesnt want to
if u do this correctly you should be able to hold 3base rather easily
it should be obvious to everyone whos familiar with zerg at this point that if zerg makes only drones then only units his army will outnumber the other 2 races very heavily
stephano has great success because mostly tosses in eu are bad in general but also they either go for a 2base attack, and really attacks (and ofcourse that fails cause stephano only makes units at that point to respond) or they just sit passively and let him drone how he wants and then they take 3base and are clueless why they cant defend it.
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to
I don't think you're being entierly fair here. You're pretty much just saying every single protoss player is bad. Putting pressure on the zerg is nothing new in PvZ. Everyone has experimented with all kinds of different pressure, and some have been successful for a while (like +1 4gate zealots with either voidrays or DTs). But in the end zerg manages to figure it out and stop it easily.
The reason most tosses these days goes for a 2base allin attack is because thats what they're having most success with, not because they've never tried anything else.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 25 2012 01:07 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to Personally, the 3zealot into 4gate pressure isn't my favorite - but I definitely agree that protoss needs to pressure consistently. Warp prism harass can be a great way to do damage, since most who use this style don't go for a spire until much later. Hitting in the early game with some "light pressure (3zealot or 2zealot 1stalker) followed up with Warp Prism harass (sentries first, warp in zealots occasionally) can force the zerg to make additional lings early and then also keep a portion of the roach army in the main to deal with Zealot warp-ins. Playing passive and taking a 3rd won't work - Zerg will have roach speed and +1 by 10:30, which allows them to be extremely aggressive and engage in unequal engagement, while still coming out ahead with an economy to re-max quite fast.
I disagree that taking a passive fast 3rd won't work or isn't viable. Players like White-ra, Axslav, and Puzzle have all done something of the sort. Tails also tried it but he failed. =(
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United States8476 Posts
On April 25 2012 01:26 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 00:04 TheFrankOne wrote:On April 24 2012 06:04 Excludos wrote:On April 24 2012 05:38 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2012 15:30 Excludos wrote:On April 23 2012 12:40 Man with a Plan wrote:
This is very situational imo and will be easily countered once people gets the right reaction to it. I hope you're not talking about the build in general. Every zerg and their mother does this build now, and every protoss knows its coming. Yet no one seems to be able to figure out a propper way to deal with it with the exception of somekind of unscouted allin. This build will never be "easily" countered in the current metagame, mappool and patch. Uh in general protoss players hold it very well now of days. White ra showed this vs Stephano in IPL as well. Protoss players already have figured it out (will pro's no idea about non pros or anything) How many games did he win again..? Not relevant, his losses were not caused by this build, he gained a significant lead in the midgame against it regardless of what happened in the late game. Of course its relevant. The stephano build isn't just an early game allin. Its set to put pressure with roaches so you can tech safely to broodlords and infestors. The second you use an example by a player who didn't end up winning the game, it becomes invalid. No matter what happened in the game. A loss is a loss. And he surely didn't manage to "beat" this build when he got pissed on in the lategame by stephano. edit: thats not meant to be rude to White-ra btw. I'm a huge fan of him. But that series really did not go his way.
Don't see what you're trying to say. White-ra's opening put him significantly ahead in the mid game, but he made many mistakes which caused him to lose the game. Stephano's build put him quite behind in tech and as a result of doing no damage, he couldn't tech to broodlords safely. Unfortunately, one of white-ra's mistakes was being too passive, teching to colossi and mothership while taking a 4th when he could have won with a stalker/sentry/immortal push or a colossistakler/sentry/immortal push.
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On April 25 2012 01:38 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 01:07 TangSC wrote:On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to Personally, the 3zealot into 4gate pressure isn't my favorite - but I definitely agree that protoss needs to pressure consistently. Warp prism harass can be a great way to do damage, since most who use this style don't go for a spire until much later. Hitting in the early game with some "light pressure (3zealot or 2zealot 1stalker) followed up with Warp Prism harass (sentries first, warp in zealots occasionally) can force the zerg to make additional lings early and then also keep a portion of the roach army in the main to deal with Zealot warp-ins. Playing passive and taking a 3rd won't work - Zerg will have roach speed and +1 by 10:30, which allows them to be extremely aggressive and engage in unequal engagement, while still coming out ahead with an economy to re-max quite fast. I disagree that taking a passive fast 3rd won't work or isn't viable. Players like White-ra, Axslav, and Puzzle have all done something of the sort. Tails also tried it but he failed. =(
True, I spoke too soon - passive fast 3rd is probably possible, though in my personal experience it usually gets overwhelmed (I haven't seen the games you mention though). I just know that if zerg is left untouched, they can maxout with 4 hatcheries by 11min with +1 and speed roaches, which means makes it difficult to hold your expansion between 10:30-11:00 minutes.
On the other hand, the construction of a warp prism with 4 sentries is almost zero investment since you're building those sentries anyway. Then you have the ability to warp-in zealots at any time, which can make it easier to hold your 3rd.
EDIT: Out of curiosity what is the timing on that 3rd, Monk?
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On April 25 2012 01:38 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 01:07 TangSC wrote:On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to Personally, the 3zealot into 4gate pressure isn't my favorite - but I definitely agree that protoss needs to pressure consistently. Warp prism harass can be a great way to do damage, since most who use this style don't go for a spire until much later. Hitting in the early game with some "light pressure (3zealot or 2zealot 1stalker) followed up with Warp Prism harass (sentries first, warp in zealots occasionally) can force the zerg to make additional lings early and then also keep a portion of the roach army in the main to deal with Zealot warp-ins. Playing passive and taking a 3rd won't work - Zerg will have roach speed and +1 by 10:30, which allows them to be extremely aggressive and engage in unequal engagement, while still coming out ahead with an economy to re-max quite fast. I disagree that taking a passive fast 3rd won't work or isn't viable. Players like White-ra, Axslav, and Puzzle have all done something of the sort. Tails also tried it but he failed. =(
I think its very map dependant tbh. On maps like antiga and daybreak I would not suggest it. There could be something in taking an extremely fast third though. But I'm a bit afraid of what this could mean for the future of the matchups as well, seeing as it will almost always lose to any kind of early ling pressure by the zerg (You wont even need ling speed, so scouting if gas has been taken won't work as insurance). Which means we could end up with a scenario where you have to guess if the zerg does the stephano style, or something else, leaving you with a loss if you guess wrong. But thats just theorycrafting. Lets work on that problem if we ever get there 
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United States8476 Posts
On April 25 2012 01:42 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 01:38 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 01:07 TangSC wrote:On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to Personally, the 3zealot into 4gate pressure isn't my favorite - but I definitely agree that protoss needs to pressure consistently. Warp prism harass can be a great way to do damage, since most who use this style don't go for a spire until much later. Hitting in the early game with some "light pressure (3zealot or 2zealot 1stalker) followed up with Warp Prism harass (sentries first, warp in zealots occasionally) can force the zerg to make additional lings early and then also keep a portion of the roach army in the main to deal with Zealot warp-ins. Playing passive and taking a 3rd won't work - Zerg will have roach speed and +1 by 10:30, which allows them to be extremely aggressive and engage in unequal engagement, while still coming out ahead with an economy to re-max quite fast. I disagree that taking a passive fast 3rd won't work or isn't viable. Players like White-ra, Axslav, and Puzzle have all done something of the sort. Tails also tried it but he failed. =( True, I spoke too soon - passive fast 3rd is probably possible, though in my personal experience it usually gets overwhelmed (I haven't seen the games you mention though). I just know that if zerg is left untouched, they can maxout with 4 hatcheries by 11min with +1 and speed roaches, which means makes it difficult to hold your expansion between 10:30-11:00 minutes. On the other hand, the construction of a warp prism with 4 sentries is almost zero investment since you're building those sentries anyway. Then you have the ability to warp-in zealots at any time, which can make it easier to hold your 3rd.
If you take a fast 3rd, around 7 minutes, you have more units than you would if you took your 3rd at 10 minutes(the standard timing of a pressure into 3rd build). You have the ability to sim city 7 of your 8ish gateways instead of just 2-4 of them. You also have a solid 70 probe 6 gas economy to support all those gates/robo you might have. Yes, zerg can hit earlier, but you can at the same time provide yourself with better tools to defend.
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On April 25 2012 01:47 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 01:42 TangSC wrote:On April 25 2012 01:38 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 01:07 TangSC wrote:On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to Personally, the 3zealot into 4gate pressure isn't my favorite - but I definitely agree that protoss needs to pressure consistently. Warp prism harass can be a great way to do damage, since most who use this style don't go for a spire until much later. Hitting in the early game with some "light pressure (3zealot or 2zealot 1stalker) followed up with Warp Prism harass (sentries first, warp in zealots occasionally) can force the zerg to make additional lings early and then also keep a portion of the roach army in the main to deal with Zealot warp-ins. Playing passive and taking a 3rd won't work - Zerg will have roach speed and +1 by 10:30, which allows them to be extremely aggressive and engage in unequal engagement, while still coming out ahead with an economy to re-max quite fast. I disagree that taking a passive fast 3rd won't work or isn't viable. Players like White-ra, Axslav, and Puzzle have all done something of the sort. Tails also tried it but he failed. =( True, I spoke too soon - passive fast 3rd is probably possible, though in my personal experience it usually gets overwhelmed (I haven't seen the games you mention though). I just know that if zerg is left untouched, they can maxout with 4 hatcheries by 11min with +1 and speed roaches, which means makes it difficult to hold your expansion between 10:30-11:00 minutes. On the other hand, the construction of a warp prism with 4 sentries is almost zero investment since you're building those sentries anyway. Then you have the ability to warp-in zealots at any time, which can make it easier to hold your 3rd. If you take a fast 3rd, around 7 minutes, you have more units than you would if you took your 3rd at 10 minutes(the standard timing of a pressure into 3rd build). You have the ability to sim city 7 of your 8ish gateways instead of just 2-4 of them. You also have a solid 70 probe 6 gas economy to support all those gates/robo you might have. Yes, zerg can hit earlier, but you can at the same time provide yourself with better tools to defend.
Actually what I'm thinking is best is a very delayed 3rd base, later than the 10min mark. The problem with taking that 7min 3rd is what if they don't go into stephano style?
For example, I recently wrote a guide on LiquidZenio's ZvP 3Hatch Ling/Baneling: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=331230
If you scout no gas and go for a fast 3rd, and then zerg opens a build like this, I think it's a build order loss.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 25 2012 01:44 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 01:38 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 01:07 TangSC wrote:On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to Personally, the 3zealot into 4gate pressure isn't my favorite - but I definitely agree that protoss needs to pressure consistently. Warp prism harass can be a great way to do damage, since most who use this style don't go for a spire until much later. Hitting in the early game with some "light pressure (3zealot or 2zealot 1stalker) followed up with Warp Prism harass (sentries first, warp in zealots occasionally) can force the zerg to make additional lings early and then also keep a portion of the roach army in the main to deal with Zealot warp-ins. Playing passive and taking a 3rd won't work - Zerg will have roach speed and +1 by 10:30, which allows them to be extremely aggressive and engage in unequal engagement, while still coming out ahead with an economy to re-max quite fast. I disagree that taking a passive fast 3rd won't work or isn't viable. Players like White-ra, Axslav, and Puzzle have all done something of the sort. Tails also tried it but he failed. =( I think its very map dependant tbh. On maps like antiga and daybreak I would not suggest it. There could be something in taking an extremely fast third though. But I'm a bit afraid of what this could mean for the future of the matchups as well, seeing as it will almost always lose to any kind of early ling pressure by the zerg (You wont even need ling speed, so scouting if gas has been taken won't work as insurance). Which means we could end up with a scenario where you have to guess if the zerg does the stephano style, or something else, leaving you with a loss if you guess wrong. But thats just theorycrafting. Lets work on that problem if we ever get there
The only thing that really counters early 3rd is blind early speedlings. Slow lings won't stop an early third, especially reactive slow lings as every gateway unit is cost effective vs them and there will be cannons/sim city in time to stop them if you do it reactively. Also, antiga and daybreak aren't the best maps for early third, but they're both viable maps for it.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 25 2012 01:50 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 01:47 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 01:42 TangSC wrote:On April 25 2012 01:38 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 01:07 TangSC wrote:On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to Personally, the 3zealot into 4gate pressure isn't my favorite - but I definitely agree that protoss needs to pressure consistently. Warp prism harass can be a great way to do damage, since most who use this style don't go for a spire until much later. Hitting in the early game with some "light pressure (3zealot or 2zealot 1stalker) followed up with Warp Prism harass (sentries first, warp in zealots occasionally) can force the zerg to make additional lings early and then also keep a portion of the roach army in the main to deal with Zealot warp-ins. Playing passive and taking a 3rd won't work - Zerg will have roach speed and +1 by 10:30, which allows them to be extremely aggressive and engage in unequal engagement, while still coming out ahead with an economy to re-max quite fast. I disagree that taking a passive fast 3rd won't work or isn't viable. Players like White-ra, Axslav, and Puzzle have all done something of the sort. Tails also tried it but he failed. =( True, I spoke too soon - passive fast 3rd is probably possible, though in my personal experience it usually gets overwhelmed (I haven't seen the games you mention though). I just know that if zerg is left untouched, they can maxout with 4 hatcheries by 11min with +1 and speed roaches, which means makes it difficult to hold your expansion between 10:30-11:00 minutes. On the other hand, the construction of a warp prism with 4 sentries is almost zero investment since you're building those sentries anyway. Then you have the ability to warp-in zealots at any time, which can make it easier to hold your 3rd. If you take a fast 3rd, around 7 minutes, you have more units than you would if you took your 3rd at 10 minutes(the standard timing of a pressure into 3rd build). You have the ability to sim city 7 of your 8ish gateways instead of just 2-4 of them. You also have a solid 70 probe 6 gas economy to support all those gates/robo you might have. Yes, zerg can hit earlier, but you can at the same time provide yourself with better tools to defend. Actually what I'm thinking is best is a very delayed 3rd base, later than the 10min mark. The problem with taking that 7min 3rd is what if they don't go into stephano style? For example, I recently wrote a guide on LiquidZenio's ZvP 3Hatch Ling/Baneling: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=331230If you scout no gas and go for a fast 3rd, and then zerg opens a build like this, I think it's a build order loss.
Early speedlings is a blind counter, but only at a specific timing. The build I do with an early 3rd gets an early stalker then mass sentries from 1 gateway. I wouldn't commit to an early 3rd if I see speedlings kill my stalker. And I'd have 2 sentries by the time you morph banes, which I argue puts me in an even better position than let's say a common zealot/zealot/stalker poke into 4 gate +1 push.
There are also builds that get 3rds between 8 and 9 mins and builds that get them between 6:30 and 7:00, so a lot of variety with fast 3rd builds.
Also, I really don't think delayed 3rd bases are the answer. Then zerg can just get way too far ahead in economy on 3 base.
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On April 25 2012 01:31 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:
i think this "build order" is just an example of what happens if you let zerg drone to the exact amounts and then only pump units
its obvious zerg will be in a great shape and has a silly amounts of units if he makes pure drones => pure units
if ur a toss and have trouble against zerg just getting way ahead in economy and then just runs u over with sick amounts of units. try manipulating his drone unit balance while taking a 3rd base.
the more ur able to make zerg go unit,drone,unit drone etc the slower he will reach the 200 food mark.
a standard build you can do is 3 zealot pressure first from ur initial gateway and then 4gate (8:00minute) to force out a ton of units out of zerg before he gets the drone count he wants to. and then take ur 3rd base without actually ever losing or killing too many units. just being in zergs face gives him enough of a threat to build units when he doesnt want to
if u do this correctly you should be able to hold 3base rather easily
it should be obvious to everyone whos familiar with zerg at this point that if zerg makes only drones then only units his army will outnumber the other 2 races very heavily
stephano has great success because mostly tosses in eu are bad in general but also they either go for a 2base attack, and really attacks (and ofcourse that fails cause stephano only makes units at that point to respond) or they just sit passively and let him drone how he wants and then they take 3base and are clueless why they cant defend it.
to put it short, you need to be in zergs face, and manipulate his drone unit balance very much throughout the game. zergs greatest strenght is that he can focus only drone or only unit, so you cant let him do it exactly how he wants to I don't think you're being entierly fair here. You're pretty much just saying every single protoss player is bad. Putting pressure on the zerg is nothing new in PvZ. Everyone has experimented with all kinds of different pressure, and some have been successful for a while (like +1 4gate zealots with either voidrays or DTs). But in the end zerg manages to figure it out and stop it easily. The reason most tosses these days goes for a 2base allin attack is because thats what they're having most success with, not because they've never tried anything else.
yes. ofcourse zergs figure out how to stop it and so on. the point is your making units and showing them as aggression to the zerg (units that you would already need to defend ur 3rd anyway, so your basically investing nothing into your attack) while zerg has to respond by investing into things other than drones, which makes his eventual mass attack with roaches or whatever on you much much easier to defend
the point im trying to make is you dont need to do damage such as killing stuff, your damage is by forcing him to make units before he gets the critical amount of drones so early that he can just make units for the rest of the games, attack and kill you
all this (that i said) rather than just throwing down your nexus and dont show any signs of aggression to the zerg is the best way to go about securing your 3rd.
so if you 4gate zealot, if you force 8 roaches and 12 lings on the production tab, if you then go onto losing 7-9 gateway units while "forcing zerg units", then it doesnt pay off cause you lost a bunch of units. your not really forcing zerg to make units if he manages to kill your stuff in the process. the point is to show it and force units without actually losing units.
so if you have trouble defend against zergs who max out on 48 drones on minerals and 15 drones mining (63 drones in total) then you need to force him to make units before he gets to 63 drones
my suggestion to tosses who want to learn how to defend 3base toss is to actually practice a ton and ton of different 2base allins and learn exactly the drone count zerg needs to defend the different 2base allins you do. then make similar macro oriented builds where you display the same threats to the zergs eye (so he will think its that allin) but instead back off and take ur 3rd.
fake impressions and forcing zergs unit/drone balance is a very complicated thing and it takes alot of practice and knowledge about the matchup to do right
ill say a rather standard way to do it safely but still very fast and solid.
go for the 4gate +1 stargate (your stargate should go down at 6:20, gates at 7:00 and your first 4 zealot warpin at 8:10~), then with your next 400 minerals put down your 3rd nexus and make a robo, sentries (at home).
the 4 zealots should be warped in as close as possible to their 3rd (normally right outside the creep)
robo finishes and try get out the observer asap and 3 immortals and 3 phoenixes. add a few gates to your 3rd base and a cannon if u like.
so now you should be on 7gates and have about 8 sentries and 3 immortals (also a ton of stalkers), not to mention the voidray and the 3 phoenixes that you must have kept alive.
you forced alot of units before he got to his 63 drones with and u also forced 3 spores and a bunch of extra queens)
there is no way for zerg to max out that fast on roaches and there is really no timing window where he should be able to kill you. this is just 1 example build how to get ur 3rd up, but there is over 10 different ways.
just focus on learning the standard basics of forcing zerg to make units without you losing units at the same time ur taking a 3rd and youll be more than fine
and to emphasis on what you said that they have more success killing zerg with 2base than securing 3base is because of what i talked about. the zerg plays too greedy early on and dies to 2base, if he doesnt die then he gets an advantage which he uses to hit a timing to kill protoss later instead.
so assume zergs played more safe and never died to 2base, then they wouldnt have this timing window to just go kill protoss that tries to secure a 3rd. makes sense right?
i read the other comments about the timing of the 3rd base. you might naturally think the later you take your 3rd base the safer it is, thats not actually true.
if your doing a 2base attack on 13 minutes against a zerg, thats too late and hes just going to kill you easily. because he had been gaining so much more money from 3base than u been mining from 2base. so take that thought into your 3rd nexus completes at 13 minutes. now how are you supposed to defend a zerg when he has been mining from 3base for all that time?
you want to take your 3rd nexus as early as possible and make it kick in BEFORE zerg actually can attack. in that way you get more units more everything.
a quick 3rd is considered around 8:00, a normally timed one is between 9 and 10 minutes. 12+ probably just means your bad. you cant take such a late 3rd and expect to defend the zerg rallying thats been mining from full 3base for 4-5 minutes
its not a simple task to defend a 3rd base as protoss safely, but trust me its even harder for zerg to do so
On April 25 2012 01:31 Excludos wrote:
I don't think you're being entierly fair here. You're pretty much just saying every single protoss player is bad.
well if you look at the gsl statistics its actually <30% winratio for zerg for 2 seasons now in zvp
and its much more likely that its protosses outside korea being bad rather than korean zergs being bad
coming from korea was there for 3-4 months practicing alot especially with sage (whos expert mu is pvz) he didnt have much troubles taking and securing 3rd base defending vs mass roach ling attacks. also he never just took the 3rd without doing pressure or harassment at the same time
so far in europe, practicing on the ladder and tournament games the eu tosses play alot more passive when they are playing macro style and i think thats the key reason they have hard times against zergs
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On April 25 2012 01:26 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 00:04 TheFrankOne wrote:On April 24 2012 06:04 Excludos wrote:On April 24 2012 05:38 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2012 15:30 Excludos wrote:On April 23 2012 12:40 Man with a Plan wrote:
This is very situational imo and will be easily countered once people gets the right reaction to it. I hope you're not talking about the build in general. Every zerg and their mother does this build now, and every protoss knows its coming. Yet no one seems to be able to figure out a propper way to deal with it with the exception of somekind of unscouted allin. This build will never be "easily" countered in the current metagame, mappool and patch. Uh in general protoss players hold it very well now of days. White ra showed this vs Stephano in IPL as well. Protoss players already have figured it out (will pro's no idea about non pros or anything) How many games did he win again..? Not relevant, his losses were not caused by this build, he gained a significant lead in the midgame against it regardless of what happened in the late game. Of course its relevant. The stephano build isn't just an early game allin. Its set to put pressure with roaches so you can tech safely to broodlords and infestors. The second you use an example by a player who didn't end up winning the game, it becomes invalid. No matter what happened in the game. A loss is a loss. And he surely didn't manage to "beat" this build when he got pissed on in the lategame by stephano. edit: thats not meant to be rude to White-ra btw. I'm a huge fan of him. But that series really did not go his way.
AFAIK when people say "stephano-style roaches" they mean zerg maxing on roaches and taking out protoss' third and/or trading somewhat cost effectively with the protoss army to keep it small. If zerg does not acheive either of these goals the protoss can just counter push and win pretty easily, so in that sense it kind of is an all-in. It is certainly not a build that "tech safely to broodlords and infestors." If you don't do significant damage with your roaches you are behind on tech and probably on worker count as well. You may have seen stephano tech BLs/Infestors/go late game in games but that's because he probably he achieved one of the goals mentioned above with his roaches. I've seen games where stephano loses to these counter pushes as well when he doesn't do enough damage with his roaches.
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On April 25 2012 00:19 MorroW wrote:+ Show Spoiler +yes. ofcourse zergs figure out how to stop it and so on. the point is your making units and showing them as aggression to the zerg (units that you would already need to defend ur 3rd anyway, so your basically investing nothing into your attack) while zerg has to respond by investing into things other than drones, which makes his eventual mass attack with roaches or whatever on you much much easier to defend
the point im trying to make is you dont need to do damage such as killing stuff, your damage is by forcing him to make units before he gets the critical amount of drones so early that he can just make units for the rest of the games, attack and kill you
all this (that i said) rather than just throwing down your nexus and dont show any signs of aggression to the zerg is the best way to go about securing your 3rd.
so if you 4gate zealot, if you force 8 roaches and 12 lings on the production tab, if you then go onto losing 7-9 gateway units while "forcing zerg units", then it doesnt pay off cause you lost a bunch of units. your not really forcing zerg to make units if he manages to kill your stuff in the process. the point is to show it and force units without actually losing units.
so if you have trouble defend against zergs who max out on 48 drones on minerals and 15 drones mining (63 drones in total) then you need to force him to make units before he gets to 63 drones
my suggestion to tosses who want to learn how to defend 3base toss is to actually practice a ton and ton of different 2base allins and learn exactly the drone count zerg needs to defend the different 2base allins you do. then make similar macro oriented builds where you display the same threats to the zergs eye (so he will think its that allin) but instead back off and take ur 3rd.
fake impressions and forcing zergs unit/drone balance is a very complicated thing and it takes alot of practice and knowledge about the matchup to do right
ill say a rather standard way to do it safely but still very fast and solid.
go for the 4gate +1 stargate (your stargate should go down at 6:20, gates at 7:00 and your first 4 zealot warpin at 8:10~), then with your next 400 minerals put down your 3rd nexus and make a robo, sentries (at home).
the 4 zealots should be warped in as close as possible to their 3rd (normally right outside the creep)
robo finishes and try get out the observer asap and 3 immortals and 3 phoenixes. add a few gates to your 3rd base and a cannon if u like.
so now you should be on 7gates and have about 8 sentries and 3 immortals (also a ton of stalkers), not to mention the voidray and the 3 phoenixes that you must have kept alive.
you forced alot of units before he got to his 63 drones with and u also forced 3 spores and a bunch of extra queens)
there is no way for zerg to max out that fast on roaches and there is really no timing window where he should be able to kill you. this is just 1 example build how to get ur 3rd up, but there is over 10 different ways.
just focus on learning the standard basics of forcing zerg to make units without you losing units at the same time ur taking a 3rd and youll be more than fine
and to emphasis on what you said that they have more success killing zerg with 2base than securing 3base is because of what i talked about. the zerg plays too greedy early on and dies to 2base, if he doesnt die then he gets an advantage which he uses to hit a timing to kill protoss later instead.
so assume zergs played more safe and never died to 2base, then they wouldnt have this timing window to just go kill protoss that tries to secure a 3rd. makes sense right?
i read the other comments about the timing of the 3rd base. you might naturally think the later you take your 3rd base the safer it is, thats not actually true.
if your doing a 2base attack on 13 minutes against a zerg, thats too late and hes just going to kill you easily. because he had been gaining so much more money from 3base than u been mining from 2base. so take that thought into your 3rd nexus completes at 13 minutes. now how are you supposed to defend a zerg when he has been mining from 3base for all that time?
you want to take your 3rd nexus as early as possible and make it kick in BEFORE zerg actually can attack. in that way you get more units more everything.
a quick 3rd is considered around 8:00, a normally timed one is between 9 and 10 minutes. 12+ probably just means your bad. you cant take such a late 3rd and expect to defend the zerg rallying thats been mining from full 3base for 4-5 minutes
its not a simple task to defend a 3rd base as protoss safely, but trust me its even harder for zerg to do so
MorroW, this is a seriously quality post. TL was much better when pros came out and posted on the strat forums, thanks for doing this.
I pretty much agree with everything that's being said here. I find fast third styles just as hard to deal with (if not even harder) than just 2 base allins from toss, because it's the threat of the allin or some pressure that protoss did that interrupts your economy powering as Zerg. If you scout 2 gases at the natural at like 6:30 from toss, then you're thinking double stargate or DT or some crazy tech build, but toss can actually do this entire thing to fake you out and pull the guys off his main gas so he's only mining 2 gas, force you to respond to tech, and then make a third nexus and a bunch of gateway units to defend.
It's like how in chess, the threat of a certain move is often stronger than the move itself, because the threat of it forces a specific response from the opponent which then in turn might weaken his position in another way... If you just play the move straight up, then your opponent will be resourceful and find a defense for it. Of course this cycle continues where the move itself might become strong again, since your opponent understands that you are thinking ahead and plans for the overall "better" plan which involves not playing the move, flowing with the position, and maintaining the tension of it, so now he prepares for the more optimal plan instead of the Layer 1 plan where you just play the move, so you play it and then it works.
That was a really convoluted last sentence but it's basically just describing the metagame of how different strats become weak and strong based on players making reads on each other. Right now I feel that in high master where I'm playing ZvP, it's too straight up. Toss does some kind of 2 base timing, and it either works or it doesn't work cause they've been doing the same stuff for like 2 months and zergs have figured out good scout timings to check for gases and gateway counts and sentry times. If you start mixing in fast thirds with the 8 gates, then it actually makes both builds stronger cause zerg has to prepare his response for both.
tldr; Hidden information is good. Use it.
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On April 25 2012 03:46 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 01:26 Excludos wrote:On April 25 2012 00:04 TheFrankOne wrote:On April 24 2012 06:04 Excludos wrote:On April 24 2012 05:38 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2012 15:30 Excludos wrote:On April 23 2012 12:40 Man with a Plan wrote:
This is very situational imo and will be easily countered once people gets the right reaction to it. I hope you're not talking about the build in general. Every zerg and their mother does this build now, and every protoss knows its coming. Yet no one seems to be able to figure out a propper way to deal with it with the exception of somekind of unscouted allin. This build will never be "easily" countered in the current metagame, mappool and patch. Uh in general protoss players hold it very well now of days. White ra showed this vs Stephano in IPL as well. Protoss players already have figured it out (will pro's no idea about non pros or anything) How many games did he win again..? Not relevant, his losses were not caused by this build, he gained a significant lead in the midgame against it regardless of what happened in the late game. Of course its relevant. The stephano build isn't just an early game allin. Its set to put pressure with roaches so you can tech safely to broodlords and infestors. The second you use an example by a player who didn't end up winning the game, it becomes invalid. No matter what happened in the game. A loss is a loss. And he surely didn't manage to "beat" this build when he got pissed on in the lategame by stephano. edit: thats not meant to be rude to White-ra btw. I'm a huge fan of him. But that series really did not go his way. AFAIK when people say "stephano-style roaches" they mean zerg maxing on roaches and taking out protoss' third and/or trading somewhat cost effectively with the protoss army to keep it small. If zerg does not acheive either of these goals the protoss can just counter push and win pretty easily, so in that sense it kind of is an all-in. It is certainly not a build that "tech safely to broodlords and infestors." If you don't do significant damage with your roaches you are behind on tech and probably on worker count as well. You may have seen stephano tech BLs/Infestors/go late game in games but that's because he probably he achieved one of the goals mentioned above with his roaches. I've seen games where stephano loses to these counter pushes as well when he doesn't do enough damage with his roaches.
I would agree for the most part; I don't know if you're necessarily far behind in tech, but if you don't do significant damage there's a scary window where 3base protoss can kill you before Broodlords. Hence the mass spine/infestor defense, but one of the most important things is not to lose any of the 4th/5th Zerg bases to DTs or other warp-ins at this stage in the game.
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Anyone know what the minimum time is for maxing out like this? Saw Stephano do it at 10:50 once yesterday :o
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I think morrow is right its just a matter of using the units you make in the beginning to force units (by feigning all ins and knowing when speed finishes). but every toss seems to forget you cant lose these units, because you NEED them to defend your third. most tosses are super passive while sitting on 2 bases. you have to make some units, you might as well try to get then to work for you WITHOUT fighting
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On April 25 2012 23:59 HaXXspetten wrote:
Anyone know what the minimum time is for maxing out like this? Saw Stephano do it at 10:50 once yesterday :o
About 10:50 now. Earliest I've managed is 10:55.
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I love this but I think it's really sad that the game has devolved into maxing out on one unit and attacking.
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EPT
