07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
If you want to hide your ip/identity, you go to a friends place who never uses TL.net, make an account and you are 99% save. If you are a well known TL community member only on writing patterns someone might catch you (looooong stretch). Or if the computer you are using for this is nearby from where you usaully are logging onto TL.net then by proximity the search can be narrowed down. If you are a fool/attentionwhore (with all due respect) to post this from your regular ip address then you want to be discovered.
What I think about the whole situation. Whether he is cheating or not, the big bucks and "fame" is at live events.
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse.
How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here.
I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here.
You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here.
You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread.
Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects.
But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others:
a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP.
You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades.
Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either..
What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known.
If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such.
This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity.
I'll admit that's mostly my sense of righteousness talking. If you post an accusation in my opinion it should be possible to hold you accountable for the outcome.
Accountable in what way? I think the actions in the replay were suspicious enough to at least raise the issue. You can argue whether it had to be done in a thread like this or by contacting his team first, but I don't think the person who raises questions and provides his interpretation should be held 'accountable' in any way.
The only thing I would criticize a bit is the OP should have worded things slightly less sensationalist. For example, he said something along the lines of 'Spades hacked in Brood War, guess what? He's back!', which is unnecessary and the latter part is of course up for debate, not a fact.
On June 05 2012 19:55 Geiko wrote: I can't read the whole thread, but how did Spades explain that he scanned the right base without knowing where it was ?
He said something about being already late with scouting, so he sent his SCV to one base and scanned the other one.
On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote: I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic.
Stop being a fucking internet lawyer. Open you eyes listen to the pro´s watch the replay´s. Listen to what Illusion,Catz,Drewbie,TT1 sayd on there stream listen to what Merz sayd. There is pleanty of evidence this isnt a witch hunt this is exposing a cheater and im glad we are doing this. You have todo everything in you power to protect the competive scene
from a retired hacker, yes i used every single hack in this game know exactly how everythign works and helped with the creation of some of the aspects. if he is hacking which (I DO NOT THINK HE DOES I ANALYZED EVERY REP), He is using A really good hack there are 2 types of camera locks one you hold the middle mouse button. IT LOCKS the camera where you press it i watched the replays it IS NOT LIKE THAT. That''s inot how it works ... .Camera lock works also by pressing it and the camera is fuly locked but moves around it wont ever stay in one place none of them work this way..., thing is the one mouse button is the one everyone uses its 3 seconds.
I also talked to a developer of the damn thing it is not how it works. It locks the screen and moves it around to tirck that we are actually macroing. Also he has a full production tab if he does hack he has no need to look at everything becuse he also has a minimap.... I dont know this kid i dont care about him but i had to tell you guys i dont think hes hacking and if feel bad for him. I as a reformed former hacker and its sad people can't give this guy a break, if he hacked i would be the first to say OMG HEH hacks, IMPA hacks etc this guy does not. I also stopped because eventually it makes you play like shit too reliant not knowing how to scout at all. It is a big advantage yes but it will not improve your play so to all the hackers readinfg this stop hacking please its gonan make you worse and ruin the community.
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse.
How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here.
I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here.
You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here.
You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread.
Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects.
But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others:
a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP.
You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades.
Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either..
What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known.
If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such.
This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity.
I'll admit that's mostly my sense of righteousness talking. If you post an accusation in my opinion it should be possible to hold you accountable for the outcome.
Accountable in what way? I think the actions in the replay were suspicious enough to at least raise the issue. You can argue whether it had to be done in a thread like this or by contacting his team first, but I don't think the person who raises questions and provides his interpretation should be held 'accountable' in any way.
The only thing I would criticize a bit is the OP should have worded things slightly less sensationalist. For example, he said something along the lines of 'Spades hacked in Brood War, guess what? He's back!', which is unnecessary and the latter part is of course up for debate, not a fact.
On June 05 2012 19:55 Geiko wrote: I can't read the whole thread, but how did Spades explain that he scanned the right base without knowing where it was ?
He said something about being already late with scouting, so he sent his SCV to one base and scanned the other one.
Which was funny, because if you watch the replay, the SCV on the way to scouting the base he didn't scan hadn't arrived yet.
On June 05 2012 18:52 Defacer wrote: TL should ask themselves: is this how Pro's and Teams should police themselves? Would TL allow one of their own players to undergo this level of scrutiny?
There are threads that should run wild and free and threads that should be heavily modded.
What makes TL -- and the SC2 community overall -- so special is that Pro's actually communicate with the fans and the online community. Allowing a player to be put on trial in the public square by an anonymous accuser, regardless of the evidence, is simply a bad precedent to set for the community.
I think it's very disingenuous and irresponsible for TL to pretend they can just be an non-existent third party in this discussion. They should either get involved in verifying or championing the legitimacy of the claim or shut down the thread, due to it's seriousness.
They're basically allowing another team's player to be ruined professionally on their website. I hope the mods know what their doing because it's a reflection of TL's position and how they believe the community should police players.
So true. The mods should have enough experience with the dangers of mob psychology to have allowed this thread to go on this long. The most prudent way to handle this would have been to shut down the thread while carrying out a speedy analysis with a bunch of pros, the mods, and possibly spades present, and then release some sort of final report so the public can then discuss it.
I guess that's the drawback to giving TL forumgoers credit for more intelligence than they deserve. Just reading through all the "herp derp this is hard evidence, guilty, case closed" threads makes my head hurt. This is why most courts don't consider a defendant's propensity to commit a crime based on past conviction. It's counter-intuitive, but it's the only way you can get an impartial decision, which most people on this forum are incapable of, it seems.
I'm not going to watch the replays or give my opinion about him being a hacker or not since my game knowledge and my hack knowledge on SC2 is poor or even non existent for the hacking part, but I just want to clarify something, The argument consisting of "look there he gets dropped and don't react, he can't be cheating" is completely stupid if you have any knowledge about hack, I have been part of anti cheat communities on other games for several years and the most common thing in hacking, is the Turn ON/OFF as much as possible to confuse people that might analyze the replay, on top of that I would like to add to a comment that TT1 made, saying that you need to watch 100 replays to prove he is guilty, it's completely false and it has never been like that in any fucking gaming community, saying that what the OP posted is not enough or not conclusive is fair, but telling people that it needs to be proved on 100 fucking replays is stupid to stay polite.
When reputable players start publicly speaking about another reputable player when it comes to maphacking, they generally already know 99.9% sure and just looking for definitive proof to show the community. This was a more common issue in broodwar. .In my bw experience, most of the hackers I encountered were very young, like under 16 years old who didn't really get it then developed into more serious gamers, I suppose they deserve a second chance, but if you are already an established progamer, you KNOW map-hacking is 100% unacceptable, if Spades is hacking he deserves to have his career completely destroyed. It is faaaaar worse then saying some offensive crap over streams or throwing a useless match to a friend(coca-byun).
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse.
How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here.
I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here.
You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here.
You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread.
Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects.
But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others:
a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP.
You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades.
Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either..
What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known.
If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such.
This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity.
I think when he is asking for the identity, he means towards the accuser, so regardless if its actually the OP is a smurf or a proxy, it is significant to know who is making this claim. A claim like this is huge, and doing so without your real ID is cowardly at best.
Imagine if at the end of the day we find Spades to be innocent, and then what happens? The actual accuser gets nothing while Spades still loses his career. Now that hardly seems fair.
OK look, I'm notoriously horrible at doing analogies, but I'm going to try one here anyway.
Things in parentheses are the starcraft things, while the rest is the actual analogy. Imagine the poster being a person seeing something illegal happening. Let's say it's someone selling drugs. He doesn't want to get into a lawsuit or anything as he's afraid (in case he's actually wrong (even though he doesn't think he is) the person posting is probably a community member who doesn't want a backlash), so he does the bare minimum and anonymously calls 911 (TeamLiquid) and tell them about the situation without mentioning his own name. Police shows up and finds / don't find any evidence of the crime. Along with them comes the press (the posters and viewers in this thread).
I hope this is a scenario that makes sense. This is an anonymous call. He should still be banned for having two accounts though, as that's against TL rules, but that's a whole other thing.
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse.
How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here.
I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here.
You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here.
You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread.
Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects.
But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others:
a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP.
You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades.
Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either..
What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known.
If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such.
This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity.
I'll admit that's mostly my sense of righteousness talking. If you post an accusation in my opinion it should be possible to hold you accountable for the outcome.
Accountable in what way? I think the actions in the replay were suspicious enough to at least raise the issue. You can argue whether it had to be done in a thread like this or by contacting his team first, but I don't think the person who raises questions and provides his interpretation should be held 'accountable' in any way.
The only thing I would criticize a bit is the OP should have worded things slightly less sensationalist. For example, he said something along the lines of 'Spades hacked in Brood War, guess what? He's back!', which is unnecessary and the latter part is of course up for debate, not a fact.
On June 05 2012 19:55 Geiko wrote: I can't read the whole thread, but how did Spades explain that he scanned the right base without knowing where it was ?
He said something about being already late with scouting, so he sent his SCV to one base and scanned the other one.
Which was funny, because if you watch the replay, the SCV on the way to scouting the base he didn't scan hadn't arrived yet.
True, which can be explained by what he said. He was already late, so didn't want to wait any further and therefore just scanned even before his SCV had arrived.
I mean, I don't like Spades position in this one but I guess that one could be explained that way, though it's somewhat odd indeed.
On June 05 2012 19:56 crxer wrote: from a retired hacker, yes i used every single hack in this game know exactly how everythign works and helped with the creation of some of the aspects. if he is hacking which (I DO NOT THINK HE DOES I ANALYZED EVERY REP), He is using A really good hack there are 2 types of camera locks one you hold the middle mouse button. IT LOCKS the camera where you press it i watched the replays it IS NOT LIKE THAT. That''s inot how it works ... .Camera lock works also by pressing it and the camera is fuly locked but moves around it wont ever stay in one place none of them work this way..., thing is the one mouse button is the one everyone uses its 3 seconds.
I also talked to a developer of the damn thing it is not how it works. It locks the screen and moves it around to tirck that we are actually macroing. Also he has a full production tab if he does hack he has no need to look at everything becuse he also has a minimap.... I dont know this kid i dont care about him but i had to tell you guys i dont think hes hacking and if feel bad for him. I as a reformed former hacker and its sad people can't give this guy a break, if he hacked i would be the first to say OMG HEH hacks, IMPA hacks etc this guy does not. I also stopped because eventually it makes you play like shit too reliant not knowing how to scout at all. It is a big advantage yes but it will not improve your play so to all the hackers readinfg this stop hacking please its gonan make you worse and ruin the community.
On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote: Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count?
The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts. He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character.
Exactly my thoughts. The OP is a coward.
Why is that a problem? It happens with anonymous tips to newspapers about stories or to the police about crimes all the time? If the option to remain anonymous wouldnt exist, a lot of stuff would never reach the surface. It might be cowardly, but hardly something to get upset over, nor something to take into account when discussing the topic.
Problem is, at least from my point of view, that the OP just made one post and that's it. He hasn't bothered to reply once more in this thread, considering the shitstorm he created, which would be nice. And doesn't the defendant has the right to face his accuser? I would like to hear more from OP and why he created this thread. Was it just to spite Spades or his moral demanded that he does that? If it was moral than it's funny that he used other/new account to do that.
Did you not see all the testaments from the players? did you not see catz, illusion etc do the replay analysis? the evidence is quite obvious, it doesn't matter if the OP doesn't reply to his own thread since already other people have already looked at the situation and replays and have made a general consensus that he did cheat. Any and ALL hacking needs to be taken very seriously, it does not matter if he's being cowardly.
On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote: I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic.
Stop being a fucking internet lawyer. Open you eyes listen to the pro´s watch the replay´s. Listen to what Illusion,Catz,Drewbie,TT1 sayd on there stream listen to what Merz sayd. There is pleanty of evidence this isnt a witch hunt this is exposing a cheater and im glad we are doing this. You have todo everything in you power to protect the competive scene
There is no evidence, though. There's nothing in these replays that says "Oh, that's definitely a hack, there's no doubt", such as CC's automatically using MULEs or SCV's being produced, because all the "evidence" as you call it can be coincidental, and thus, never definitive. Face it, you can't prove anything unless in-game actions are made that are not issued by Spades.
On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote: I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic.
1 replay that shows he hacks is pretty enough evidence? or is there a ratio requirement to be called a maphacker?
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse.
How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here.
I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here.
You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here.
You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread.
Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects.
But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others:
a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP.
You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades.
Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either..
What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known.
If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such.
This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity.
I think when he is asking for the identity, he means towards the accuser, so regardless if its actually the OP is a smurf or a proxy, it is significant to know who is making this claim. A claim like this is huge, and doing so without your real ID is cowardly at best.
Imagine if at the end of the day we find Spades to be innocent, and then what happens? The actual accuser gets nothing while Spades still loses his career. Now that hardly seems fair.
Who cares if its cowardly? The OP was right we should all thank him. Dont you understand how much dmg Spades has done to the scene and his further denial just fucks us even more. You can not prove this 100% but seriously anyone with half a brain can see all these little things just dont add op. All the evidence point towards the verdict guilty. And the fact that people are still defending him are indeed troublesome.
Then please explain teammerica's post. He (I hope I'm right with this pronoun) is clearly showing that pretty much the only definitive "proof" in this whole thread is not only inaccurate (as was stated later) but then continues to prove it himself by acquiring a maphack and then testing it for the same conclusion. It is people like this that I admire, since they have the initiative to examine such things.
You make the the claim that the OP was right. Throughout this thread, regardless of how many people are saying "GUILTY!!!!", there is no definitive conclusion. Even TT1 who was on Catz's analysis of the replays does not have a definite answer to the whether map hacks were ever used. I have no doubt that probably more than half of the people who are posting in this thread claiming maphacks were used haven't actually watched the replays to form their own conclusion, but rather are just bandwagoning with the majority. After such a sensationalist title both on TL and Reddit, its inevitable that the majority of posters enter this with already the guilty verdict in mind.
Do you have any idea how much damage this has down if at the end of the day Spades is found to be innocent? At this moment, no conclusion has been drawn, and yet regardless, Spades will no longer find a future in SC2. Unlike Destiny and Orb, who were popular enough to survive their witchhunts, Spades will hardly make it through this. As you say yourself, its impossible to prove 100%, but the little things that don't add up aren't conclusive enough to justify someone losing their career.
The fact that people are defending him, regardless of all the people that are instantly saying guilty is what I love about this community, because at least with some of them, these threads can result in a conversation instead of some mob mentality idiocy.
On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote: I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic.
1 replay that shows he hacks is pretty enough evidence? or is there a ratio requirement to be called a maphacker?
I know fuck all about either tvt nor hacking, but if tt1 says he needs to look at 100 or so replays to be sure about it, i think we should listen to his opinion no?
On June 05 2012 19:56 crxer wrote: from a retired hacker, yes i used every single hack in this game know exactly how everythign works and helped with the creation of some of the aspects. if he is hacking which (I DO NOT THINK HE DOES I ANALYZED EVERY REP), He is using A really good hack there are 2 types of camera locks one you hold the middle mouse button. IT LOCKS the camera where you press it i watched the replays it IS NOT LIKE THAT. That''s inot how it works ... .Camera lock works also by pressing it and the camera is fuly locked but moves around it wont ever stay in one place none of them work this way..., thing is the one mouse button is the one everyone uses its 3 seconds.
I also talked to a developer of the damn thing it is not how it works. It locks the screen and moves it around to tirck that we are actually macroing. Also he has a full production tab if he does hack he has no need to look at everything becuse he also has a minimap.... I dont know this kid i dont care about him but i had to tell you guys i dont think hes hacking and if feel bad for him. I as a reformed former hacker and its sad people can't give this guy a break, if he hacked i would be the first to say OMG HEH hacks, IMPA hacks etc this guy does not. I also stopped because eventually it makes you play like shit too reliant not knowing how to scout at all. It is a big advantage yes but it will not improve your play so to all the hackers readinfg this stop hacking please its gonan make you worse and ruin the community.
And you are? and your credibility is? Saying something over the internet without any proof, how do you expect anyone to believe you? lol.
EPT
