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On March 04 2012 05:30 Alacast wrote:
If people stop watching because they're too nationally biased to care about people from other countries, they should probably go back to 1914. People are people and skill is skill. I'd watch a fucking rabbit play this game all day if he was good at it, who cares that he's from a different species?
Fuck no, that'd be epic. BunnyCraft: Prepare to get humped!
But eh yeah. Wow. Always boggles me how many people can't just appreciate the game.
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On March 04 2012 05:32 Belha wrote:
This have been said by many (me included) a lot of time ago, i remember Catz being one of them.
Is pretty pretty obvious for any cold logical minded person that not banning the koreans in all the foreign scene is bad for the future of e-sports outside korea.
Korean e-sport teams (players + organization) take their time to evolve, from 2000 to present. +10 years.
2011: Now with a big scene (sc2) outside korea, we are just paying the evolved, stronger beings to take the tourneys, the money, and the foreign chance/hope to balance the gap.
Foreigns-only teams eventualy will fall aganist this most developed rivals, so their only chance is to hire those koreans players or disband.
But this is just strengthen the circle: more koreans crushing the chance of foreigns to evolve. (evolve, aka develop the methods and organizations/teams that after a decade allow the koreans to dominate the game)
Eventualy the scene will indeed be "depleted".
I blame the tourney organizators that started this "circle", like mlg, who in seek of more income, start to invite koreans.
However, can we blame them? Is people that in forums and in polls cried out for more koreans.
So at the end, imho, yes, we all are killing esports.
So you're solution is to segregate and set up paper champs in foreigner only leagues until the Korean scene dies? How exactly do you see the skill gap closing if we start shutting doors to interaction so our players can no longer practice with and learn from the best?
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On March 04 2012 05:36 Nouar wrote:
imo problem are not the teams, but the scouting. There is no longer the network of small LANs we had 6/7 years ago when players bloomed, trained, thrived etc... Most of the tournaments now are invite only, with maybe 1/2 spots up for qualifier grabs. Only exception would be MLG and IPL open bracket, but it's just not enough.
We used to have 2/3 LANs each weekend in France at that time, the best players were not ALL present at each and every one and it put on the (small) spotlight other players and allowed them to grow.
Now, there is... ladder and online tourneys. it's not *bad* but... just not enough. (playhem, <3 <3 <3)
I've seen a lot of nonsense in this thread already, but oh my. Yes, there are a lot of invitationals for marketing purposes amongst other things, but don't think for one second that managers don't pay attention to the rest of the field.
I used to do it myself and I still see a lot of unknowns making a name for themselves. It might not be visible to you, but it's just as important.
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On March 04 2012 05:39 schimmetje wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 05:30 Alacast wrote:
If people stop watching because they're too nationally biased to care about people from other countries, they should probably go back to 1914. People are people and skill is skill. I'd watch a fucking rabbit play this game all day if he was good at it, who cares that he's from a different species? Fuck no, that'd be epic. BunnyCraft: Prepare to get humped! But eh yeah. Wow. Always boggles me how many people can't just appreciate the game.
This. Those people are just as responsible for "Killing Esports" as the organizers and teams that pander to Koreans, pros that don't produce, viewers that just care for the game, society that frowns on gaming, jocks, bullies, misogynistic jerks online, and lack of LAN support in SC2. *rolls eyes*
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On March 04 2012 05:26 Blennd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 04:46 jj33 wrote:On March 04 2012 04:44 Blennd wrote:On March 04 2012 03:39 Zrana wrote:
This thread is so fucking weird.
Everyone is like "it's westerners vs koreans" and thinking that westerners don't want to watch koreans play.
Maybe that's true of Johnny Bronzeleaguer who thinks that koreans just play mindlessly or cheesy but most people just want to watch good starcraft. I don't give a crap what country the player i'm watching comes from as long as he shows good games.
Why are so many people obsessed with making esports big in the western world? If it happens at all it's going to be a very gradual process. Would you enjoy starcraft more if more people in your country watched it? If so, that seems oddly racsist. Just enjoy the game, please. Wanting to enjoy a sport without being shunned by the mainstream of your society is racist? Wanting the thing you enjoy to also be enjoyed by at least some of the people who are culturally, geographically, and linguistically close to you is racist? Is going to a barcraft racist? So sick of the attitude that equates wanting the foreign scene to grow with hating koreans. Oh please. flip the situation, if Koreans were struggling and people made threads saying "let's help koreans" I bet you'd be in there laughing at them. Oh please. If people started rounding up Jews in your hometown and gassing them to death, I'd bet you'd be right there applauding them. See what I did there? Generally in an argument if you are going to assume completely asinine things based on absolutely nothing, it's better to have them be something nice about a person instead of something mean.
Let's keep this discussion civil, and making arguments based off of genocide simply doesn't belong here.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On March 04 2012 05:32 Belha wrote:
This have been said by many (me included) a lot of time ago, i remember Catz being one of them.
Is pretty pretty obvious for any cold logical minded person that not banning the koreans in all the foreign scene is bad for the future of e-sports outside korea.
Korean e-sport teams (players + organization) take their time to evolve, from 2000 to present. +10 years.
2011: Now with a big scene (sc2) outside korea, we are just paying the evolved, stronger beings to take the tourneys, the money, and the foreign chance/hope to balance the gap.
Foreigns-only teams eventualy will fall aganist this most developed rivals, so their only chance is to hire those koreans players or disband.
But this is just strengthen the circle: more koreans crushing the chance of foreigns to evolve. (evolve, aka develop the methods and organizations/teams that after a decade allow the koreans to dominate the game)
Eventualy the scene will indeed be "depleted".
I blame the tourney organizators that started this "circle", like mlg, who in seek of more income, start to invite koreans.
However, can we blame them? Is people that in forums and in polls cried out for more koreans.
So at the end, imho, yes, we all are killing esports.
you make it sound like Koreans are genetically better than any other country to play starcraft (evolved, stronger beings lol)
should we get mad that Europeans are destroying the competition in tennis? or that Americans are dominating in basketball?
ofc catz would want some sort of segregated tournament but it's ironic cuz he's from South America. Where do you draw the line? No Koreans allowed, separating one country from tournaments? Whites versus Asians? Why would anyone want that. If you look at the larger scale of things, perhaps teams wouldn't be able to pick up and support these foreigners if it weren't for the Korean scene due to the fact that they are generating a lot of exposure and fan interest to the game. If MLG was only NA, there would be less interest and the prize pot would be extremely low and less money put into the scene.
Also, with Korean involvement, foreigners are having to step up there game which means better quality of players in our scene and better quality games to be played.
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To tripper688, don't get me wrong, the person that has more practice should always have an advantage. I know there are non Koreans training in Korea now, and in the past players such as Nony, Idra and Ret have lived and trained with pro teams. If these players are aware of how much practice time is needed to become better than the next guy, you would think they would imbue their teams with this practice regimen. I just feel that I see some players that don't have a skill ceiling that is perceived to be very high, yet they are on pro teams, playing as much if not more than others, and they are getting worse results than others. At the end of the day, I'm sure you can't allow yourself to get out-practiced by the Koreans, but I still don't think we have the most talented players playing. Given how unstable and unestablished the scene is, I have no idea why it would attract anyone that is 18 or older.
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The amount of hand wringing going on in this thread is amazing. I could well imagine this delivered by politicians to a governmental structure somewhere.
"Well, frankly I'm worried. I'm worried about the plight of these underprivileged gamers. I'm worried about the inequality of the trade gap of teams with players. We need regulations here and stimulus money there or ... or ... the whole thing ... could COLLAPSE!"
On March 04 2012 04:16 jj33 wrote:
I swear you people who make threads about how you care so much about the growth of "e-sports" are so immature.
What are you people suggesting? Segregation? Ban koreans from foreign tournaments and limit them to joining foreign teams?
If anything that'll kill esports. NObody would take tournaments seriously.
You guys remind me of America back decades ago when Black people just started to play in the NFL/NBA etc and how the majority was against it and wanted segregation.
If Koreans are the best at sc2, which they are, then they reap the benefits. simple as that.
I don't think anyone is even considering any type of segregation or banning Koreans. All that we ask is for organizations to invest a bit more in foreigner talent. Very different. Let the Koreans come, but give foreign pros the resources so that they can compete.
This is exactly what we are talking about. Hand wringing. Asking organizations to, out of the goodness of their hearts, invest money where money is not warranted. jj33 made that excellent point ... the obvious sorta "policy decision" to remedy this lamentable, lamentable situation is to restrict the entry of Korean-born gamers into tournaments--a preposterous idea. The reverse is the correct one, either foreigners train hard, train in team houses, work on tourney results and rival the Koreans in this, or they continue to be in the minority of recruits from the major teams.
This Korean thing is a challenge to foreigners to step up and train like the best to compete with the best. InControl previously brought up on a SOTG the difficulties of going to university + training to be a progamer or working a job to support yourself + training to be a progamer. In America, you're expected to turn 18 and get more education or get a job. The dedicate oneself to progaming is not a largely accepted life choice. I'll identify that as the primary hurdle to a Western talent pool on par with South Korea. Sputter on about injustice and the slow death of the scene. SC2 General Chat / Blogs built for that =)
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On March 04 2012 05:12 willoc wrote:
Good post. Don't agree. For multiple reasons.
One reason is this whole "forced national hero" through acquisition doesn't work. A player isn't going to get good just because he/she managed to get picked up by a team. White-Ra, Naniwa, Stephano didn't require this.
Another is that we don't need national heroes. I live in Canada. My favorite players are Koreans and White-Ra. I used to like Huk but not so much anymore (probably because of the switch to EG which seemed to have changed his priorities). It wasn't because he was Canadian, it was because he had originality, discipline, passion and skill. Some of those seem to have declined now. I'm sure that a number of people will only root for their national hero but that seems rather strange due to the relatively small size of the scene compared to sports like soccer where there are numerous players per nation (and they don't necessarily hail from that nation either). Maybe national heroes would be a good idea to promote at a later stage? I dunno.
Regardless, I would rather have my teams stick to picking up players with skill/attitude/passion rather than focusing on "player from non-Korean place".
Are some teams doing stupid things (unrealistic salaries)? Yes. This will always happen. Those teams will fail in the future where popularity isn't a deciding factor anymore.
Popularity is always the deciding factor in any entertainment business.
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On March 04 2012 05:59 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 05:12 willoc wrote:
Good post. Don't agree. For multiple reasons.
One reason is this whole "forced national hero" through acquisition doesn't work. A player isn't going to get good just because he/she managed to get picked up by a team. White-Ra, Naniwa, Stephano didn't require this.
Another is that we don't need national heroes. I live in Canada. My favorite players are Koreans and White-Ra. I used to like Huk but not so much anymore (probably because of the switch to EG which seemed to have changed his priorities). It wasn't because he was Canadian, it was because he had originality, discipline, passion and skill. Some of those seem to have declined now. I'm sure that a number of people will only root for their national hero but that seems rather strange due to the relatively small size of the scene compared to sports like soccer where there are numerous players per nation (and they don't necessarily hail from that nation either). Maybe national heroes would be a good idea to promote at a later stage? I dunno.
Regardless, I would rather have my teams stick to picking up players with skill/attitude/passion rather than focusing on "player from non-Korean place".
Are some teams doing stupid things (unrealistic salaries)? Yes. This will always happen. Those teams will fail in the future where popularity isn't a deciding factor anymore. Popularity is always the deciding factor in any entertainment business.
Not for winning tournaments =).
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and DjWheat will be sounding like crazy doomsayer on lo3 No worries, he always sounds like that.  And we love him.
Anyway, I still don't see the harm of most teams having one or two Koreans to bring around the working ethics for the others; but if it goes further than that and most teams become predominantly Korean, then there will be no international scene yeah. On the other hand, BW is only at a pro level in Korea, but still it's the best esports scene even now, so esports is safe either way.
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On March 04 2012 05:39 schimmetje wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 05:30 Alacast wrote:
If people stop watching because they're too nationally biased to care about people from other countries, they should probably go back to 1914. People are people and skill is skill. I'd watch a fucking rabbit play this game all day if he was good at it, who cares that he's from a different species? Fuck no, that'd be epic. BunnyCraft: Prepare to get humped! But eh yeah. Wow. Always boggles me how many people can't just appreciate the game.
Becuase in sports people will allways root for there home team thats just how it is. You think people form Liverpool would root for Barcelona becuase they got the best players?
Ofcourse not..
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On March 04 2012 03:00 Full.tilt wrote:
I don't think I'd put any blame on foreign teams because they are competing with other teams and will generally do anything they can to form and build the strongest team they can. It's a slightly more grey area where tournament organisers are concerned like MLG and IPL though in my opinion.
The more Koreans, who live and work for Korean teams, they invite and allow to attempt to qualify in open brackets the quicker SC2 will die out in the foreign scene, or at least stop growing and decline to a much smaller pool of dedicated players. Keep major foreign tournaments more regional. Allow Koreans to qualify in open tournaments but I think the number's must be limited in some way or just attempt to discourage so many from travelling over by having more barriers to entry. If more than half the final bracket is Korean I start to lose interest quite rapidly.
Obviously I love watching the GSL because I expect to see the very best players playing at the highest level, as a viewer I have different expectations for foreigner tournaments, wanting to see the best foreigners playing each other is higher up my list of what I want to see.
What I dread is seeing large numbers of Koreans dominating the final brackets of every major tournament all over the world, because then everything is the same, protect the foreign competitive scene.
How would a tournament that doesn't let Koreans play gain any kind of prestige?
If anything, they'd only be able to invite players from a single country because excluding koreans only would be seen as incredibly racist, causing only more damage to the scene.
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On March 04 2012 03:57 bOneSeven wrote:
People who disagree here are not really taking their time to think this trough. Excuse me, how many views had the SPL last time I saw it ? And yes, bw players are perhaps even better than sc2 ( they obviously have better mechanics and better training system ) so you would think ...
Host an MLG with top20 koreans ( constantly, after 3-4 editions ) and see how many viewers you get, most of the viewers will watch it because Husky is casting or because Day9 is casting or because Tastossis will be there, but in no way because they want to see the koreans play. I really enjoy bw ( haven't spent that much time looking at it, perhaps 3-4 games/week ) and I was a subscriber to GOMTV "back in the day". So the guys who will be watching MLG with top 20 koreans will mereley be hardcore fans. Can you hold a HomestoryCUP if only koreans atend ? No.
What teams need to do is get prohouses in SEA/NA/EU with 8-15 players and really start practicing. Milenium kinda did that with Stephano/Bling/Adelscot/Tarson and it seems to me that Stephano and Bling actually improved in this time ( and that with only 4 players, imagine with 8+ ). The problem is ( don't really know the financial issues ) that you'd probably need more money to invest in all the stuff...+ prohouse in korea exist also because all events are in korea so they wouldn't need to worry about travling for 1k$+ for each player and so and so...anyways...
Lol just tell me koreans casting games at HSC wasn't a highlight of the event and an awesome part of it.
I, for one, love to see koreans playing. Seeing good games is what's important. Koreans bring good games, and a good dose of awkwardness/entertainment when you know how to deal with them. Foreigners bring great stories, etc, but excuse me, apart from a few of them, from my point of view, their games are just not *that* interesting. The exception to that rule for me is obviously foreigner vs korean :p but foreigner vs foreigner? Meeh..
The fact that tournaments who don't bring koreans in are not held in a very high regard by the community and have less views clearly contradict your point.
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This thread is a real bummer.
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EPT
