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Hello all. Firstly I just want to say that I lurk here often, though I don't post a lot. I have read most of the relevant threads on the perceived problems of SC2 to this point, obviously including mbs and automine discussions. Here I am attempting to take a more big picture approach to thinking about SC2.
Ultimately, I think we can all agree that we care so passionately about mbs and the decline of macro because it is the major defining factor that makes the skill curve of SC:BW what it is. It is that skill curve which defines BW, and why it is still played as much as it is at this point in its life cycle. The real skill, though, is being able to both macro and micro efficiently. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum that, if told to macro up a 200 supply army on an empty map, could do so in a reasonably close amount of time to the pros. But what makes the pros as good as they are is that they can also harass their opponent and fight battles without losing significant time on their macroing. Obviously we all know this already. The point is that I've come to believe that the real defining characteristic of starcraft is multitasking moreso than macro or micro itself... that macro and micro are aspects of multitasking.
With all that as a basic introduction, I'd like to propose, as others have done before, that mbs and automine are not inherently bad, provided that the time and attention players spend on those things in BW is replaced in some other manner. Blizzard, further, has stated that they both wish to decrease the amount of time people spend managing their base, AND have stated that maintaining a lengthy skill curve is also important to them. To me this can be accomplished, but Blizzard is not designing the game in a way that would accommodate it.
Why not design the game in such a way that multiple front fighting is the rule rather than the aberration. Design it around the idea that one army cannot effectively cover all of one sides important assets. A lot of this would come down to map design I admit, perhaps bigger maps with longer distances between expansions are the answer. But even with appropriate maps, it seems to me that there is just too damned much mobility to make this sort of playstyle work. I have not played the game, and perhaps those that have can touch on this, but it does not seem to me that there is any more, and perhaps less, punishment for finding your army out of position than there was in BW. To me, at this stage, this sort of play is what could revive my interest in SC2. If the game were designed in such a way that high level players were required to maintain 3 or more "armies" in different places both effectively and simultaneously, then perhaps we could restore the nice wide skill curve that we are all used to.
Thanks for reading... that is all
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Is mobility mechanics such as warp in and the nydus worm a good thing for the game? Thats a good question.
The macro aspect of the game has completely changed. I think you need automining and mbs because macro has become so much harder with these new game mechanics.
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imo sc2 should focus more on micro than macro so the new mechanics like mbs are needed and we want to see more action in the games
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The problem with small and split armies is that if they are to engage with a unsplit army, even if the player with the split army has a larger total army, the small armies would be completely destroyed. With larger maps, the distance between the small armies would be greater and the small parts would not be able to effectively work together because of the large distances between them.
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On January 01 2009 13:11 wiseA wrote:
imo sc2 should focus more on micro than macro so the new mechanics like mbs are needed and we want to see more action in the games
No. It's not that easy. The cool thing is that we could never do the things the progamers do (good macro and multitask + micro).
But if the nice micro whatever things are easy to do, it's not cool anymore.
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On January 01 2009 13:11 wiseA wrote:
imo sc2 should focus more on micro than macro so the new mechanics like mbs are needed and we want to see more action in the games
Go play WC3 you noob.
SC is about both micro and macro, 50-50%, half-half, do you understand or do you need me to draw you a picture?
Being more micro oriented just limits the styles of play, as well as strategy and tactics!
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On January 01 2009 13:56 SlickR12345 wrote:
Go play WC3 you noob.
SC is about both micro and macro, 50-50%, half-half, do you understand or do you need me to draw you a picture?
Being more micro oriented just limits the styles of play, as well as strategy and tactics!
Easy there. Your right about starcraft being about both micro and macro but there is no need to be a jerk about it. Try and start the new year on a good foot.
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On January 01 2009 14:04 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 13:56 SlickR12345 wrote:
Go play WC3 you noob.
SC is about both micro and macro, 50-50%, half-half, do you understand or do you need me to draw you a picture?
Being more micro oriented just limits the styles of play, as well as strategy and tactics! Easy there. Your right about starcraft being about both micro and macro but there is no need to be a jerk about it. Try and start the new year on a good foot.
suck it, i'd start the new year how ever i want and the least i could care is what i'm going to write to a stupid forum noob.
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On January 01 2009 14:06 SlickR12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 14:04 Archerofaiur wrote:On January 01 2009 13:56 SlickR12345 wrote:
Go play WC3 you noob.
SC is about both micro and macro, 50-50%, half-half, do you understand or do you need me to draw you a picture?
Being more micro oriented just limits the styles of play, as well as strategy and tactics! Easy there. Your right about starcraft being about both micro and macro but there is no need to be a jerk about it. Try and start the new year on a good foot. suck it, i'd start the new year how ever i want and the least i could care is what i'm going to write to a stupid forum noob.
Are you going to slit your wrists when the sequel to the game you've played for 10 years isn't exactly how you want it? What are you going to do the next 10 years?
Anyways, if the game is as easy for pros as everyone thinks, pros can just 2v2 each other with 1 player controlling each side, I think that would be amazing to watch.
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On January 01 2009 13:42 naonao wrote:
The problem with small and split armies is that if they are to engage with a unsplit army, even if the player with the split army has a larger total army, the small armies would be completely destroyed. With larger maps, the distance between the small armies would be greater and the small parts would not be able to effectively work together because of the large distances between them.
I had thought of that, and ultimately you are probably right. I suppose when you think about it longer distances between expos would just result in smaller games because people wouldn't expand.
It may not be the end all solution for all this, but I do still think that increasing the importance of army positioning (in terms of where your army is at any given time, not in terms of your unit's positions vs the enemies, if that makes sense) would certainly not hurt things, and with all the mobility options it doesn't *seem* (again, I haven't played) as though its all that hard to get a large army from one place to another in a relatively short amount of time.
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On January 01 2009 14:06 SlickR12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 14:04 Archerofaiur wrote:On January 01 2009 13:56 SlickR12345 wrote:
Go play WC3 you noob.
SC is about both micro and macro, 50-50%, half-half, do you understand or do you need me to draw you a picture?
Being more micro oriented just limits the styles of play, as well as strategy and tactics! Easy there. Your right about starcraft being about both micro and macro but there is no need to be a jerk about it. Try and start the new year on a good foot. suck it, i'd start the new year how ever i want and the least i could care is what i'm going to write to a stupid forum noob.
Team can we try to get this guy excited enough to say something that would warrant a ban?
How's life in Macedonia fuckface? I read you guys have the second worst health care in Europe which is saying a lot.
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Mobility do not prevent split armies. The inability for smaller armies to fight bigger ones prevent split armies.
If a smaller army actually beats a bigger, concentrated one, than no one would ever NOT split their army. Imagine Templar wars where the only unit is templars, and it is unimaginable that people would move in a ball get get them destroyed with one storm by the opposition. Splitting is absolutely necessary.
The lazy method to get this into the game would to TvT-ize the game by giving a small number of defenders/units in right position (seige tanks + turrets) a huge advantage and make a larger army relatively useless in improving unit exchange ratio. (it doesn't matter if you outnumber a seige line by 1v3 or 1v10, you'd still lose around the same number of tanks breaking it) This is easiest with units that does not rely on their HP that much to do damage (banelings, scourge, tanks) or some kind of game altering spell. (darkswarm)
Other choices is include massive area attacks for everyone, map totally restrictive with a ton of impassibles so that big armies don't fit and so on. Air units will either have to be a niche or suffer from some serious air splash to prevent stack of doom. (since non-stacking air is considered unacceptable)
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Fundamentally, harass play is the inverse of timing push based plays. Timing push is about that one knock out punch, while harass is about a thousand small papercuts.
If blizzard would nerf ever timing push based strategy, harass may become the only choice. The question is: would players accept this?
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On January 01 2009 13:45 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 13:11 wiseA wrote:
imo sc2 should focus more on micro than macro so the new mechanics like mbs are needed and we want to see more action in the games No. It's not that easy. The cool thing is that we could never do the things the progamers do (good macro and multitask + micro). But if the nice micro whatever things are easy to do, it's not cool anymore.
Blizzard have said that they want to appeal to both the casual and progamer. Have a bit of faith, I'm sure they will make it easy to learn but hard to master. I think we will see some War3 concepts (the micro aspects, the mothership/queen as a hero like unit) in the game because of the people who are the developers but it will still be Starcraft - hopefully.
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On January 01 2009 14:06 SlickR12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 14:04 Archerofaiur wrote:On January 01 2009 13:56 SlickR12345 wrote:
Go play WC3 you noob.
SC is about both micro and macro, 50-50%, half-half, do you understand or do you need me to draw you a picture?
Being more micro oriented just limits the styles of play, as well as strategy and tactics! Easy there. Your right about starcraft being about both micro and macro but there is no need to be a jerk about it. Try and start the new year on a good foot. suck it, i'd start the new year how ever i want and the least i could care is what i'm going to write to a stupid forum noob.
what a faggot you are
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On January 01 2009 17:50 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 14:06 SlickR12345 wrote:On January 01 2009 14:04 Archerofaiur wrote:On January 01 2009 13:56 SlickR12345 wrote:
Go play WC3 you noob.
SC is about both micro and macro, 50-50%, half-half, do you understand or do you need me to draw you a picture?
Being more micro oriented just limits the styles of play, as well as strategy and tactics! Easy there. Your right about starcraft being about both micro and macro but there is no need to be a jerk about it. Try and start the new year on a good foot. suck it, i'd start the new year how ever i want and the least i could care is what i'm going to write to a stupid forum noob. what a faggot you are
Go team go! Second squad move out!
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On January 01 2009 16:51 SWPIGWANG wrote:
Mobility do not prevent split armies. The inability for smaller armies to fight bigger ones prevent split armies.
If a smaller army actually beats a bigger, concentrated one, than no one would ever NOT split their army. Imagine Templar wars where the only unit is templars, and it is unimaginable that people would move in a ball get get them destroyed with one storm by the opposition. Splitting is absolutely necessary.
The lazy method to get this into the game would to TvT-ize the game by giving a small number of defenders/units in right position (seige tanks + turrets) a huge advantage and make a larger army relatively useless in improving unit exchange ratio. (it doesn't matter if you outnumber a seige line by 1v3 or 1v10, you'd still lose around the same number of tanks breaking it) This is easiest with units that does not rely on their HP that much to do damage (banelings, scourge, tanks) or some kind of game altering spell. (darkswarm)
Other choices is include massive area attacks for everyone, map totally restrictive with a ton of impassibles so that big armies don't fit and so on. Air units will either have to be a niche or suffer from some serious air splash to prevent stack of doom. (since non-stacking air is considered unacceptable)
------------
Fundamentally, harass play is the inverse of timing push based plays. Timing push is about that one knock out punch, while harass is about a thousand small papercuts.
If blizzard would nerf ever timing push based strategy, harass may become the only choice. The question is: would players accept this?
Great post
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Sweden33719 Posts
On January 01 2009 14:06 SlickR12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 14:04 Archerofaiur wrote:On January 01 2009 13:56 SlickR12345 wrote:
Go play WC3 you noob.
SC is about both micro and macro, 50-50%, half-half, do you understand or do you need me to draw you a picture?
Being more micro oriented just limits the styles of play, as well as strategy and tactics! Easy there. Your right about starcraft being about both micro and macro but there is no need to be a jerk about it. Try and start the new year on a good foot. suck it, i'd start the new year how ever i want and the least i could care is what i'm going to write to a stupid forum noob.
ORLY?
Well you can start it somewhere else then, see you in a week.
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too much mobility makes sc2 play like wc3, armies will just teleport all over the place refusing to fight each other
no point taking control of strategic locations on the map if you can just "warp in" an entire fresh army anywhere across the map in an instant, a single hidden pylon is all it takes
no point of positioning your units or flanking the enemy if you can just blink your entire army of stalkers out of battle in an instant every time you position looks slightly bad
yes in sc we have arbiters and nydus but that is ultra late game tech and they give limited mobility because of energy and creep requirements, however stuff like warp in are unlimited use once you put down a single pylon
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On January 02 2009 11:14 poor newb wrote:
too much mobility makes sc2 play like wc3, armies will just teleport all over the place refusing to fight each other
no point taking control of strategic locations on the map if you can just "warp in" an entire fresh army anywhere across the map in an instant, a single hidden pylon is all it takes
no point of positioning your units or flanking the enemy if you can just blink your entire army of stalkers out of battle in an instant every time you position looks slightly bad
yes in sc we have arbiters and nydus but that is ultra late game tech and they give limited mobility because of energy and creep requirements, however stuff like warp in are unlimited use once you put down a single pylon
You can only warp in a very limited amount of units at a time of which this just makes scouting all the more important and hopefully create some very cool strategies.
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A concern no one has mentioned is how multi-front combat will affect SC2 as a spectator game. It's possible it's just too hard to track two battles at once. Commentators today sometimes miss important things already.
But besides that, I really like the idea of multi-front combat. It pushes the need for multitasking to a much higher level.
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EPT
