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This thread is for discussing recent bans. Don't discuss other topics here. Take it to website feedback if you disagree with a ban or want to raise an issue. Keep it civil.NOTE: For those of you who want to find the actual ABL thread where the bans are posted. Please look in here: https://tl.net/forum/closed-threads/ |
On July 25 2013 04:16 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 03:53 Oukka wrote:So I come to TL and see 120+ posts in ABL and then I see this thread. 1+1=2 doesn't it? Apparently not, I think there was only two bans in the whole thread. I'm interested in what got this "i zig zag around you" guy nuked, as I see only this temp ban here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422475¤tpage=5#96I guess the final reason was some PM with moderation, but there is also a PBUish feel in him, seeing how he's had the account for 3 weeks and posts in places where I would not dare to venture after such a short membership. Looks like you haven't read those 120+ posts. But it's ok, here's the most important part regarding zig zag: Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. Him on Twitter
Some people are just winners like that. Oh to be young, poor and with unlimited free time again.
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damn hes angry
but he doesnt have a lot of imagination
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On July 25 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:16 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 25 2013 03:53 Oukka wrote:So I come to TL and see 120+ posts in ABL and then I see this thread. 1+1=2 doesn't it? Apparently not, I think there was only two bans in the whole thread. I'm interested in what got this "i zig zag around you" guy nuked, as I see only this temp ban here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422475¤tpage=5#96I guess the final reason was some PM with moderation, but there is also a PBUish feel in him, seeing how he's had the account for 3 weeks and posts in places where I would not dare to venture after such a short membership. Looks like you haven't read those 120+ posts. But it's ok, here's the most important part regarding zig zag: On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. Him on Twitter Some people are just winners like that. Oh to be young, poor and with unlimited free time again.
I know right, it probably takes like 5 to 6 hours to read 6 pages of posts in this thread.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 25 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it. it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject. Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:35 Plexa wrote:On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated: So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others. You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread. i said you cant be banned arbitrarily. the normals rules still apply.
I'll keep it short:
a) This isn't a license, I don't know what your legal training is on the subject or how you come to that conclusion that it is anything other then a service.
b) TL+ users are moderated following the exact same rules as any non TL+ user since they are subject to the exact same Terms of Service. How you come to the conclusion that paying for TL+ would somehow alter or not apply the websites ToS is unclear to me. It is nothing but a paid expansion on already existing free services. Both are made available under the same ToS.
edit: I have extensive legal training on the subject.
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On July 25 2013 04:24 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays.
I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it. it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject. On July 25 2013 02:35 Plexa wrote:On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated: So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others. You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread. i said you cant be banned arbitrarily. the normals rules still apply. I'll keep it short: a) This isn't a license, I don't know what your legal training is on the subject or how you come to that conclusion that it is anything other then a service. b) TL+ users are moderated following the exact same rules as any non TL+ user since they are subject to the exact same Terms of Service. How you come to the conclusion that paying for TL+ would somehow alter or not apply the websites ToS is unclear to me. It is nothing but a paid expansion on already existing free services. Both are made available under the same ToS. edit: I have extensive legal training on the subject.
dAPhREAk is an practicing attorney and I think he works in civil litigation, though I don’t know what field. And you can call it what you like, but you are offering some sort of service and it has to have a name of some form.
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Well, the question would be, is access to the TL+ forum illegal without TL+ status? If so, I believe TL+ counts as a license in some form. In a US legal sense, the act of opening ones' home door and letting someone in counts as an act of bare licensing. Access to the TL+ forum seems like a similar arrangement.
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On July 25 2013 04:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:24 Nyovne wrote:On July 25 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[quote]
I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right.
actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays.
the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it. it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject. On July 25 2013 02:35 Plexa wrote:On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays.
I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated: So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others. You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread. i said you cant be banned arbitrarily. the normals rules still apply. I'll keep it short: a) This isn't a license, I don't know what your legal training is on the subject or how you come to that conclusion that it is anything other then a service. b) TL+ users are moderated following the exact same rules as any non TL+ user since they are subject to the exact same Terms of Service. How you come to the conclusion that paying for TL+ would somehow alter or not apply the websites ToS is unclear to me. It is nothing but a paid expansion on already existing free services. Both are made available under the same ToS. edit: I have extensive legal training on the subject. dAPhREAk is an practicing attorney and I think he works in civil litigation, though I don’t know what field. And you can call it what you like, but you are offering some sort of service and it has to have a name of some form.
its either contract or corporate law, so hes hardly a novice on this issue
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On July 25 2013 04:24 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays.
I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it. it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject. On July 25 2013 02:35 Plexa wrote:On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated: So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others. You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread. i said you cant be banned arbitrarily. the normals rules still apply. I'll keep it short: a) This isn't a license, I don't know what your legal training is on the subject or how you come to that conclusion that it is anything other then a service. b) TL+ users are moderated following the exact same rules as any non TL+ user since they are subject to the exact same Terms of Service. How you come to the conclusion that paying for TL+ would somehow alter or not apply the websites ToS is unclear to me. It is nothing but a paid expansion on already existing free services. Both are made available under the same ToS. edit: I have extensive legal training on the subject.
a) its a license to use the website supported by consideration (i.e., its a contract). i am not sure why people keep disputing this minor point considering the terms of service of teamliquid.net call it a license (although that is no authority on the law). i am a civil lawyer in California and am also admitted to practice New York law (teamliquid has a NY choice of law provision).
b) i did not say what you are saying. people seem to be lazily misinterpreting what i am saying. tl+ purchasers have purchased a product subject to the terms and conditions of the site. you can take away that product pursuant to the terms and conditions of the site, but you absolutely cannot take away that product pursuant to some arbitrary decision--that is illegal. if you think you have the right to take away paid for tl+ for arbitrary reasons, i question your "extensive legal training." if you are assuming that tl.net's rules allow for arbitrary decisions then you are going to be in conflict with the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing, which is also illegal, and its highly questionable whether thats even the case.
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Germany25657 Posts
I think it is time to take this to Website Feedback if you want to keep discussing this at length 
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On July 25 2013 03:32 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 03:02 ComaDose wrote:
I bet you could get banned for sueing teamliquid.
good. You probably would.
I'm really tired of everyone constantly threatening everyone.;
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Mysticalnubcake was just banned by KadaverBB.
That account was created on 2013-07-25 03:52:04 and had 2 posts.
Reason: PBU
Although he was a PBU, I appreicated his name and think he should be freed for future users. Such greatness shouldn't be held back by a PBU.
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On July 25 2013 05:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +
Mysticalnubcake was just banned by KadaverBB.
That account was created on 2013-07-25 03:52:04 and had 2 posts.
Reason: PBU
Although he was a PBU, I appreicated his name and think he should be freed for future users. Such greatness shouldn't be held back by a PBU.
Agreed. Just imagine if Pokebunny's next SCV came with that as a username change as well! 
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On July 25 2013 04:49 KadaverBB wrote:I think it is time to take this to Website Feedback if you want to keep discussing this at length
As someone in 5th year of law school, I would love to see someone expanding on this topic in US law.
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On July 25 2013 05:05 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:49 KadaverBB wrote:I think it is time to take this to Website Feedback if you want to keep discussing this at length As someone in 5th year of law school, I would love to see someone expanding on this topic in US law.
As someone who isn't knowledgeable of legal stuff I am also interested in this and find it to be a very intriguing topic overall. Please do expand on this in Website Feedback at the least.
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On July 25 2013 05:11 3FFA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 05:05 Spekulatius wrote:On July 25 2013 04:49 KadaverBB wrote:I think it is time to take this to Website Feedback if you want to keep discussing this at length As someone in 5th year of law school, I would love to see someone expanding on this topic in US law. As someone who isn't knowledgeable of legal stuff I am also interested in this and find it to be a very intriguing topic overall. Please do expand on this in Website Feedback at the least.
Zis, this discussion has been very enteraining for a multitude of reasons.
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On July 25 2013 06:42 TimKim0713 wrote:
GOD DAMN IT
TERRAN SO FUKING IMBA STILL
PLESASE NERF THEM
LOL THEY ALL ARE LESS thn 50%
User was temp banned for this post.
Sorry Teoita but I'm pretty sure he was mocking the people who still claim Terran are OP even though the winrates suggest otherwise... So not really a balance whine of any description, quite the opposite.
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United States33492 Posts
On July 25 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:44 KwarK wrote:
I believe we're using arbitrarily differently. My final sentence clarifies my point.
"Bans happen because a moderator has decided that you should be banned."
That basically agrees with Plexa, that if a moderator feels he has reason to ban you then you get banned. Mods have the power to judge you. I think dAPhREAk, who is an attorney, is trying to politely tell you that standard would not hold up in court. When you start accepting money, you create a contract of some sort and there are things are and are not allowed in a contract. I am not a huge expert on what makes a contract invalid, but in general you can’t deny someone a service they paid for “because someone on our staff said so”. I know you folks have other reasons for banning people and he is saying you should stick to the one expressly stated in the terms of using the site, rather than a moderators decision that the person “doesn’t fit”. As someone who works for attorneys all day, if they say something is a bad idea, it is generally a good idea to listen to them on the subject. I don’t think it will ever be an issue for TL, since the amounts of money are so small.
hahahahahahahahahaha
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On July 25 2013 02:57 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2013 02:44 KwarK wrote:
I believe we're using arbitrarily differently. My final sentence clarifies my point.
"Bans happen because a moderator has decided that you should be banned."
That basically agrees with Plexa, that if a moderator feels he has reason to ban you then you get banned. Mods have the power to judge you. I think dAPhREAk, who is an attorney, is trying to politely tell you that standard would not hold up in court. When you start accepting money, you create a contract of some sort and there are things are and are not allowed in a contract. I am not a huge expert on what makes a contract invalid, but in general you can’t deny someone a service they paid for “because someone on our staff said so”. I know you folks have other reasons for banning people and he is saying you should stick to the one expressly stated in the terms of using the site, rather than a moderators decision that the person “doesn’t fit”. As someone who works for attorneys all day, if they say something is a bad idea, it is generally a good idea to listen to them on the subject. I don’t think it will ever be an issue for TL, since the amounts of money are so small. So in the end he's right if no reason in the rules can be used to ban somebody because he got banned for something not in the rules? Solution? Just state in the terms of use and in the tl+ conditions that behaviour deemed unacceptable by an admin can result in a ban even if no rule was directly broken, that should cover behaviour in- and outside of TL. Problem solved, time to post this and chuckle ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DyA4xlV.jpg) :D EDIT: I hate the fact that I keep on laughing about my own jokes, but this was even funnier than the first time it was posted, for me.
;_; mdj's TL+ was running out so just gave it to the lastest post he had at that time, didnt mean it as some mean thing to phreak infact i like him alot ^_^ u can check out his profile to see
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On July 25 2013 08:17 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:57 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2013 02:44 KwarK wrote:
I believe we're using arbitrarily differently. My final sentence clarifies my point.
"Bans happen because a moderator has decided that you should be banned."
That basically agrees with Plexa, that if a moderator feels he has reason to ban you then you get banned. Mods have the power to judge you. I think dAPhREAk, who is an attorney, is trying to politely tell you that standard would not hold up in court. When you start accepting money, you create a contract of some sort and there are things are and are not allowed in a contract. I am not a huge expert on what makes a contract invalid, but in general you can’t deny someone a service they paid for “because someone on our staff said so”. I know you folks have other reasons for banning people and he is saying you should stick to the one expressly stated in the terms of using the site, rather than a moderators decision that the person “doesn’t fit”. As someone who works for attorneys all day, if they say something is a bad idea, it is generally a good idea to listen to them on the subject. I don’t think it will ever be an issue for TL, since the amounts of money are so small. So in the end he's right if no reason in the rules can be used to ban somebody because he got banned for something not in the rules? Solution? Just state in the terms of use and in the tl+ conditions that behaviour deemed unacceptable by an admin can result in a ban even if no rule was directly broken, that should cover behaviour in- and outside of TL. Problem solved, time to post this and chuckle :D EDIT: I hate the fact that I keep on laughing about my own jokes, but this was even funnier than the first time it was posted, for me. ;_; mdj's TL+ was running out so just gave it to the lastest post he had at that time, didnt mean it as some mean thing to phreak infact i like him alot ^_^ u can check out his profile to see
I know, you wrote it immediately when it was posted the first time already
Relax buddy, shit was funny
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On July 25 2013 08:33 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 08:17 Shock710 wrote:On July 25 2013 02:57 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2013 02:44 KwarK wrote:
I believe we're using arbitrarily differently. My final sentence clarifies my point.
"Bans happen because a moderator has decided that you should be banned."
That basically agrees with Plexa, that if a moderator feels he has reason to ban you then you get banned. Mods have the power to judge you. I think dAPhREAk, who is an attorney, is trying to politely tell you that standard would not hold up in court. When you start accepting money, you create a contract of some sort and there are things are and are not allowed in a contract. I am not a huge expert on what makes a contract invalid, but in general you can’t deny someone a service they paid for “because someone on our staff said so”. I know you folks have other reasons for banning people and he is saying you should stick to the one expressly stated in the terms of using the site, rather than a moderators decision that the person “doesn’t fit”. As someone who works for attorneys all day, if they say something is a bad idea, it is generally a good idea to listen to them on the subject. I don’t think it will ever be an issue for TL, since the amounts of money are so small. So in the end he's right if no reason in the rules can be used to ban somebody because he got banned for something not in the rules? Solution? Just state in the terms of use and in the tl+ conditions that behaviour deemed unacceptable by an admin can result in a ban even if no rule was directly broken, that should cover behaviour in- and outside of TL. Problem solved, time to post this and chuckle :D EDIT: I hate the fact that I keep on laughing about my own jokes, but this was even funnier than the first time it was posted, for me. ;_; mdj's TL+ was running out so just gave it to the lastest post he had at that time, didnt mean it as some mean thing to phreak infact i like him alot ^_^ u can check out his profile to see I know, you wrote it immediately when it was posted the first time already Relax buddy, shit was funny
It was pretty funny, those I didn't get the entire context.
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EPT
