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This thread is for discussing recent bans. Don't discuss other topics here. Take it to website feedback if you disagree with a ban or want to raise an issue. Keep it civil.NOTE: For those of you who want to find the actual ABL thread where the bans are posted. Please look in here: https://tl.net/forum/closed-threads/ |
On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/
they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses.
On July 25 2013 02:28 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. His point is that they never agreed to give you any rights, with or without money, nor did they force you anywhere to pay. In fact they tell you up front that you can still be banned like regular users.
they did agree to give you rights. it is irrelevant whether your payment was voluntary or involuntary; your legal rights dont change. they can ban you for tl.net rules; they cant ban you arbitrarily. they have to justify the revocation of the license; arbitrariness is against the law normally.
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United States43643 Posts
On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses.
I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated:
So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others.
You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread.
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On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it.
it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject.
On July 25 2013 02:35 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated: Show nested quote +So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others. You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread.
i said you cant be banned arbitrarily. the normals rules still apply.
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United States43643 Posts
On July 25 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it. it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject.
None at all.
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On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it.
You are accepting money for features that are not available to free users. I am not sure what a judge would call TL+, but their relationship to TL is different that a menmber who does not have TL+, legally speaking. Everything changes once you start accepting peoples money, no matter what you call it.
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United States43643 Posts
On July 25 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it. it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject. Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:35 Plexa wrote:On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated: So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others. You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread. i said you cant be banned arbitrarily. the normals rules still apply.
All bans on tl are arbitrary and always have been. You do not need to be shown to be in breach of a specific rule to be banned, the rules are to help the users understand the conduct we wish from them and the community of tl, they are not an aid to moderation. Bans happen because a moderator has decided that you should be banned.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 25 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it. it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject. Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:35 Plexa wrote:On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated: So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others. You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread. i said you cant be banned arbitrarily. the normals rules still apply.
We don't ban users on TL "arbitrarily". We ban them for good reason. If you feel like this is not the case then, again, website feedback is the way to go.
On July 25 2013 02:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays.
I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it. it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject. On July 25 2013 02:35 Plexa wrote:On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated: So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others. You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread. i said you cant be banned arbitrarily. the normals rules still apply. All bans on tl are arbitrary and always have been. You do not need to be shown to be in breach of a specific rule to be banned, the rules are to help the users understand the conduct we wish from them and the community of tl, they are not an aid to moderation. Bans happen because a moderator has decided that you should be banned.
This is also true. It's not how I would look at it, but you can see things this way. Our bans are always motivated by some action(s) users have conducted, as such I don't think they are arbitrary in the sense that we're randomly banning users. But at the same time they are arbitrary because, as Kwark said, we don't have to illustrate that a user has broken any particular rule to ban.
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i am going to listen to plexa.
edit: well i was, until this gem came up.
On July 25 2013 02:41 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays.
I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it. it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject. On July 25 2013 02:35 Plexa wrote:On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated: So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others. You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread. i said you cant be banned arbitrarily. the normals rules still apply. We don't ban users on TL "arbitrarily". We ban them for good reason. If you feel like this is not the case then, again, website feedback is the way to go.
On July 25 2013 02:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:33 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:26 SilentchiLL wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays.
I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. How do people get banned in World of Warcraft? PS: http://www.teamliquid.net/tou/ they get banned for violating the terms of service. tl.net can do the same here. i never said they couldnt ban people. i said they cant ban people for arbitrary rules (at least legally). those terms you cited me are pre-tl+ by the way. different rules apply when you sell licenses. I don't believe we're in the business of selling licenses, no matter how much you keep repeating it. it is a license. not sure your legal training on the subject. On July 25 2013 02:35 Plexa wrote:On July 25 2013 02:29 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 02:22 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 25 2013 02:09 KwarK wrote:On July 25 2013 01:52 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 24 2013 23:37 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. I think in general people tend to forget that while the forum is public and open for registration, being a member is still a privilege and not a right. actually, its a right now for those carrying tl+. they commercialized it and the same arbitrary rules cant apply to paying members. On July 24 2013 20:17 marvellosity wrote:On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more. I agree with this, I'm surprised others don't. This is TL's house after all, they choose who enters and stays. the problem is with the enforcement. this has already been abused once, and then overturned by an admin. Not the case actually. Tl+ membership entitles you to read the tl+ forums, report other users, PM multiple people at once and a few other things. Nowhere in there is the right to post sold. A banned account can still read the forums and I believe still report people. Tl+ members have not bought the right to post with their membership and can be banned just as freely as anyone else. Furthermore there isn't a rule saying you can be banned for something outside of tl because there doesn't need to be one because you don't have to break a specific rule to have your posting rights revoked. The moderation team are entrusted with using their judgement as they see fit to keep this community the way they feel it should be. Rules are a useful way of communicating what that vision is but certainly do not bind the moderation team. This isn't a court and you don't have rights, we don't need to prove that you've broken the tl contract because there is no tl contract, you do not own tl nor have any rights to it. i hope you're not legal counsel to tl.net. you don't get to do whatever you want once you start offering paid memberships. the argument that you can revoke their posting privileges because its not part of tl+ is lame, and i would love to see someone argue that in a court of law. the tl+ benefits are in addition to what people already have. you cant say "i'll let you keep the 'filter' button but i am going to prevent you from posting or looking at our website other than what is specifically laid out in the tl+ post." some of us are customers now, and are entitled to additional rights beyond that which normal users are entitled. if tl.net wants to join the real world of commercialization, it should learn the rules. edit: i shouldnt say tl.net, because this is not tl.net speaking, its just you. I'm not a lawyer but my understanding is that we ban tl+ members just as freely as we ban anyone else because nothing we sold guarantees posting. Fortunately we do have lawyers on tl who aren't me. You could ask them if you want, website feedback for example. As part of the TL+ launch, we clearly stated: So if I buy this, I can repeatedly insult the unwashed masses of normal users without fear of being banned?
No, you jerk. TL+ users will largely be moderated the same way as normal users, and will be held to the same posting standards. The TL+ private forums however may have slightly less strict moderation when it comes to thread and post content. If you buy TL+ for yourself or gift it to others, you are just purchasing some added features and access while supporting TL. It is not a get-out-of-ban free card or a way to feel superior to others. You're probably more likely to be given a second chance/third chance/more lenient ban by being a TL+ member but this is not a hard and fast rule and does not mean we won't perm people if they are sufficiently detrimental to the community. If you wish to discuss the relationship between TL+ and being banned on TL then I suggest you post in website as opposed to the ABL thread. i said you cant be banned arbitrarily. the normals rules still apply. All bans on tl are arbitrary and always have been. You do not need to be shown to be in breach of a specific rule to be banned, the rules are to help the users understand the conduct we wish from them and the community of tl, they are not an aid to moderation. Bans happen because a moderator has decided that you should be banned.
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United States43643 Posts
I believe we're using arbitrarily differently. My final sentence clarifies my point.
"Bans happen because a moderator has decided that you should be banned."
That basically agrees with Plexa, that if a moderator feels he has reason to ban you then you get banned. Mods have the power to judge you.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Our ideas are compatible, just depends on your definition/application of arbitrary. Read my edit.
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On July 25 2013 02:44 KwarK wrote:
I believe we're using arbitrarily differently. My final sentence clarifies my point.
"Bans happen because a moderator has decided that you should be banned."
That basically agrees with Plexa, that if a moderator feels he has reason to ban you then you get banned. Mods have the power to judge you.
I think dAPhREAk, who is an attorney, is trying to politely tell you that standard would not hold up in court. When you start accepting money, you create a contract of some sort and there are things are and are not allowed in a contract. I am not a huge expert on what makes a contract invalid, but in general you can’t deny someone a service they paid for “because someone on our staff said so”. I know you folks have other reasons for banning people and he is saying you should stick to the one expressly stated in the terms of using the site, rather than a moderators decision that the person “doesn’t fit”.
As someone who works for attorneys all day, if they say something is a bad idea, it is generally a good idea to listen to them on the subject. I don’t think it will ever be an issue for TL, since the amounts of money are so small.
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On July 25 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 02:44 KwarK wrote:
I believe we're using arbitrarily differently. My final sentence clarifies my point.
"Bans happen because a moderator has decided that you should be banned."
That basically agrees with Plexa, that if a moderator feels he has reason to ban you then you get banned. Mods have the power to judge you. I think dAPhREAk, who is an attorney, is trying to politely tell you that standard would not hold up in court. When you start accepting money, you create a contract of some sort and there are things are and are not allowed in a contract. I am not a huge expert on what makes a contract invalid, but in general you can’t deny someone a service they paid for “because someone on our staff said so”. I know you folks have other reasons for banning people and he is saying you should stick to the one expressly stated in the terms of using the site, rather than a moderators decision that the person “doesn’t fit”. As someone who works for attorneys all day, if they say something is a bad idea, it is generally a good idea to listen to them on the subject. I don’t think it will ever be an issue for TL, since the amounts of money are so small.
So in the end he's right if no reason in the rules can be used to ban somebody because he got banned for something not in the rules?
Solution?
Just state in the terms of use and in the tl+ conditions that behaviour deemed unacceptable by an admin can result in a ban even if no rule was directly broken, that should cover behaviour in- and outside of TL.
Problem solved, time to post this and chuckle
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DyA4xlV.jpg)
:D
EDIT: I hate the fact that I keep on laughing about my own jokes, but this was even funnier than the first time it was posted, for me.
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I bet you could get banned for sueing teamliquid.
good.
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On July 25 2013 03:02 ComaDose wrote:
I bet you could get banned for sueing teamliquid.
good.
You probably would.
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So I come to TL and see 120+ posts in ABL and then I see this thread. 1+1=2 doesn't it?
Apparently not, I think there was only two bans in the whole thread.
I'm interested in what got this "i zig zag around you" guy nuked, as I see only this temp ban here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422475¤tpage=5#96
I guess the final reason was some PM with moderation, but there is also a PBUish feel in him, seeing how he's had the account for 3 weeks and posts in places where I would not dare to venture after such a short membership.
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On July 25 2013 03:53 Oukka wrote:So I come to TL and see 120+ posts in ABL and then I see this thread. 1+1=2 doesn't it? Apparently not, I think there was only two bans in the whole thread. I'm interested in what got this "i zig zag around you" guy nuked, as I see only this temp ban here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422475¤tpage=5#96I guess the final reason was some PM with moderation, but there is also a PBUish feel in him, seeing how he's had the account for 3 weeks and posts in places where I would not dare to venture after such a short membership.
Trolling would be my guess? He's pretty much trying with every post to start something.
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Germany25657 Posts
He sent me some rather funny (terribly stupid) PM's and also had a bunch of alternate accounts which are now banned as well.
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On July 25 2013 04:09 KadaverBB wrote:
He sent me some rather funny (terribly stupid) PM's and also had a bunch of alternate accounts which are now banned as well.
Oh the joys of TL trolls.
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On July 25 2013 03:53 Oukka wrote:So I come to TL and see 120+ posts in ABL and then I see this thread. 1+1=2 doesn't it? Apparently not, I think there was only two bans in the whole thread. I'm interested in what got this "i zig zag around you" guy nuked, as I see only this temp ban here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422475¤tpage=5#96I guess the final reason was some PM with moderation, but there is also a PBUish feel in him, seeing how he's had the account for 3 weeks and posts in places where I would not dare to venture after such a short membership.
Looks like you haven't read those 120+ posts. But it's ok, here's the most important part regarding zig zag:
On July 24 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:
If you show that you're not the kind of person we'd like to have here at tl then I see absolutely no reason why we'd keep you here just because you didn't do it on tl itself. We either want you here or you don't, there's no "don't want you but technically we can't do anything". A few years ago there was a guy recounting how he raped a girl on tl, the fact that the rape happened in real life didn't make him any less distasteful or make me want him on the website more.
Him on Twitter
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EPT
