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<font size=1>Graphics by DivinO.</font> Once upon a time, in a land of cream and honey, a pair of brothers bought a video game that birthed an obsession. The boys were named Nick and Sean and for their one-time purchase they were blessed with 13 years of entertainment, passion and purpose. Such a return on investment is unheard of in this day of throw-away apps, subscription services and microtransactions, but the video game they'd bought was Starcraft: Broodwar and it was not an ordinary gaming experience even in its day. It effected their lives so completely that it has shaped the course of their adult careers.
If the careers of the Plott brothers could be considered the mantlepiece for western eSports, it becomes essential to note that in the hearth below them burns the flames of a hundred-thousand obsessed fans fueling western eSports, lifting that mantlepiece to its place. Indeed, with the release of Starcraft 2, that flame has exploded into a mighty blaze, The mantlepiece is accomodating, rising and growing wider as though it were powered by the heat of the flame.
There are organizations that have noticed the flame and are looking for places along the mantlepiece to set up shop. And for now, There's plenty of room. MLG, IPL, NASL, Dreamhack and dozens of others have arrived, all vying for the opportunity to warm themselves by the fire. Unlike the Plott brothers, however, they don't appear to remember the return on investment Broodwar gave to its commited fans. They speak with what seems to be one voice: "If You Support eSports, Pay Us." This worries me because I'm old and nerdy enough to remember the bubble of another fan-based economy that had a very similar rallying cry: Comic Books.
If we take the way-back machine to 1964 we can witness the birth of a PR campaign begun by Marvel Comics and Stan Lee. It was called the Merry Marvel Marching Society (MMMS), and it was a fanclub for kids that liked reading Marvel Comics. The goal was clearly to help grassroots word-of-mouth advertising along, but it came with a membership kit for a modest price and kids back then joined clubs for all sorts of things, so it seemed harmless. Despite some success, the company was losing money on the project and Marvel's publisher, Martin Goodman, wanted to cancel the program. Stan Lee disagreed with the publisher's decision and took it upon himself to keep MMMS going by finding an investor for a new project called Marvelmania International. In 1969, Marvelmania absorbed MMMS and served the same role as the old club. It turned out that Goodman was right, however, and Marvelmania International stopped selling membership kits and magazines in 1971. "Marvel Maniacs" lived on as the term for die-hard Marvel fans, but Stan Lee and Marvel stopped investing money in the group.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB_v5w9NwUU <font size=1>MMMS' rallying song from the late 60s. Adorable, ain't it?</font> As kids are want to do, Marvel Maniacs grew and matured. They began to feed into the underground and independant publishers of the 70s and 80s. These publishers ignored the Comics Code (google Fredric Wertham "Seduction of the Innocent" for a history lesson on the CC) and therefore could not sell to supermarkets and other large carriers of comics. Fortunately, the fan base for comics was sufficiently fanatical that they found other ways to move these comics. Those that skillfully rode this wave of maturing readership enjoyed incredible success for a time.
Underground comics started out in head-shops for stoner-hippies and eventually blossomed into organizations like Fantagraphics Books. Independant publishers created the demand for Comic Novelty shops and direct distribution of the sort we see today. There were long-running successes, such as Harvey Pekar's American Splendor and Dave Sim's Cerebus. There were flash-in-the-pan successes, such as Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It was starting to seem like comics could be a career for anyone with enough time and dedication to attempt to self-publish. Certainly, the success stories were encouraging.
All along this time-period the spirit of Marvelmania lived on and its principles informed the fanbase at large, fueling projects that may not have otherwise withstood the realities of capitalism. In the early 90s, with then-recent national news of comics auctions fresh in the public's mind (a near mint Amazing Fantasy #15 sold for some ungawdly sum), comics publishing giants such as Marvel, DC and Image decided to finally cash in on the mania. There was an explosion of product as all three companies "killed" main characters (anyone remember the death of Superman?), issued variant covers, issued hologram covers, and started new series after new series of utterly forgettable trash so that speculators and fans alike would buy multiple copies of "#1". For a short time, sales were fantastic.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5L2MN.jpg) <font size=1>Spiderman #1, the best-selling comic in history at the time of its publication. Marvel had the balls to call it a "collector's item" on each of its 3 variant covers. And folks bought them in such numbers that comics stores had to put an upper limit on the number of copies each customer could purchase. Are there analogues to this creeping into eSports? Think multiple streams and HD with commercial breaks.</font> By the mid-90s, the comics industry had begun to faulter. Speculators realized that buying multiple issues of trash was fucking dumb and suddenly the jig was up. True comics fans and kids were still around, but their dedication was simply not enough anymore, particularly for the independent publishers who did less to court the under-14 market. Strangely, the undercurrent of the Marvelmania mindset only grew stronger. It eventually became so prevalent that it earned a new nickname: Team Comics.
Coined by then-Comics Journal Editor, Tom Spurgeon, he described the phenomenon thus:
Team Comics was "an implied social contract whereby it is asserted that everyone from comics professionals to readers is obligated to help raise the profile and sales levels of the comic-book industry. Team Comics members in good standing might buy an extra copy of a comic they believe in, shop only at their local comic-book store rather than seek out the best bargain, give comics for presents, loan them to friends and provide a good personal example through attention to personal hygiene and use of pro-comics rhetoric. Negative reviews or even pointed commentary aimed at a specific portion of the comics industry are a total no-no, and the person who insists on them must selfishly wish to keep the industry small and inconsequential. Team Comics believes that the American comic-book industry can be willed out of any sales decline no matter how extended, and perhaps even return to some hazily asserted utopia of mass-medium status it enjoyed in the 1940s."
Ultimately, Team Comics managed two things: first it softened the eventual collapse of the comics bubble; second, it bled the fanbase's bank accounts so a few moderately popular comics could last a few more months. Today, with some rare exceptions, the only publishing companies to survive are the ones that would've existed without the bubble. Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse, etc. Independent publishers with no reputation have moved on to digital publication and can be found on the internet, but you're unlikely to find them in comics shops any longer. Comics is a pale shadow of what they were in the 90s.
So what's this have to do with eSports? you may be asking. Well, I think eSports is growing, that it hasn't yet reached its peak, but I see signs of a bubble forming. Somehow we, as a community, are already showing signs of Team eSports, and that's trouble. Recently Sundance tweated: "I[f] we sell 100,000 memberships before the national championship I will raise the prize pool. A lot. Next season too." And iNcontroL responded with the mocking quip, "Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!" The community (and especially Reddit) immediately jumped down iNcontroL's throat for having the audacity to question Sundance's tweat.
iNcontroL is a hypocrit for questioning Sundance's motives, he's been as bad as anyone about profiting off the fans of eSports, I do not want to address that. What I want to say is that iNcontroL's point isn't wrong. Sundance is effectively bribing the community with a reward that does not benefit them. A larger prize pool is useless to a fan except in the most nebulous sense. It may generate interest from more progamers, but that's all it does. In my opinion, the only way you can support Sundance's bribe is if you're already a member of Team eSports. And if that's true, I worry.
Comics was already becoming an old medium when their bubble popped and eSports is new in the world of entertainment, so you may not agree that our community can learn from the mistakes of Team Comics. But I think there are some lessons that can be drawn:
First: Don't spend money on products you don't enjoy. It won't grow eSports, it'll bubble it. Start-ups will crumble, larger organizations will get burned and investors, sponsors and advertisers will mistrust the opportunities in eSports even more. I've heard DJWheat brag that he'd bought subscriptions to tournaments he didn't have time to watch. He forgave his careless consumerism with some offhand comment about supporting eSports. For wheat it's not terribly important-- DJWheat is in eSports for the long haul, he'll likely always have wasteful purchasing habits, and so on-- but if that mindset is adopted by a large minority (or gawd forbid, the majority) of casual fans... casual fans that'll move on when the next big game hits. Well, there goes all our sustainability.
Second: If eSports organizations have to rely on advertising and sponsors to pay their salaries and fund their prize pools, so be it. That is a sustainable business model that is flexible to the size of the audience. Abusing Team eSports' generosity and community spirit to squeeze out a few extra dollars may be a savvy business move for a strip miner, but if you expect to rely on the land for more than a few years, you're going to want to nurture the soil. A personal plea to the new eSports organizations: be farmers; not strip miners. Day[9] has the right idea on this one.
Finally: We're not all in this together, sorry. If every SC2 league event on the planet is successful, that doesn't mean you will be, too. There are enough competing leagues out there that you can, and should, pick and choose between them. The cream will rise to the top, and you'll be rewarded for your discrimination. Teamliquid (and the SC2 community more generally) are fantastic, passionate and incredibly supportive fanbases, but sometimes to a fault. If you support a shitty professional league or tournament because you're "supporting eSports," please remind yourself that they're not going to share their profits with you. Not every eSports company has to survive to keep you entertained.
There's a reason that Nick and Sean Plott were able to follow Broodwar eSports, eventually translating that passion into careers, and it wasn't because they were spoiled rich kids that could afford to purchase faux-ancillary events and products attached to Broodwar. They were able to do it because it was as close to free to audience and participants as the event organizers could make them. When local events were held, they had a cover charge for attendance and most of the rest of the costs were covered by advertising. When there were Korean restreams, watching those streams was free. Occasionally, restreamers would suggest users make donations, but that's only because they were losing money on the situation and didn't have the viewership numbers to generate interest from advertisers. It had nothing to do with greed. Today we have the infrastructure in place (through Justin.tv, Livestream, Own3d.tv and other options) to attract advertising dollars no matter how small the production. It's an exciting time to grow eSports, but now we also have greed creeping in, with eSports organizers ready to exploit the passions of the fanbase for their own financial gains. In terms of content, they're not offering any more than what we've always had, they're putting a shiny gloss on the production and charging for the privilege to see it in high quality. What's the return on investment in that?
This thread should be about ways eSports organizations can provide value to their customers to justify the prices they're demanding. Alternatively, discuss advertising and sponsorship options that're available to these organizations. Paying someone to "support eSports" is a poor motivation to part with your money, and you should demand more than some empty pride in the scene's profit margins.
+ Show Spoiler +Sorry for being so long winded, but the whole "support us because ESPORTS!!" has been bugging me for almost a year now, and it really smacked me in the face when I started reading about the sundance/incontrol controversy the other day. Seeing people call sundance a genius businessman and incontrol a fat moron really grated on my last nerve about this topic. Neither are heroes with regards to how they've tried to abuse the goodwill of the community for an extra buck. And incontrol, like day9, at least comes from our community. Buy NASL or MLG, etc HD passes if you like their tourney and the passes seem like a smart buy to you. Don't do it cuz someone's bribing you with ESPORTS.
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Dammit stop ruining ESPORTS!!!!!!!!!
+ Show Spoiler +Well done the retort I always expect to come afterwords From team liquid being of extreme high quality.
Thank you for that. Your wholly correct and I loved the example and I found the whole post to be very nice and would read over and over again.
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Brief thoughts on who I think are doing a good job as esports organizations and who are abusing the fans in the way I address in the OP:
GSL (artosis&tasteless): Very solid and professional. Their subscription service supports the English stream, but they've never claimed (that I can remember) that buying subscriptions helps esports.
Day[9]: Day[9]'s Daily is really the epitome of class to me, as far as how he treats his fans. He's recently started supporting it with advertisements and I'm really surprised it took him that long to do it. Just goes to show how much he cares about fans. He also has a subscription, but it is for bonus product (playing games with Day9, etc), and is not for the daily itself. He has a very laid back way of promoting esports, as well. Suggesting that you simply avoid being ashamed of your passion and talk about it with your friends without being insulting. Entirely positive approach.
MLG: They are getting much better in production quality and value. $30 for a year long HD pass is likely worth it for many fans. I have a big problem, however, with the fact that they associate their brand with eSports, and I get a very strong impression that the message they're sending to the community is "If you don't make us millionaires, you've failed us as fans" Bugs the fuck outta me
NASL: Basically, they're MLG lite, in every way. Their quality is less, they sell season HD passes that support esports somehow, and they blackmail their fans, suggesting that if they don't sell enough subscriptions, they'll take their shit and go elsewhere. The implication is that if we don't buy enough from them, we're bad fans, which is bullshit.
TSL: Best evar, naturally. If only we had the organization to do them more often, lol.
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I like the post and wholeheartedly agree. Can't wait for this to be spotlighted for valuable, intelligent information shown in a clear reasonable way.
Also, kinda wish this were a blog, because I always like taking the posts that are particularly good and giving them a 5-star rating, it's a shame we can't do that with things in the strategy forums as well.
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United States4796 Posts
Thanks Tadzio. I don't see you post often but it's really quality when you do.
As for your point I agree. I guess. Not that I know enough to actually contribute.
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What a good read. Tbh I got sick of it around the time of the second GSL Open. It wasn't anything GSL was doing, just the fans. Completely agree with your analysis of GSL though, they're very professional and I've subscribed three times total. Same goes for Day9, the dude is a class act.
As for NASL/MLG... idk I haven't bought a pass yet, and I don't plan on it atm.
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Excellent post. Absolutely spot on. I remember djwheat talking with some team leaders about finances on... weapon of choice i think? And the final consensus was that esports was headed toward a bubble and a decline, but FXOboss was confident FXO would survive because they practiced a more sustainable business model that did not depend on fan and sponsor money.
It's an approach more folks need to take.
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United States4796 Posts
I think this should be highlighted by the way. This really needs more readership. I'll be glad to add graphics if you want, Tadzio (a la Final Edit).
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Thanks for the compliment. I should break up the wall of text with some images, I agree. If you have some gfx in mind, I'm sure I could use them. PM me concerning it if you like. I'm not gonna unilaterally put this on the frontpage, though. It's basically a personal rant addressing the community and I don't think it's appropriate for me to FE it on my own (plus I don't think I tied the plott brother opening into my conclusion in a satisfactory manner, so this isn't really written to FE standards).
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Fascinating history lesson on the comic industry, and sums up a sentiment that's been stewing in the back of my mind for sometime now with regards to progaming. To some degree it is acceptable, but ultimately,things have to stand on their own and can't live off charity/pity. I do think we are seeing less of it these days (or maybe I'm not as attentive), having more options has raised the bar as a side effect. Still a warning well worth heeding.
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Interesting read. Now I have to go think
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"Negative reviews or even pointed commentary aimed at a specific portion of the comics industry are a total no-no, and the person who insists on them must selfishly wish to keep the industry small and inconsequential. "
This seems like a key weakness in the Team Comics approach that has so far, and can continue to be avoided in the case of esports. This is akin to an aspiring SC2 player deciding not to analyze his losses. The failures are key learning opportunities. While it may not be the most comfortable situation for the organizations under fire, I think it helps the industry improve and grow in the long run. Flame on.
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Great Op, very much agreed with it in it's entirety.
In your second post you mention your opinion of NASL, however, and I feel that your dislike of InControl is spilling over. NASL is very much learning and still testing the waters and never have they said that they will "take their shit elsewhere". That IS what the popular community stance/fear is though (the same with the "bad fans" statement), and I can admit that I personally have been guilty of the whole "support NASL no matter what, it's good for esports" bit. They were the first to attempt a real seasonal teournament in North America, and what you are saying is the crowd mentality speaking.
After the first season concluded, however, I will certainly be buying a second subscription for the simple mass of valuable content they put out during the season. Casting/Production has showed no signs of slowing it's improvements (at this point = great, not excellent, but has steadily been getting better for the last 2 months) and the games are obviously top-notch.
Great OP again, and completely agreed with selective buying. However, if you DO like a certain tournament, please DO buy the subscription. It's like torrenting, freeload the torrent and only you benefit. Seed the torrent and thousands can benefit.
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I think the reason the NASL has given off that impression is that they announced they're doing 3 seasons and then re-evaluating whether it's something they can keep doing. It's pragmatic, but the danger of telling your customers that is it puts pressure on them to buy subscriptions. It's passive-aggressive in the way its coercive. That may or may not have been the purpose behind releasing their future plans, but it had that effect, imo. Hence my evaluation.
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Wonderful, well thought out post. I personally don't believe in the "buy our season pass for ESPORTS" because
a)I'm a casual enough viewer that a medium quality stream is sufficient for my viewing pleasure and b)they're already getting revenue from the ads I have to watch between every match.
Mad respect for Day[9], by the way, for too many reasons to list.
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Totally agree! A great read, thank you for your insightful commentary.
I've sorta felt this way in the back of my mind for a while, but you put it most eloquently.
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Great read and an actual reality check. Should of been a TLFE with more refinement and even bigger general outlines.
I agree though, we see this sort of "taking advantage" of this community of all sites or forums from lower levels of users. Starting from scratch Youtube Casters, Music Video editors, potential clans, etc. "looking for feedback, followers, viewers, sponsors, clan mates, donations". Everyone is trying to get what they can from the community without putting anything back.
However, the same stunts are pulled in the higher-leagues of business and stature but no one really says or sees anything. They somehow think that those in the position of power either can drive the idea of E-Sports down or up, as they see fit, when in reality, their job is based around the whole concept and input of the very community. To "withhold" a prize-pool, features or even the basic expectations of the crowd would cause more damage than a way of urging us to spend more money on them. Their "putting back" is the very result or thing they promised in the first spot anyways, additionally; its not like they're doing us a favor, just giving the necessities to satisfy the masses.
I always said: Leave ESPORTS alone. It's a big fucking boy, it can stand on its own two legs and to be honest, even without all these leagues and fancy footwork by companies or corporations, it does fine. I might be speaking a bit out of knowledge here, but didn't EVO turn out just fine years before? (I try to avoid the word ESPORTS and just use competitive gaming, the whole notion is this fantastical dream to achieve something that was always met with skepticism if actually mentioned or publicly said).
The idea of competition should be homegrown and any backward end of a prize at the end of the whole affair is a good initiative to draw in interest, participants (and thus so will the viewers and fans follow), but it shouldn't be a deciding factor as to why you go or play.
Right now, I'm thinking the whole scene is saturated with everyone trying to get a slice and home things slim down as the new expansions come out. I doubt it, but ah well...
Might of rambled on a bit, and you've angered me more with your great parallel comparison, but it needed to be said. Great piece~
The idea of ESPORTS is a label, a way to say: "we got something going, look how much it can prosper", but then that very idea comes with "We just have to rub the right backs and get the right sponsors" when there are alternatives to this and instead of dunking our money into companies to do all the work for us, why don't we just do it ourselves? We have the numbers, the willingness and motivation and we have the passion, yet... we fall in line, enter our paypal information or credit card info and let the professionals handle the rest.
edit: I feel the sense of entitlement is one scary mindset and position right now.
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South Africa4316 Posts
This is a great post Tadzio, but I'm not sure I agree with it entirely. I agree wholeheartedly that "buy now to support eSports" creates a bubble, but I'm not sure if I agree with you that this is necessarily a bad thing. A bubble causes a lot of unwarranted cash to enter the market, with most of that cash leaving very quickly once the bubble bursts. This is a particularly bad thing when the cash that enters the industry is used on ineffecient ventures or to line the executives' pockets. However, I don't think eSports is there yet. Any cash that currently enters the industry goes towards improving the foundations, improvements which shouldn't disappear once the bubble crashes.
As it is, teams are getting better sponsors, organizers are learning how to host tournaments and streams properly, and eSports is starting to enter mainstream gamer perception (with articles on almost all major gaming sites) meaning a larger fan base. Improvements are also being made to online infrastructure with services like UStream and Justintv (and also GomTV) improving their broadcast services to cater to the gaming community. One of the major problems with the first two TSL's was streaming, something which has become much easier these days. Many of these improvements would not have occurred without the bubble, and won't leave even when the spurious money disappears. Even more importantly, if these things improve/grow quickly enough (especially the userbase) then eSports might actually catch up to the bubble and the wasteful investments of the original fans might get replaced by genuine investments from new fans.
I quickly looked at some stats (found here) and in many countries, more than half the population with internet access actively play games. If you look at a country like Germany, 80% of the population has internet access, and of those 80%, 66% play games actively (between the ages of 10-65). Doing some quick maths, that will mean roughly 40 million gamers, and that's just from one country. All these people should have at least a passing interest in games. The market for professional gaming is huge, if it can survive long enough at a high enough profile to reach the public attention. As such, any bubble there might currently be could be worth it and sustainable if it lasts long enough.
Still, yours is an excellent post. With everything I've said, I also hate the whole "you better support eSports," and it really grated the shit out of me when everyone was attacking Incontrol for making a very valid post.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Amazing post, fully support your views there champ. Good read and even better viewpoints!
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Great post, agree with pretty much everything said; although being a comic nerd, you make me sad
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I feel like Sundance requesting more subscriptions is actually legitimate considering the excitement that has surrounded every MLG since Dallas. People are willing to drive hundreds of miles not just 'for eSports' but to see their favorite SC players, casters, and personalities. The production values of IPL and MLG have been extremely high, so I don't see this as an appeal to "Team eSports" but more of a reminder: "Hey, you like us? We're the best right? Then help us make it even better!"
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Daigomi: Do you think helping to grow the bubble is of sufficient importance (to infrastructure, distribution and growth) that fans should purchase superfluous products and services from eSports organizations? It doesn't sound like that's what you're advocating, but that's what my OP was arguing against and you said you disagreed...
On July 31 2011 22:52 SirKibbleX wrote: "Hey, you like us? We're the best right? Then help us make it even better!"
Even if a larger prize pool would make for a better experience, why is it the community's responsibility to make MLG better? That's Team eSports thinking.... :D
The old cliche is "you get what you pay for," but I think "you get paid for what you're offering" is at least as valid considering the number of competitors MLG has. Imo, MLG should be looking for ways to beat their competition, not milking their existing fanbase with sweet, yet bizarrely empty promises. "Give us 100,000 annual subscribers and MLG will double the quality of the HQ streams." Or "..will run bonus footage of the after-party on the HQ streams." Or just about anything that would whet a customer's appetite for the HQ stream. Why offer something that doesn't benefit the fans but makes you rich? Does the NFL tell their fans that if they fill up the stadium the owners will give pay raises to their players? No, because it's a stupid thing to offer paying customers.
People watch these streams because they want to be entertained. Entice them with better entertainment. If you wanna go with a subscription model over an advertisement model, offer exclusive content (interviews scheduled during the free-stream's advertising breaks, for instance, or a third stream that broadcasts stuff hardcore fans would be into, like player preparations or tips from the pros or something). There's so many options available that aren't increasing the prize pool, it's a little daunting to consider them......
I feel like I'm ranting again, so I'll stop there. lol
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Great article, thanks for sharing.
I believe I was part of "Team e-Sports" for a while, but hanging out with my fellow "Team e-Sports" members snapped me out of it. ^^ The idea that I was responsible for the welfare of e-Sports and should show my support through buying HQ passes and merchandise of any and all events just didn't fly straight with me. Shouldn't a provider of e-Sports content be vigorously competing with other providers for my favor, and through quality get me to spend my money. Not just plainly ask for it while "the e-Sports horde" is threatening me with the downfall of e-Sports if I don't.
I came to the realization, a couple months ago, that my spending on e-Sports wasn't providing me with the sensation of actually supporting competitive gaming. That is when I decided to look for a way I could and started writing thank you e-mails to all the companies that supported e-Sports through sponsorship, cheering on all the contributors on places like TL and after that I applied to join Team Grubby as a volunteer. Now I have the feeling that I'm actually doing something for e-Sports and I'm still buying HQ passes, but I'm only spending it on organizations that provide me with good content. For me, this is the way I want to support e-Sports and it's much easier on the wallet too. 
On July 31 2011 23:42 Tadzio wrote:offer exclusive content (interviews scheduled during the free-stream's advertising breaks, for instance, or a third stream that broadcasts stuff hardcore fans would be into, like player preparations or tips from the pros or something).
I would love something like that..
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This sounds like a really good analysis to me. I totally agree that if the theme of "pay money now to support ESPORTS which you wouldn't otherwise pay" - the "ESPORTS charity" idea - creates an unsustainable bubble. People will eventually stop buying for that reason, and if the ESPORTS businesses that have been built up are depending on those people, the whole thing could collapse. The problem is, how else do we build up ESPORTS infrastructure, sustainably? I'm not convinced we've heard a good answer to that one.
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This is a genius post. I think it deserves to be read.
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On August 01 2011 02:33 strongandbig wrote: This sounds like a really good analysis to me. I totally agree that if the theme of "pay money now to support ESPORTS which you wouldn't otherwise pay" - the "ESPORTS charity" idea - creates an unsustainable bubble. People will eventually stop buying for that reason, and if the ESPORTS businesses that have been built up are depending on those people, the whole thing could collapse. The problem is, how else do we build up ESPORTS infrastructure, sustainably? I'm not convinced we've heard a good answer to that one.
I think we should look at organizations that have build up their event and brand without Team e-Sport. Any Suggestions?
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Very interesting and eye opening. This should be required reading for every Starcraft fan.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On July 31 2011 23:42 Tadzio wrote: Daigomi: Do you think helping to grow the bubble is of sufficient importance (to infrastructure, distribution and growth) that fans should purchase superfluous products and services from eSports organizations? It doesn't sound like that's what you're advocating, but that's what my OP was arguing against and you said you disagreed... I think I share your dislike of companies extorting money from fans, but unlike you I don't think the end result is necessarily bad. If fans want to purchase superfluous products, that's fine with me as I do believe it could help eSports. However, I dislike organizers making disingenuous promises or placing pressure on fans to make unnecessary promises to support eSports. I honestly feel that companies should focus more on getting advertising money than money from the fans, and this is still an area where eSports needs to develop.
On August 01 2011 03:26 Rustug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 02:33 strongandbig wrote: This sounds like a really good analysis to me. I totally agree that if the theme of "pay money now to support ESPORTS which you wouldn't otherwise pay" - the "ESPORTS charity" idea - creates an unsustainable bubble. People will eventually stop buying for that reason, and if the ESPORTS businesses that have been built up are depending on those people, the whole thing could collapse. The problem is, how else do we build up ESPORTS infrastructure, sustainably? I'm not convinced we've heard a good answer to that one. I think we should look at organizations that have build up their event and brand without Team e-Sport. Any Suggestions? I can say that all the TSLs have been organized purely through sponsorships, but we have an unfair advantage because we have a big community of helpful volunteers to rely on. This is also why we can't have as many TSLs as MLGs, because the volunteers can only give up so much of their own time. As such, I don't realy know if this model is sustainable on a larger scale.
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I agree that putting all our ESPORTS eggs into MLG/NASL's baskets definitely doesn't bode well for the community, but this is where the ficklness of the community comes in. Even if MLG tries to brand itself with the concept of ESPORTS, I don't really see that impression being left on the community. As of now, whatever organization does the best work gets support. Pretty good thing we have going, and thanks for the awesome writeup.
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I don't want any of my eggs in NASL's basket until I can hear noise coming from both of my speakers.
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Lovely post, some great points, there is definitely a knife edge to balance on when it comes to things like companies using eSports to sell to fans, which can be extorting or in an ideal world could just be something like ads around some other sports, i.e. the gear pros actually use getting sold because fans want to use good equipment.
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Updated the OP with, imo, a more satisfactory conclusion. + Show Spoiler [the conclusion] +There's a reason that Nick and Sean Plott were able to follow Broodwar eSports, eventually translating that passion into careers, and it wasn't because they were spoiled rich kids that could afford to purchase faux-ancillary events and products attached to Broodwar. They were able to do it because it was as close to free to audience and participants as the event organizers could make them. When local events were held, they had a cover charge for attendance and most of the rest of the costs were covered by advertising. When there were Korean restreams, watching those streams was free. Occasionally, restreamers would suggest users make donations, but that's only because they were losing money on the situation and didn't have the viewership numbers to generate interest from advertisers. It had nothing to do with greed. Today we have the infrastructure in place (through Justin.tv, Livestream, Own3d.tv and other options) to attract advertising dollars no matter how small the production. It's an exciting time to grow eSports, but now we also have greed creeping in, with eSports organizers ready to exploit the passions of the fanbase for their own financial gains. They're not offering any more than what we've always had, in terms of content, they're just putting a shiny gloss on the production and charging for the privilege to see it in high quality. What's the return on investment in that?
This thread should be about ways eSports organizations can provide value to their customers to justify the prices they're demanding. Alternatively, discuss advertising and sponsorship options that're available to these organizations. Paying someone to "support eSports" is a poor motivation to part with your money, and you should demand more than some empty pride in the scene's profit margins. Dunno if anyone actually wants to discuss this now that the OP is a week old, but I felt a need to change the OP so that it was better designed to generate discussion. Tbh, I was expecting people to disagree with the OP immediately and thought that would generate discussion, but with the exception of Daigomi, that never happened. shameless bump incoming.
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Really well written and thought out post.
When you mention the "bubble" in comics or esports are you talking about a sort of anti-capitalist form of false sustainability coming from only within the community? I don't know if that phrase makes any sense but I'm talking about a community that only exists and is funded as well as it is because people support it just to support it. I just want to ask for clarity with that.
I definitely agree that Day 9 is the man in how he promotes esports. He has passion that cannot be faked in what he does and his services to his fans (dailies, signing autographs for hours, being a generally positive, inspiring, and awesome dude, ect.) is the ideal way to help esports.
I'm not convinced, however, that NASL is black mailing the fans. I think you're saying this because they admitted if they didn't get the support for season 3 they couldn't afford it. They are probably just being honest. They streamed for free and for that alone I enjoyed watching a bunch of games without paying a cent. I can't get mad about that and I honestly appreciate their effort and giving me free entertainment.
The stupid shit people say on TL trying to be funny about people "ruining esports" gets on my nerves. Although it's a joke it still shows that nobody wants to be labeled as a person who is against the growth of esports. Maybe I am anti-esports because I have never once paid for any starcraft related content so far. I bought starcraft 2 and that's it. No coaching lessons, GSL/MLG/NASL/whatever else passes, and I never attended a live event. The only things I did donate to were to the Day 9 fund someone else suggested and to a charity streaming event (I think TLO's). I don't think it's right to feel pressured to spend money on something that you wouldn't pay for anyway, except for a charity event. I feel no shame in "not supporting esports" and I don't believe anyone else should either.
I like the idea of being a farmer rather than a strip miner. Rustug admitted to going from being on Team Esports to doing what he can that does not involve dumping money into the scene. I think this is a great way to go. Volunteering in all types of ways and sending out thank you emails is awesome. Props to you for that.
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On August 07 2011 13:11 AirbladeOrange wrote: When you mention the "bubble" in comics or esports are you talking about a sort of anti-capitalist form of false sustainability coming from only within the community? I don't know if that phrase makes any sense but I'm talking about a community that only exists and is funded as well as it is because people support it just to support it.
In comics the bubble was supported by the false stability provided by hard-core fans. It laid the ground work. Then speculators (folk that bought comics in the hope that their value would increase) came into the scene and the bubble exploded in a major way, collapsing about half a decade later. People that were part of "team comics" attempted, for a time, to take up the slack when speculators abandoned comics, but they only managed to soften the failure. In eSports, we've had steady growth, and the advertisers that're supporting shit now, in my view, represent the speculators. If eSports growth is naturally strong enough, they'll be rewarded. If it isn't, "team eSports" (which is being developed now) will soften the burst... but they won't be able to stop it. At a cost to themselves.
The worry I have is that developing on a business model that depends on the generosity of the fans tips the scales towards the eventual burst of the bubble. If you pay extra for HQ streams... instead of additional content, you encourage prices to go up without any additional value. This makes it more difficult for potential fans to get into the scene, imo, and damages any future attempt to fall back on advertiser rates.
Hope that answered your question.
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Very surprised that this missed my radar last time around. I thoroughly enjoyed the history lesson and how frightening that history may be repeating itself.
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Mani's blog post on spending wisely pointed me here. I think too often people ignore lessons from the past, whether it be finance, politics, or sports. Too many people are being too fanatical and evangelical in their support of ESPORTS, turning this forum into more of a pissing contest than a place to share, enjoy and nurture ESPORTS.
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On December 19 2011 13:49 Primadog wrote: Very surprised that this missed my radar last time around. I thoroughly enjoyed the history lesson and how frightening that history may be repeating itself.
This was written during or around a MLG fiasco (involving incontrol) and it's in a very quiet sub-forum :B
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Whoah! can't believe this got buried so quickly... it's amazing If you don't read this you ruin ESPORTS!
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On December 19 2011 15:05 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 13:49 Primadog wrote: Very surprised that this missed my radar last time around. I thoroughly enjoyed the history lesson and how frightening that history may be repeating itself. This was written during or around a MLG fiasco (involving incontrol) and it's in a very quiet sub-forum :B
And also the title of the thread suggests some sort of event with a SC2 team called Comic. Which I wouldn't read because I have never heard of such a team. Of course article content is very different and exceptionally interesting.
On December 19 2011 15:39 IamNatural wrote: bump Redundant much...
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Amazing post tadzio!
I love your perspecticve on this
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I opened this thread because I thought it had to do with a SC2 team named "Comic", great read! Though I'm sure if the title were a little different lots more people would read it >.<
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Wonderful article written very thoughtfully. The GSL season ticket options have been nagging at me since I watched the GSL Blizzcup Finals and although I was incredibly inspired by the show MMA and DRG put on, I still could not get myself to drop that amount of cash for the content Gom produces. $240 for what still is a secondary english stream is just not the value I can justify as a starving college student. If this was moved to SC2 General I'm sure more people could weigh in on this as it took months and a closely related thread (thanks Mani and Torte) to find this quality opinion piece.
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Wow. Not sure how I missed this post but this is a GREAT post.
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Excellent post, and something I don't think many people realize. We, as a community, need to start speaking with where we spend our money and where we click to watch players, tournaments and other shows.
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Thats really, really good . The whole "hurting E-SPORTS" thing annoys me so much.
I watched SC/BW before SC2 came out... There where games nearly everyday... They were not allways commentated in english but for all intents and purposes I happily watched my SC/BW thanks to awesome streamers which did this for absolutely FREE.
Now SC2 exploded and E-Sports is bigger than ever. Well, what actually happened to my viewing experience as a general SC/BW and SC2 watcher/fan (I'm seriously not biased towards either game)? There are way more english commentators, which is a huge improvement, and there are BIG weekend tournaments (Dreamhack/MLG/IEM) which SC/BW lacked, these are awesome. Aside from that everyting SC2 offers is worse than what SC/BW allready offered but suddenly most of them (praise you dreamhack) want my money to watch them in good quality AND everyone seems to want me to spend money on them to "support E-SPORTS" (and not be a horrible person)... If that’s what it's all about then well "fuck E-SPORTS".
Why does everyone thinks this is perfectly normal or good? Somewhere something has gone wrong.
I never did anything for SC/BW or anything on this site, i was and I am very gratefull that this site exists. There were/are tons of people like me but now suddenly, that SC2 got big, this is not enough anymore and i am suddenly hurting E-Sports by not actively sucking some organisations cock? I and many others are into E-Sports before some of the younger/newer guys here were allowed to stay up past 8 p.m. . I got accoutns on some "e-sports" forums which date back to 2000... And that was when the site was created, not when i started to care be into it .
I'll gladly pay for E-Sports.. As soon as it's worth it. Right now? It is for the most part not any better, if not worse, than what i got from SC/BW for free (thanks again to the restream heroes and youtube uploaders...).
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Excellent post first off, the lower quality tournaments will hopefully dissipate, there's only one NFL right? And that only lasts half the year, approx.
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Missed this the first time, but a great read for sure.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
This is extremely well put, I can't believe this didn't generate 200 pages of discussion.
It's funny, for the NASL finals, I was toying with the idea of writing an article titled 'Why I Hope NASL Fails", but I ultimately didn't finish it or post it, mostly due to time constraints. But the point of my article was similar; I thought (hope was probably not the right word) that if the third NASL season was it's last that it would be a good thing for the scene. That's because the NASL is a product that (so far) should fail in a free market. It has been repeatedly outclassed by it's peer tournaments in terms of production quality and fan/customer service. It is the ugly ducking of major Sc2 tournaments. The NASL has gotten better, even much better. But it hasn't gotten good enough for many fans, and while I personally don't care too much about something like quality of a stream, I do care that other people care about it.
As someone who does work for the scene directly and who profits from it; it's in my interest that projects I work on appeal to as many people as possible. For example, I'm not a good enough player, nor do I have the free time to watch replay packs. I usually only find games I thought were truly amazing, or when I'm interested in a certain player. But I take a ton of pride from the This Week In Replays feature we have on TLPro, and it's extremely important to me that we have passionate, knowledgeable, and smart people working on the replay packs we release. We're putting out a product, and even if it's not a product I use, it's vital that I address the concerns and suggestions of people who do use it.
So back to the NASL (and there are other tournaments with issues, but NASL has indisputably had the most consistent ones) that all goes to mean that as ESPORTS fans, we should be concerned with the quality and sustainability of the project, just as much as we are with simply the fact that it provides entertainment. On SotG, when iNcontroL sarcastically 'put down' the NASL for doing good work for ESPORTS, I could only shake my head. I think he missed the point. Leagues that fail are as important for our scene as leagues that succeed. We need both. So it's nothing against the NASL. They've done some really cool things, like bringing in new and interesting casters, and apparently they treated the players and fans extremely well at their live event. I actually 'hope' they succeed. But I hope they succeed in the right way, and not because fans put them on life support.
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Thanks for bumping this post. Missed it the first time and it was an eye opening good read!
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On December 19 2011 17:05 BFCrimson wrote: Wonderful article written very thoughtfully. The GSL season ticket options have been nagging at me since I watched the GSL Blizzcup Finals and although I was incredibly inspired by the show MMA and DRG put on, I still could not get myself to drop that amount of cash for the content Gom produces. $240 for what still is a secondary english stream is just not the value I can justify as a starving college student. If this was moved to SC2 General I'm sure more people could weigh in on this as it took months and a closely related thread (thanks Mani and Torte) to find this quality opinion piece.
240 dollars? I just paid 69 dollars for the GSL Light ticket for the entire year....Where in the WORLD did you get 240 dollars from?
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I would like to add my gratitude for the second opportunity to read this. great message and well written. honestly the intro is the best part makes me want to watch daily 100 again.
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Didn't see this the first time around. Between this and UltraDavid's article it's been nice to read some well constructed analysis of the scene from more detached perspectives. Things that people often say after a bubble pops are "How did we not see this coming?" or "why was nothing done to prevent it from crashing so badly?" Here's to hoping the right people have enough foresight to make E-Sports last.
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On December 20 2011 03:02 Bonkarooni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 17:05 BFCrimson wrote: Wonderful article written very thoughtfully. The GSL season ticket options have been nagging at me since I watched the GSL Blizzcup Finals and although I was incredibly inspired by the show MMA and DRG put on, I still could not get myself to drop that amount of cash for the content Gom produces. $240 for what still is a secondary english stream is just not the value I can justify as a starving college student. If this was moved to SC2 General I'm sure more people could weigh in on this as it took months and a closely related thread (thanks Mani and Torte) to find this quality opinion piece. 240 dollars? I just paid 69 dollars for the GSL Light ticket for the entire year....Where in the WORLD did you get 240 dollars from?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dfiAj.png) If you want GSTL as well.
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I could have been extreme and said $420 for GSL + GSTL + No Ads but I don't honestly expect anyone to purchase this. GSTL is important to me and I just felt that, as others have said, is not worth the money for the content. If nothing changes I will probably end buying the $70 package but will be sad not to get the GSTL included with the package.
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This whole article was amazing. I also liked your little history lesson on comics (I didn't know anything about that) and it compares really well to the situation today. I'm surprised as well as others that this topic didn't launch a huge discussion. Why is that?!
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Wow, I have to appreciate the effort that went into that post there. However, while I agree with you on most points, I believe that e-sports is not nearly as well-established as comics were when they started selling the mint copies, so that, for the time being, money going into the e-sports scene merely helps build it as apposed to inflating it.
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I'm happy that Mani's recent blog has led me to this post. It is extremely well-written and while the analogy isn't exactly perfect we should still learn the lessons from the past. As has been mentioned the bubble could lead to a return in investment instead of a burst, but I think it's still a good idea to be careful with where your esport dollars go.
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Shocked that this only has three pages of comments, Very well written article gives us all a lot to think about.
I think one key point to pull our of that is to let the invisible hand do its work separating the good and bad organizations. The good and bad tournaments will improve and those that don't improve enough will disapear. If you like the product get the product, if it is not good don't support it.
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