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TL Health and Fitness Initiative 2010 - Page 182

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RosaParksStoleMySeat
Profile Joined December 2009
Japan926 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 03:26:07
November 23 2010 03:24 GMT
#3621
Question: how crucial is it to eat before a workout? I'm wondering if my not eating before hitting the gym is affecting my performance. After my workout I'll drink a liter of 4.5% milk (<3 Japanese milk) with two scoops of whey, a large steak or chicken breast, and a few eggs, but I'm just not hungry first thing in the morning. I don't want to stuff food down my throat right after I wake up, and would prefer to just have my Jack3d.

Today:

Squat, 110kg, x5x3 (belted up for the last set, was ez)
Bench, 84kg, 4, 2, 1 (WTF. I think it was my shoulder ... I kind of positioned the bar poorly in my front squat on Sunday, hurting it a little. I need to learn how to hold it better.)
Pull, x10 x8 x7

You know your cut is going well if your squat, bench, press, and dead are getting harder while your pulls and chins are getting easier =].
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
November 23 2010 03:33 GMT
#3622
Totally just saw a KizZBG post in Teen Misc. ALERT ALERT.
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
November 23 2010 03:54 GMT
#3623
On November 23 2010 12:24 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
Question: how crucial is it to eat before a workout? I'm wondering if my not eating before hitting the gym is affecting my performance. After my workout I'll drink a liter of 4.5% milk (<3 Japanese milk) with two scoops of whey, a large steak or chicken breast, and a few eggs, but I'm just not hungry first thing in the morning. I don't want to stuff food down my throat right after I wake up, and would prefer to just have my Jack3d.

Today:

Squat, 110kg, x5x3 (belted up for the last set, was ez)
Bench, 84kg, 4, 2, 1 (WTF. I think it was my shoulder ... I kind of positioned the bar poorly in my front squat on Sunday, hurting it a little. I need to learn how to hold it better.)
Pull, x10 x8 x7

You know your cut is going well if your squat, bench, press, and dead are getting harder while your pulls and chins are getting easier =].


How much do you spend on food per month, just out of curiosity.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
RosaParksStoleMySeat
Profile Joined December 2009
Japan926 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 04:07:10
November 23 2010 04:06 GMT
#3624
On November 23 2010 12:54 Cambium wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2010 12:24 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
Question: how crucial is it to eat before a workout? I'm wondering if my not eating before hitting the gym is affecting my performance. After my workout I'll drink a liter of 4.5% milk (<3 Japanese milk) with two scoops of whey, a large steak or chicken breast, and a few eggs, but I'm just not hungry first thing in the morning. I don't want to stuff food down my throat right after I wake up, and would prefer to just have my Jack3d.

Today:

Squat, 110kg, x5x3 (belted up for the last set, was ez)
Bench, 84kg, 4, 2, 1 (WTF. I think it was my shoulder ... I kind of positioned the bar poorly in my front squat on Sunday, hurting it a little. I need to learn how to hold it better.)
Pull, x10 x8 x7

You know your cut is going well if your squat, bench, press, and dead are getting harder while your pulls and chins are getting easier =].


How much do you spend on food per month, just out of curiosity.


Japanese food is great ... but expensive, ask you know. A liter of milk costs $2.00 USD, a carton of 10 eggs costs $3.00 USD, and all of the meats vary heavily in price. I'm happy to spend $1.50 on a single chicken breast and $4.00 on an Australian steak (a Japanese steak would cost me $6.00...), and I flip out when the price doubles up to $3.00 for a single breast.

Excluding dates (on which I can easily spend $100 to eat out aww yeah), I'm probably burning through 35,000 yen ($420) on food a month. Fasting two days a week will probably lower this number to about 30,000 yen ($370?) a month. I mean, I can afford to spend this much money on food because I have a solid job with a good salary, but the typical way of saving money on food in Japan is to eat white rice + something (natto, some meat, some types of vegetables, or kimchi). That's something I can't do.
Ingenol
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1328 Posts
November 23 2010 04:07 GMT
#3625
On November 23 2010 12:24 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
Question: how crucial is it to eat before a workout? I'm wondering if my not eating before hitting the gym is affecting my performance. After my workout I'll drink a liter of 4.5% milk (<3 Japanese milk) with two scoops of whey, a large steak or chicken breast, and a few eggs, but I'm just not hungry first thing in the morning. I don't want to stuff food down my throat right after I wake up, and would prefer to just have my Jack3d.

Today:

Squat, 110kg, x5x3 (belted up for the last set, was ez)
Bench, 84kg, 4, 2, 1 (WTF. I think it was my shoulder ... I kind of positioned the bar poorly in my front squat on Sunday, hurting it a little. I need to learn how to hold it better.)
Pull, x10 x8 x7

You know your cut is going well if your squat, bench, press, and dead are getting harder while your pulls and chins are getting easier =].

Not crucial at all. I do all my training fasted, although I take 10 g of BCAA's 15 minutes beforehand and recommend it.
RosaParksStoleMySeat
Profile Joined December 2009
Japan926 Posts
November 23 2010 04:08 GMT
#3626
On November 23 2010 13:07 Ingenol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2010 12:24 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
Question: how crucial is it to eat before a workout? I'm wondering if my not eating before hitting the gym is affecting my performance. After my workout I'll drink a liter of 4.5% milk (<3 Japanese milk) with two scoops of whey, a large steak or chicken breast, and a few eggs, but I'm just not hungry first thing in the morning. I don't want to stuff food down my throat right after I wake up, and would prefer to just have my Jack3d.

Today:

Squat, 110kg, x5x3 (belted up for the last set, was ez)
Bench, 84kg, 4, 2, 1 (WTF. I think it was my shoulder ... I kind of positioned the bar poorly in my front squat on Sunday, hurting it a little. I need to learn how to hold it better.)
Pull, x10 x8 x7

You know your cut is going well if your squat, bench, press, and dead are getting harder while your pulls and chins are getting easier =].

Not crucial at all. I do all my training fasted, although I take 10 g of BCAA's 15 minutes beforehand and recommend it.


Interesting. I take Jack3d before a workout, and would stacking it with the product you mentioned be a good idea?
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
November 23 2010 04:17 GMT
#3627
On November 23 2010 13:06 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2010 12:54 Cambium wrote:
On November 23 2010 12:24 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
Question: how crucial is it to eat before a workout? I'm wondering if my not eating before hitting the gym is affecting my performance. After my workout I'll drink a liter of 4.5% milk (<3 Japanese milk) with two scoops of whey, a large steak or chicken breast, and a few eggs, but I'm just not hungry first thing in the morning. I don't want to stuff food down my throat right after I wake up, and would prefer to just have my Jack3d.

Today:

Squat, 110kg, x5x3 (belted up for the last set, was ez)
Bench, 84kg, 4, 2, 1 (WTF. I think it was my shoulder ... I kind of positioned the bar poorly in my front squat on Sunday, hurting it a little. I need to learn how to hold it better.)
Pull, x10 x8 x7

You know your cut is going well if your squat, bench, press, and dead are getting harder while your pulls and chins are getting easier =].


How much do you spend on food per month, just out of curiosity.


Japanese food is great ... but expensive, ask you know. A liter of milk costs $2.00 USD, a carton of 10 eggs costs $3.00 USD, and all of the meats vary heavily in price. I'm happy to spend $1.50 on a single chicken breast and $4.00 on an Australian steak (a Japanese steak would cost me $6.00...), and I flip out when the price doubles up to $3.00 for a single breast.

Excluding dates (on which I can easily spend $100 to eat out aww yeah), I'm probably burning through 35,000 yen ($420) on food a month. Fasting two days a week will probably lower this number to about 30,000 yen ($370?) a month. I mean, I can afford to spend this much money on food because I have a solid job with a good salary, but the typical way of saving money on food in Japan is to eat white rice + something (natto, some meat, some types of vegetables, or kimchi). That's something I can't do.


That's not bad at all. I was just curious because I lived in Tokyo for almost a year, and I would spend at least $500 on groceries every month, and I wasn't eating nearly as much as I am now.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
RosaParksStoleMySeat
Profile Joined December 2009
Japan926 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 04:27:08
November 23 2010 04:26 GMT
#3628
On November 23 2010 13:17 Cambium wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2010 13:06 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
On November 23 2010 12:54 Cambium wrote:
On November 23 2010 12:24 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
Question: how crucial is it to eat before a workout? I'm wondering if my not eating before hitting the gym is affecting my performance. After my workout I'll drink a liter of 4.5% milk (<3 Japanese milk) with two scoops of whey, a large steak or chicken breast, and a few eggs, but I'm just not hungry first thing in the morning. I don't want to stuff food down my throat right after I wake up, and would prefer to just have my Jack3d.

Today:

Squat, 110kg, x5x3 (belted up for the last set, was ez)
Bench, 84kg, 4, 2, 1 (WTF. I think it was my shoulder ... I kind of positioned the bar poorly in my front squat on Sunday, hurting it a little. I need to learn how to hold it better.)
Pull, x10 x8 x7

You know your cut is going well if your squat, bench, press, and dead are getting harder while your pulls and chins are getting easier =].


How much do you spend on food per month, just out of curiosity.


Japanese food is great ... but expensive, ask you know. A liter of milk costs $2.00 USD, a carton of 10 eggs costs $3.00 USD, and all of the meats vary heavily in price. I'm happy to spend $1.50 on a single chicken breast and $4.00 on an Australian steak (a Japanese steak would cost me $6.00...), and I flip out when the price doubles up to $3.00 for a single breast.

Excluding dates (on which I can easily spend $100 to eat out aww yeah), I'm probably burning through 35,000 yen ($420) on food a month. Fasting two days a week will probably lower this number to about 30,000 yen ($370?) a month. I mean, I can afford to spend this much money on food because I have a solid job with a good salary, but the typical way of saving money on food in Japan is to eat white rice + something (natto, some meat, some types of vegetables, or kimchi). That's something I can't do.


That's not bad at all. I was just curious because I lived in Tokyo for almost a year, and I would spend at least $500 on groceries every month, and I wasn't eating nearly as much as I am now.


Yeah, that's Tokyo for you.

Stuff gets expensive here easily. The combini is pretty much the biggest money drainer in this country, where stuff is about 2-3 times as expensive as it is if you madke it yourself. I used to eat too much food from convenience stores, and it was easy to buy a 500 yen lunch box, a piece of chicken, and a drink. Boom, 800 yen for one meal.

Last winter I was doing this at least once a day and barely cooking anything. Hell, when I went to work, I would buy a piece of curry bread, a nikuman, and a coffee from the convenience store every morning as well. At that time I was easily spending 50,000 yen/month on food, excluding dates.
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13004 Posts
November 23 2010 04:27 GMT
#3629
Australia steak is cheaper in Japan than Australia =/
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 04:43:36
November 23 2010 04:41 GMT
#3630
Some people perform better in workouts semi-fasted (ate someting 2-3 hours before... sometimes even 1), sometimes with half a meal, others perform better just fasted. figure out what works best for you. I personally didn't see a difference whether I had eaten beforehand or not with my workouts so it was just whatever and I just ate whenever I felt like it.

Usually you dont eat before a workout unless you're trying to mass gain, and even then it would be liquids like milk obviously.

That's the only time I would say to eat (rather drink milk) preworkout, during the workout, and post workout milk +food

I also used to use deadlifts to stimulate my appetite when I had some weights in my basement a while ago. Eat... then go do a couple of sets of heavy deads then eat more. Of course, I'm still pretty light so.... obviously I dind't do it long enough haha
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
AoN.DimSum
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2983 Posts
November 23 2010 04:48 GMT
#3631
On November 23 2010 10:23 Drowsy wrote:
Definitely got some mono-pull going on. You need less early arm bend, keep the bar closer to your body when initiating the 2nd pull, and more full hip extension at the top of the pull. It doesn't matter that much if you're just doing it for Rugby, but if you want to continue on to full snatching for oly lifting those things are going to need fixing.


good points :D
The main thing i saw was your pull off the ground. you jerked it off the ground and your back loosens up. Keep your back tight when pulling off the ground and your pull will be a lot better. Also try not to jump, your feet should be sliding out but I would not concentrate on that yet.
It looks very good for a beginner!
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20010 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 05:10:05
November 23 2010 05:09 GMT
#3632
On November 23 2010 13:48 AoN.DimSum wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2010 10:23 Drowsy wrote:
Definitely got some mono-pull going on. You need less early arm bend, keep the bar closer to your body when initiating the 2nd pull, and more full hip extension at the top of the pull. It doesn't matter that much if you're just doing it for Rugby, but if you want to continue on to full snatching for oly lifting those things are going to need fixing.


good points :D
The main thing i saw was your pull off the ground. you jerked it off the ground and your back loosens up. Keep your back tight when pulling off the ground and your pull will be a lot better. Also try not to jump, your feet should be sliding out but I would not concentrate on that yet.
It looks very good for a beginner!


-Whats the diff between first/second pulls?
-When i'm putting the bar above my head, i bend my arms, get under it, and lock out underneath (catching it not pushing it) it right?
-Any tips/tricks welcome
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
Koagel
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria167 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 11:00:41
November 23 2010 09:33 GMT
#3633
On November 23 2010 09:08 eshlow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On November 23 2010 05:35 Koagel wrote:
First of all, your link mostly criticises the DGAC for only using data that supports their claims and omitting the ones that oppose them. They don't "debunk" the links I posted. They add a meta-analysis that implies that the weight loss from a low carb diets is higher on short notice, but doesn't differ significantly with time, which, albeit maybe insignificantly (again, low number of participants, small deviations in the curve don't have to mean anything), is shown in a graph in the first study I posted.
The links I posted were taken from a publication by a nutrition physician (or whatever the english word is) that teaches at our university and is respected in his field. Although this does not make the claims true, it can be assumed that he can discriminate crappy designs from good ones. Just because the results of studies differ from your expectations, they don't have to be bad.

The problem with fats is not that they're all bad, but most foods that contain high amounts of fat do contain the ones you don't want. I don't think there are good or bad fats, just those you get too much of and those you don't. Our script on nutrition said that you don't want to deviate too much from the recommendations, because it can lead to misreactions if the ratio is off since the lipids "compete" for the enzymes that build lipid cell membranes and lipoproteins. The ratio given was 14:5:1 (n9:n6:n3).

Btw, holy crap it takes long to participate in these discussions in a foreign language. :-/

Show nested quote +
Of course not, but the total number of deaths was only 455.

Why exactly do you believe that this is not enough?

EDIT:
I don't defend any of the recommandations by DGAC, how could I, I haven't read it. I'm just very critical about diets that center around cutting just one of the macro nutrients.
The point that evidence that supports a benefit from ketogenic diets is lacking is still valid.


1. The quickest way to lose fat mass and retain lean mass is through a lower carb or ketogenic diet. This isn't really debatable because it's fairly proven.

That was the initial premise I *thought* I was arguing against.

To address the point in your post I have absolutely no clue where you got that from the link I posted. Because I'm quoting this directly out of there:

The NEL contains evidence that is not consistent with this conclusion; several included studies show that a low-carbohydrate diet can produce significantly greater weight loss than a low-fat diet, even when caloric intake is held constant between diets [15], [16], [17], [18]. Figure 2 shows results from a study by Volek et al. [15] demonstrating greater weight loss on a low-carbohydrate diet compared with a low-fat diet, with similar caloric intake. Several studies in the NEL demonstrate equivalent or increased weight loss on low-carbohydrate diets that do not explicitly control calories or impose restrictive eating behaviors [15], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24]. A full assessment of the science would recognize these departures from the stated conclusion.


This is in addition to a lower attrition rate through the studies.


2. In terms of health, both low carb, and high carb diets can be beneficial but ONLY if there's a lack of any types of processed food in the diet.

If you read through the low fat vs high fat in the link I posted it would've also told you that in terms of HEALTH lower fat diets significantly improved cardiovascular risk factors (in terms of atherosclerosis, heart disease, stroke, etc) MORE significantly than the lower fat diets.

•There were significant differences between the groups for weight, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, triglycerides, and systolic blood pressure favoring the low-carbohydrate diet.

•There was a higher attrition rate in the low-fat as compared with the low-carbohydrate groups suggesting a patient preference for a low-carbohydrate/high-protein approach [in contrast to the statement from D1-47 that they are “difficult to adhere to”].

•Evidence from this systematic review demonstrates that low-carbohydrate/high-protein diets are more effective at 6 months and are as effective, if not more, as low-fat diets in reducing weight and cardiovascular disease risk up to one year.


I'm not sure why you're saying there's no support for my using this link to debunk the studies you cited because there's moer than enough in here to say as such.


In addition, saturated fat is actually healthy for people. We can argue this point if you want too.

Couple studies on that:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2009.29146v1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648

Table 2 presents the effect on cardiovascular risk markers of total and saturated fat [15], [26], [27], [28], [43], [44]. The data, from studies and meta-analyses included in the NEL and elsewhere, show that when participants switched from their habitual diet to a low-carbohydrate diet (<45% of calories), neither total fat nor saturated fat consumption changed significantly, whereas positive changes occurred in cardiovascular risk markers. These findings are inconsistent with concerns regarding fat, specifically saturated fat. A comprehensive assessment of the science would necessarily result in a conclusion that addresses this inconsistency.


Generally, positive cardiovascular risk markers or neutral from intake of saturated fats.


And if you go on they write:

This conclusion is based on 36 articles published since 2004. … Twenty studies found no difference in weight loss between diets differing in macronutrient proportion. … Thirteen studies found that lower-CHO [carbohydrate] diets reduced weight significantly more than low-fat or higher-CHO diets. … Four studies found that higher-PRO [protein] diets reduced weight significantly more than lower-PRO or higher-CHO diets [pp. D1-47, 48].

It is not clear what “moderate amount of evidence” means in this context; 47% of the cited studies demonstrate that low-carbohydrate or high-protein diets, whether hypocaloric or otherwise, are in fact more effective. A responsibly worded summary would acknowledge these contradictory findings.

47% found out that lower carb or high protein diets induce greater weight loss. I'd call that controversial, not proof of them being more effective.
They criticise that the DGAC forgets to mention that studies on this subject are inconclusive, not that they believe the opposite of the DGAC suggestions is true.


1. The quickest way to lose fat mass and retain lean mass is through a lower carb or ketogenic diet. This isn't really debatable because it's fairly proven.

That was the initial premise I *thought* I was arguing against.

What? That's the premise *I* am arguing against.

Also, cardiovascular risk factors are just that, risk factors. If the mortality is increased although theses factors are influenced in a positive way, it's still unhealthy.

I've changed my viewpoint from "Low carb diets aren't more effective than other diets that cut down the same amount of kcal" to "evidence is lacking, no final statement possible".
The other stuff is still valid, though.

EDIT:

Japanese food is great ... but expensive, ask you know. A liter of milk costs $2.00 USD, a carton of 10 eggs costs $3.00 USD, and all of the meats vary heavily in price. I'm happy to spend $1.50 on a single chicken breast and $4.00 on an Australian steak (a Japanese steak would cost me $6.00...), and I flip out when the price doubles up to $3.00 for a single breast.

Milk is much cheaper here (around half the price), 6 eggs cost 2.20 EUR if you buy indoor, and more if yarded. Chicken breast usually isn't below 2 EUR per piece, and decent pieces of beef steak aren't below 6 EUR if you buy this disgusting premarinated stuff, usually more. My mother works in the Vienna International Center (UNO complex in Vienna) and can buy it there, a decent rib eye for about 3 EUR. That's incredibly cheap when compaired to normal Austrian beef prices.
grobo
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Japan6199 Posts
November 23 2010 12:46 GMT
#3634
What do you guys think about Gold Standard's whey? just got a pretty sweet deal on 2kg but i'm not sure if i should switch from what i'm currently using. I've heard it's pretty good though.

Also, 1month of going to the gym this time around, feels good man.
We make signature, then defense it.
sJarl
Profile Joined September 2010
Iceland1699 Posts
November 23 2010 12:54 GMT
#3635
Gold standard is the best whey I've had in years!
"Witness!" - Karsa Orlong
RosaParksStoleMySeat
Profile Joined December 2009
Japan926 Posts
November 23 2010 13:30 GMT
#3636
On November 23 2010 21:54 sJarl wrote:
Gold standard is the best whey I've had in years!


I agree. I love the stuff.

However, whey is generally whey. They'll throw some fancy labels on it ... micronized whey, hydronated whey, reverse cowgirl whey, but in my opinion, taste and mixability are the two key factors. I've had whey that tasted terrible and whey that would always clump up at the bottom, making it unmanageable.

If your current whey is fine, finish the bag of it first and then move on to Gold Standard. Or just come to my place and have some ... I have like 10kg of the stuff sitting around :\.
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 14:58:19
November 23 2010 14:29 GMT
#3637
On November 23 2010 18:33 Koagel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2010 09:08 eshlow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On November 23 2010 05:35 Koagel wrote:
First of all, your link mostly criticises the DGAC for only using data that supports their claims and omitting the ones that oppose them. They don't "debunk" the links I posted. They add a meta-analysis that implies that the weight loss from a low carb diets is higher on short notice, but doesn't differ significantly with time, which, albeit maybe insignificantly (again, low number of participants, small deviations in the curve don't have to mean anything), is shown in a graph in the first study I posted.
The links I posted were taken from a publication by a nutrition physician (or whatever the english word is) that teaches at our university and is respected in his field. Although this does not make the claims true, it can be assumed that he can discriminate crappy designs from good ones. Just because the results of studies differ from your expectations, they don't have to be bad.

The problem with fats is not that they're all bad, but most foods that contain high amounts of fat do contain the ones you don't want. I don't think there are good or bad fats, just those you get too much of and those you don't. Our script on nutrition said that you don't want to deviate too much from the recommendations, because it can lead to misreactions if the ratio is off since the lipids "compete" for the enzymes that build lipid cell membranes and lipoproteins. The ratio given was 14:5:1 (n9:n6:n3).

Btw, holy crap it takes long to participate in these discussions in a foreign language. :-/

Show nested quote +
Of course not, but the total number of deaths was only 455.

Why exactly do you believe that this is not enough?

EDIT:
I don't defend any of the recommandations by DGAC, how could I, I haven't read it. I'm just very critical about diets that center around cutting just one of the macro nutrients.
The point that evidence that supports a benefit from ketogenic diets is lacking is still valid.


1. The quickest way to lose fat mass and retain lean mass is through a lower carb or ketogenic diet. This isn't really debatable because it's fairly proven.

That was the initial premise I *thought* I was arguing against.

To address the point in your post I have absolutely no clue where you got that from the link I posted. Because I'm quoting this directly out of there:

The NEL contains evidence that is not consistent with this conclusion; several included studies show that a low-carbohydrate diet can produce significantly greater weight loss than a low-fat diet, even when caloric intake is held constant between diets [15], [16], [17], [18]. Figure 2 shows results from a study by Volek et al. [15] demonstrating greater weight loss on a low-carbohydrate diet compared with a low-fat diet, with similar caloric intake. Several studies in the NEL demonstrate equivalent or increased weight loss on low-carbohydrate diets that do not explicitly control calories or impose restrictive eating behaviors [15], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24]. A full assessment of the science would recognize these departures from the stated conclusion.


This is in addition to a lower attrition rate through the studies.


2. In terms of health, both low carb, and high carb diets can be beneficial but ONLY if there's a lack of any types of processed food in the diet.

If you read through the low fat vs high fat in the link I posted it would've also told you that in terms of HEALTH lower fat diets significantly improved cardiovascular risk factors (in terms of atherosclerosis, heart disease, stroke, etc) MORE significantly than the lower fat diets.

•There were significant differences between the groups for weight, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, triglycerides, and systolic blood pressure favoring the low-carbohydrate diet.

•There was a higher attrition rate in the low-fat as compared with the low-carbohydrate groups suggesting a patient preference for a low-carbohydrate/high-protein approach [in contrast to the statement from D1-47 that they are “difficult to adhere to”].

•Evidence from this systematic review demonstrates that low-carbohydrate/high-protein diets are more effective at 6 months and are as effective, if not more, as low-fat diets in reducing weight and cardiovascular disease risk up to one year.


I'm not sure why you're saying there's no support for my using this link to debunk the studies you cited because there's moer than enough in here to say as such.


In addition, saturated fat is actually healthy for people. We can argue this point if you want too.

Couple studies on that:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2009.29146v1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648

Table 2 presents the effect on cardiovascular risk markers of total and saturated fat [15], [26], [27], [28], [43], [44]. The data, from studies and meta-analyses included in the NEL and elsewhere, show that when participants switched from their habitual diet to a low-carbohydrate diet (<45% of calories), neither total fat nor saturated fat consumption changed significantly, whereas positive changes occurred in cardiovascular risk markers. These findings are inconsistent with concerns regarding fat, specifically saturated fat. A comprehensive assessment of the science would necessarily result in a conclusion that addresses this inconsistency.


Generally, positive cardiovascular risk markers or neutral from intake of saturated fats.


And if you go on they write:
Show nested quote +

This conclusion is based on 36 articles published since 2004. … Twenty studies found no difference in weight loss between diets differing in macronutrient proportion. … Thirteen studies found that lower-CHO [carbohydrate] diets reduced weight significantly more than low-fat or higher-CHO diets. … Four studies found that higher-PRO [protein] diets reduced weight significantly more than lower-PRO or higher-CHO diets [pp. D1-47, 48].

It is not clear what “moderate amount of evidence” means in this context; 47% of the cited studies demonstrate that low-carbohydrate or high-protein diets, whether hypocaloric or otherwise, are in fact more effective. A responsibly worded summary would acknowledge these contradictory findings.

47% found out that lower carb or high protein diets induce greater weight loss. I'd call that controversial, not proof of them being more effective.
They criticise that the DGAC forgets to mention that studies on this subject are inconclusive, not that they believe the opposite of the DGAC suggestions is true.

Show nested quote +

1. The quickest way to lose fat mass and retain lean mass is through a lower carb or ketogenic diet. This isn't really debatable because it's fairly proven.

That was the initial premise I *thought* I was arguing against.

What? That's the premise *I* am arguing against.

Also, cardiovascular risk factors are just that, risk factors. If the mortality is increased although theses factors are influenced in a positive way, it's still unhealthy.

I've changed my viewpoint from "Low carb diets aren't more effective than other diets that cut down the same amount of kcal" to "evidence is lacking, no final statement possible".
The other stuff is still valid, though.


1. Considering that actuaally the very low carb/ketos do lose more weight both anecdotally (there's a reason why cutting bodybuilders go low carb) and in those studies too.

If there's one thing that professional BBers/fitness models/etc are good with its their nutrition science (I don't know why everyone lags so far behind...) but the majority of them go low carb because it works better and it helps retain more lean tissue.

2. Risk factors are predictive of overall disease and mortality. For every study where you can find something like the one you posted I can find others that show the opposite. I don't want to have to waste my time to do this but in general....

Eat real foods. Fairly balanced is good (meat, eggs, fish, fowl, nuts, fruits, vege, spices, good oils,) and in generally you're good to go.

edit: dont feel like discussing this anymore so whatever! Already done enough of this in this whole 182 page thread
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
sJarl
Profile Joined September 2010
Iceland1699 Posts
November 23 2010 15:10 GMT
#3638
On November 23 2010 22:30 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2010 21:54 sJarl wrote:
Gold standard is the best whey I've had in years!


I agree. I love the stuff.

However, whey is generally whey. They'll throw some fancy labels on it ... micronized whey, hydronated whey, reverse cowgirl whey, but in my opinion, taste and mixability are the two key factors. I've had whey that tasted terrible and whey that would always clump up at the bottom, making it unmanageable.

If your current whey is fine, finish the bag of it first and then move on to Gold Standard. Or just come to my place and have some ... I have like 10kg of the stuff sitting around :\.


If the shipping wouldn't kill me I'd suggest you give me some :D
"Witness!" - Karsa Orlong
Koagel
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria167 Posts
November 23 2010 16:05 GMT
#3639
Alright, it's not like we'll reach a consensus anyway and it's fairly boring for others to read...
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 17:24:14
November 23 2010 17:23 GMT
#3640
On November 23 2010 13:41 eshlow wrote:
Some people perform better in workouts semi-fasted (ate someting 2-3 hours before... sometimes even 1), sometimes with half a meal, others perform better just fasted. figure out what works best for you. I personally didn't see a difference whether I had eaten beforehand or not with my workouts so it was just whatever and I just ate whenever I felt like it.

Usually you dont eat before a workout unless you're trying to mass gain, and even then it would be liquids like milk obviously.

That's the only time I would say to eat (rather drink milk) preworkout, during the workout, and post workout milk +food

I also used to use deadlifts to stimulate my appetite when I had some weights in my basement a while ago. Eat... then go do a couple of sets of heavy deads then eat more. Of course, I'm still pretty light so.... obviously I dind't do it long enough haha


i can't imagine working out fasted.. i tried it once, kind of (woke up early, had a veryy small breakfast, and tried working out ~1hr later) failed so hard, didn't even get through my warmup sets lol. different strokes for different folks i guess. i usually work out about 2 hours after my biggest meal, and eat a snack after (bagel + almond butter + 2 cups of milk)

speaking of snacks.. i've started munching on nuts lately (hazel & walnut). are all nuts made equal or should i get some specific ones?

also, one last question, might be a bit tricky... what's a good less-bad fast food place for lunch? (yeah yeah.. i know)
atm i usually grab a 12" sub from subway and their 500ml milk. pretty good for $8, but i know it's processed food and etc..
i work downtown toronto so i should have access to pretty much everything that's popular
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
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