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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 341

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Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-06 15:00:19
January 04 2017 11:14 GMT
#6801
Hero Builds have been bugged since 7.01 launch. Can't do anything in terms of updates.

Here is my homework:

  • Change Titles to 7.01
  • Update Techies Skill Build
  • Update Undying Skill Build
  • Make sure to have Nature's Prophet guide re-classified as a hero build
  • Update Crystal Maiden entirely (see patch notes)
  • Juggernaut get Maelstrom/Mjollnir
  • Add Medallion of Courage to VS Core Items. Aether to Situational
  • Techies: Eul's into Explode combo. Eul's First item? Re-look at Core Items
  • Lone Druid - Range build





To-Do:

  • Ember Spirit (Core/Safe) change to Magic Version
  • Arc Warden (Core/Safe) change to Shadow Blade/Orchid version
  • Weaver (Offlane) change to be more Support [?]
  • Deleted Guides have their 'lane version' as a tab in other hero builds


Potential New Guides (Part 2) subject to change
Abaddon (Support)
Batrider (Jungle)
Chaos Knight (Offlane or Support?)
Enchantress (Offlane)
Morphling (Support or Offlane?)
Mirana (Support) - Roaming
Nature's Prophet (Offlane)
Necrophos (Offlane) or (Support)
Omniknight (Core) - Offlane?
Riki (Core) - Safe Lane
Treant Protector (Offlane or Jungle?)
Vengeful Spirit (Core) - Safe Lane
Zeus (Support) - Safe Lane

Potential Guides to be Removed (Part 2) subject to change
Ancient Apparition (Core) 580,943
Bloodseeker (Middle) 880,376
Oracle (Core) 370,349
Earth Spirit (Core) 609,431
Shadow Shaman (Core) 189,407
Slark (Core/Mid) 816,147
Tiny (Core/Mid) 1,122,928
Troll Warlord (Offlane) 709,753
Warlock (Core) 258,054
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
January 06 2017 12:06 GMT
#6802
Hero Builds are fixed.

First steps:
  • Full test of issues from dev.dota report
  • Make topic about the fixed issues and still prominent problems
  • Apply initial changes planned above + feedback
  • Start cataloging entire talent tree rework for all hero builds
  • commit suicide after exhausted work day
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-07 13:32:53
January 07 2017 13:15 GMT
#6803
After 15 days (December 22 to January 6), we have risen from 184,250,665 to 188,120,189 combined subscriptions

A difference of 3,869,524
Average Subscribers per Guide is 1,237,632.82
Growth Percentage is 2.10%


5 least popular guides (bottom being the least popular):
  1. Oracle (Core) (376,158)
  2. Naga Siren (Support) (337,618)
  3. Warlock (Core) (290,741)
  4. Underlord (Support) (200,674)
  5. Shadow Shaman (Core) (198,649)


5 most popular guides (top being the most popular):
  1. Sven
  2. Lifestealer (Jungle)
  3. Phantom Assassin
  4. Juggernaut
  5. Faceless Void


Notable Growths in Subscriptions:
  • Mirana (1,972,518 -> 2,009,284)
  • Slark (Core/Safe) (1,885,762 -> 1,948,787)
  • Luna (1,887,409 -> 1,939,280)
  • Drow Ranger (1,841,621 -> 1,897,810)
  • Lion (1,331,786 -> 1,361,783)
  • Weaver (Core) (1,244,343 -> 1,303,731)
  • Axe (Core) (1,201,110 -> 1,252,605)
  • Alchemist (Core/Mid) (986,512 -> 1,021,608)


Newly Released Guides:




    Patreon.com/Torte, this project continues to be made possible by the contributions of:

    Alfred Vogl, Pearson Mewbourne, Oliver Varah, Ben Lewis-Evans, Michael Carmody, Leonardo Lambertini, Scott MacDonald, Sutas, Nicholas Chlumecky, Dice, Bartlomiej Jan Pasek, Christopher 'HYphY' Horrall, Michael Kaeser, Noah, Tony Heugh, Lowe Schmidt, James Merrill, Guitaringegg, JimmaDaRustla, Graham Bullard, Daxdiv, Mikey Kaminski, Ryan Goss, Freeze ray, Nate Hubbard, The WLD Crew, Benjamin Miller, Kistaro Windrider, Elliot Cuite, Daniel Thackray, Jose Cacho, Matthew Nami, tale, LordDay, Joel Absolom, Julian Koniger, Benedikt Kusemann, Rafael Silva, Esko Harhakoski, S J, Gabriel F. Brondino, Tyler Reid, Hursha, Aaron Bell, Jason Davis, Cooper Johnson, Samuel Enocsson, slashershot, Igor Dolgiy, Ramona Brown, Duncan, Alishams Hassam, Leon Traill, Josh Laseter, Dylan Lauritsen, Daniel Cavanagh, Genc Musliu, Joshua Rodman, Moe Foster

    Portions of their pledges will go to long-time community members, dedicated to providing feedback to keep this collection of hero builds accurate to current standards of play.
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Torte de Lini
    Profile Blog Joined September 2010
    Germany38463 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-07 13:23:14
    January 07 2017 13:23 GMT
    #6804
      This latest update and hero builds changes was made possible thanks to the feedback and knowledge of the following community members. Sincere thank you to: Buckyman, Belisarius, wockeez2706, -methane-, alfilo_, GrillMySkull, DarknessOfLove, dannycalamity, NewDark90

    • 18.68% of last month's unique players [13,935,496] are subscribed to the our highest subscribed guide: Sven Guide

    • Mirana (2,009,284) recently hit the 2 million mark

    • Alchemist (Core/Mid) (1,021,608) recently hit the 1 million mark

    • Four guides are currently swimming towards the 1 million mark:
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Torte de Lini
    Profile Blog Joined September 2010
    Germany38463 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-10 18:25:50
    January 07 2017 14:53 GMT
    #6805
    Monkey King (Offlane)
    New Skill Build: E Q W E E Q E Q Q T R R W W T W R T T (1. Jingu Mastery 2. Boundless Strike 3. Tree Dance)
    New Talent Tree: 11 (+20 Attack Speed), 16 (+20 Movement Speed), 20 (+15 Strength), 25 (+100% Boundless Strike Crit)
    Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
    Moved Black King Bar to Core Items
    Moved Manta Style to Situational Items
    Moved Infused Raindrop to Situational Items
    Moved Desolator to Extension Items
    Removed Butterfly
    Removed Sange & Yasha

    Monkey King (Core)
    New Skill Build: E Q W E E R E Q Q T Q E W W T W R T T (1. Jingu Mastery 2. Boundless Strike 3. Tree Dance)
    New Talent Tree: 11 (+20 Attack Speed), 16 (+20 Movement Speed), 20 (+40 Damage), 25 (+100% Boundless Strike Crit)
    Added Clarity to Starting Items
    Moved Manta Style to Situational Items
    Removed Bottle
    Removed Skull Basher
    Removed Sange & Yasha
    Removed Desolator

    Sven
    New Skill Build: Q E W W W R W E E T E R Q Q T Q R T T (1. Great Cleave 2. Warcry 3. Storm Hammer)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+6 Strength), 15 (+8 All Stats), 20 (+30 Attack Speed), 25 (+65 Damage)
    Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items
    Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items
    Added Satanic to Extension Items
    Moved Mask of Madness to Core Items
    Removed Daedalus
    Removed Heart of Tarrasque

    Nature's Prophet
    New Skill Build: E W E Q E R W W W T E R Q Q T Q R T T (1. Teleportation 2. Nature's Call 3. Sprout)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+20 Damage), 15 (+15 Intelligence, 20 (+35 Attack Speed), 25 (2x Treant HP/Damage)
    Added Power Treads to Core Items
    Added Blade Mail to Core Items
    Added Shadow Blade to Core Items
    Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
    Added Daedalus to Extension Items
    Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
    Moved Desolator to Core Items
    Moved Hurricane Pike to Situational Items
    Moved Silver Edge to Extension Items
    Removed Phase Boots
    Removed Magic Wand
    Removed Mjollnir
    Removed Bloodthorn

    Crystal Maiden
    New Skill Build: W E E Q Q R Q Q E T E R W W T W R T T (1. Crystal Nova 2. Arcane Aura 3. Frostbite)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+50 Damage), 15 (+125 Cast Range), 20 (+120 Gold/Min), 25 (+1.5s Frostbite Duration)
    Added Wind Lace to Core Items
    Added Veil of Discord to Situational Items
    Moved Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
    Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
    Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
    Removed Aether Lens
    Removed Eul's Scepter of Divinity

    Wraith King
    New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q E E T E R W W T W R T T (1. Wraithfire Blast 2. Mortal Strike 3. Vampiric Aura)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+15 Damage), 15 (+15 Movement Speed), 20 (+40 Attack Speed), 25 (+20% Vampiric Aura)
    Added Mask of Madness to Situational Items
    Added Radiance to Extension Items
    Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
    Moved Echo Sabre to Situational Items
    Removed Monkey King Bar

    Undying
    New Skill Build: Q W W Q E R E E E T W R W Q T Q R T T (1. Tombstone 2. Soul Rip 3. Decay)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+90 Gold/Min), 15 (+300 Health), 20 (+10 All Stats), 25 (+40 Tombstone Zombie Damage)

    Juggernaut
    New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q W W T W R E E T E R T T (1. Blade Fury 2. Healing Ward 3. Blade Dance)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+20 Damage), 15 (+20 Attack Speed), 20 (+8 All Stats), 25 (+20 Agility)
    Added Helm of the Dominator to Core Items
    Added Mjollnir to Core Items
    Removed Diffusal Blade - Level 1

    Vengeful Spirit
    New Skill Build: Q W Q W Q R Q E W T W R E E T E R T T (1. Magic Missile 2. Wave of Terror 3. Vengeance Aura)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+8% Magic Resistance), 15 (+8 All Stats), 20 (+20 Movement Speed), 25 (+20% Vengeance Aura Damage)
    Added Medallion of Courge to Core Items
    Moved Aether Lens to Situational Items

    Timbersaw
    New Skill Build: E W E Q E R E W W W T E R Q Q T Q R T T (1. Timber Chain 2. Reactive Armour 3. Whirling Death)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+150 Health), 15 (+14 Health Regen), 20 (+5% Spell Amplification), 25 (+20 Strength)

    Ember Spirit (Core/Safe)
    New Skill Build: E Q E Q E R E Q Q T W R W W T W R T T (1. Flame Guard 2. Searing Chains 3. Sleight of Fist)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+15% Magic Penetration), 15 (+6 All Stats), 20 (15% Cooldown Reduction), 25 (+2 Searing Chains)
    Added Mjolnnir to Extension Items
    Removed Quelling Blade

    Ember Spirit (Core/Mid)
    New Skill Build: E Q E Q E R E Q Q T W R W W T W R T T (1. Flame Guard 2. Searing Chains 3. Sleight of Fist)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+15% Magic Penetration), 15 (+6 All Stats), 20 (15% Cooldown Reduction), 25 (+2 Searing Chains)
    Core Items: Veil of Discord, Boots of Travel, Blink Dagger, Octarine Core
    Situational Items: Ghost Scepter, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Linken's Sphere, Manta Style
    Extension Items: Blade Mail, Shiva's Guard, Radiance, Mjollnir

    Lone Druid (Jungle)
    New Skill Build: Q W Q W Q R Q W W T E R E E T E R T T (1. Summon Spirit Bear 2. Rabid 3. Savage Roar)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+250 Health), 15 (+30 Spirit Bear Damage), 20 (+7 Spirit Bear Armor), 25 (+1.5s Entangle Duration)
    Added Mask of Madness to Extension Bear Items

    Renamed Core
    Lone Druid (Offlane)
    New Skill Build: Q W Q W Q E Q W W T E E E R T R R T T (1. Summon Spirit Bear 2. Rabid 3. Savage Road)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+200 Attack Range), 15 (+65 Damage), 20 (-50s Respawn Time), 25 (-10s Savage Roar Cooldown)
    Core - Druid: Phase Boots, Helm of the Dominator, Dragon Lance, Maelstrom
    Core - Bear: Orb of Venom, Boots of Speed
    Extension Druid Items: Black King Bar, Sange & Yasha, Hurricane Pike, Mjollnir, Satanic
    Extension Bear Items: Boots of Travel, Vladmir's Offering, Assault Cuirass

    Renamed Offlane
    Techies
    New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q E E T W R W W T W R T T (1. Proximity Mines 2. Blast Off! 3. Stasis Trap)
    New Talent Tree: 10 (+2 Mana Regen), 15 (+200 Cast Range), 20 (+120 Gold/Min), 25 (25% Cooldown Reduction)
    Added Observer Ward to Starting Items
    Added Tango to Starting Items
    Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
    Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
    Removed Town Portal Scroll
    Removed Arcane Boots
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Buckyman
    Profile Joined May 2014
    1364 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-07 18:32:42
    January 07 2017 18:27 GMT
    #6806
    The idea with Crystal Maiden is that Drum replaces Eul's and the level 15 talent replaces Aether Lens, right? Also, I'd normally object to core items on her with only a wand for +hp, but I think you're fine because all the situational items do. You might wish to slip in a situational/extension Mek/Greaves.

    ---

    I think Wraith King wants movespeed over HP, but I will defer to experience here.

    ---

    Finally, although this is low priority (stats tooltip broken), the patreon sponsor should be mentioned in the Stats tooltip where you have a placeholder.
    Torte de Lini
    Profile Blog Joined September 2010
    Germany38463 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-07 18:33:54
    January 07 2017 18:31 GMT
    #6807
    On January 08 2017 03:27 Buckyman wrote:
    The idea with Crystal Maiden is that Drum replaces Eul's and the level 15 talent replaces Aether Lens, right? Also, I'd normally object to core items on her with only a wand for +hp, but I think you're fine because all the situational items do. You might wish to slip in a situational/extension Mek/Greaves.

    Finally, although this is low priority (stats tooltip broken), the patreon sponsor should be mentioned in the Stats tooltip where you have a placeholder.


    1. Drum -> Eul's: Yes
    2. Level 15 Talent -> Aether Lens: Yes
    3. Mek/Greaves -> Didn't see it bought enough to warrant putting it on there.

    (stats tooltip broken), the patreon sponsor should be mentioned in the Stats tooltip where you have a placeholder.

    Hilariously, I cannot edit the attribute points tooltips. They also won't show in-game, so Patron Sponsors will now be a part of the item shop UI.

    4. Wraith King: Movement speed is situationally desired as you usually get Blink Dagger anyways. The health cooperates better with his usual itemization (Armlet, Blade Mail, etc.). Movement speed is always desired, but I essentially had to just pick one and I used Genting as a ruler.
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Buckyman
    Profile Joined May 2014
    1364 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-07 18:44:38
    January 07 2017 18:38 GMT
    #6808
    Dotabuff says Mek+Greaves combined are more popular than Urn on CM.
    Torte de Lini
    Profile Blog Joined September 2010
    Germany38463 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-07 18:48:33
    January 07 2017 18:46 GMT
    #6809
    On January 08 2017 03:38 Buckyman wrote:
    Dotabuff says Mek+Greaves combined are more popular than Urn on CM.

    My reasoning for MS over HP on WK is that I fear being kited to death with Armlet on far more than I fear focus fire. MoM changes that but it's Situational. Though keep in mind that I haven't actually played any WK this patch...


    We can do Mek in Situational or Greaves in Extension. Whichever you prefer.

    Agree on WK, we can switch it then.

    PS: the backslash characters appearing in the general descriptions is something I cannot remove. It re-appears each time I publish.
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Torte de Lini
    Profile Blog Joined September 2010
    Germany38463 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-07 18:52:21
    January 07 2017 18:51 GMT
    #6810
    Also, I won't be adding/removing any hero builds until 200 million (February). Mainly because I will be in Russia at the end of January and I'm feeling a little burnt out in terms of having to update all the hero builds for talent trees, doing Q&A for bugs/issues to report and revising the itemization of the heroes.

    I will start creating tabs for 'alternative' lanes to ease the transition of when I delete hero builds.
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Buckyman
    Profile Joined May 2014
    1364 Posts
    January 07 2017 21:00 GMT
    #6811
    Re: backslash chains
    It's obviously the system's fault. It's adding backslashes before apostrophes and other backslashes. You might be able to fix it by pasting in a Unicode "modifier letter apostrophe" (ʼ) which should be interpreted by their software as a letter rather than punctuation.
    Torte de Lini
    Profile Blog Joined September 2010
    Germany38463 Posts
    January 07 2017 21:22 GMT
    #6812
    On January 08 2017 06:00 Buckyman wrote:
    Re: backslash chains
    It's obviously the system's fault. It's adding backslashes before apostrophes and other backslashes. You might be able to fix it by pasting in a Unicode "modifier letter apostrophe" (ʼ) which should be interpreted by their software as a letter rather than punctuation.


    I'll just wait for Valve to fix it rather than go through so much text to add in apostrophes. It's no biggie and no one cares about the hero desc. anyways, right?
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Torte de Lini
    Profile Blog Joined September 2010
    Germany38463 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-08 00:23:17
    January 08 2017 00:20 GMT
    #6813
    I need to double-check the new Lone Druid (ranged) carry build I've just made and to find a proper Ember Spirit (Magic Pen) build to include. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2898057696/builds

    Also should I change Weaver Offlane to Support? https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2897508853/builds

    I will create a Vengeful Spirit Carry build tomorrow/Monday. It's too important now to delay.
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Buckyman
    Profile Joined May 2014
    1364 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-08 00:59:14
    January 08 2017 00:58 GMT
    #6814
    That Weaver replay demonstrates why Support Weaver doesn't work. The Weaver team lost all three lanes because Weaver couldn't trade harrass or threaten a gank on any lane, or defend against the roaming Mirana, then after scraping together 5 levels didn't do nearly enough in his first teamfight to justify even that investment. He didn't even do much warding or scouting.
    Torte de Lini
    Profile Blog Joined September 2010
    Germany38463 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-08 01:05:06
    January 08 2017 01:02 GMT
    #6815
    On January 08 2017 09:58 Buckyman wrote:
    That Weaver replay demonstrates why Support Weaver doesn't work. The Weaver team lost all three lanes because Weaver couldn't trade harrass or threaten a gank on any lane, or defend against the roaming Mirana, then after scraping together 5 levels didn't do nearly enough in his first teamfight to justify even that investment. He didn't even do much warding or scouting.


    Ok, no weaver Support. We'll just keep it Offlane + Core.
    Ember Spirit (Magic Pen) is now published.
    Lone Druid - Range, is also published. See above for changes.

    Any other heroes that need a massive overhaul? Off the top of my head, those were the only ones that had to be completely redone and the rest are just touch-ups.
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Torte de Lini
    Profile Blog Joined September 2010
    Germany38463 Posts
    Last Edited: 2017-01-08 01:05:54
    January 08 2017 01:03 GMT
    #6816
    Hero Builds have been bugged since 7.01 launch. Can't do anything in terms of updates.

    Here is my homework:

    • done





    To-Do:

    • Arc Warden (Core/Safe) change to Shadow Blade/Orchid version
    • Create Vengeful Spirit Carry Guide (need example)
    • Check Luna Skill Build
    • Check Spirit Breaker Build
    • Check Necrophos Build
    • Check Queen of Pain new build
    • Do Talent Trees for all heroes


    Potential New Guides (Part 2) subject to change
    + Show Spoiler +
    Abaddon (Support)
    Batrider (Jungle)
    Chaos Knight (Offlane or Support?)
    Enchantress (Offlane)
    Morphling (Support or Offlane?)
    Mirana (Support) - Roaming
    Nature's Prophet (Offlane)
    Necrophos (Offlane) or (Support)
    Omniknight (Core) - Offlane?
    Riki (Core) - Safe Lane
    Treant Protector (Offlane or Jungle?)
    Vengeful Spirit (Core) - Safe Lane
    Zeus (Support) - Safe Lane

    Potential Guides to be Removed (Part 2) subject to change
    Ancient Apparition (Core) 580,943
    Bloodseeker (Middle) 880,376
    Oracle (Core) 370,349
    Earth Spirit (Core) 609,431
    Shadow Shaman (Core) 189,407
    Slark (Core/Mid) 816,147
    Tiny (Core/Mid) 1,122,928
    Troll Warlord (Offlane) 709,753
    Warlock (Core) 258,054
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Buckyman
    Profile Joined May 2014
    1364 Posts
    January 08 2017 01:25 GMT
    #6817
    Luna - Currently starts with 3x branch no circlet with first item wand. Should start with circlet 2x branch so she can complete the wand off the first creep wave. She may want the third branch also, which will eventually build into HotD.
    Birdie
    Profile Blog Joined August 2007
    New Zealand4438 Posts
    January 08 2017 06:17 GMT
    #6818
    Re: ember

    Definitely get the + magic talent at level 10 even without veil, it really helps prolong ember's power spike in the mid game.

    I don't think you get aquila if you're going veil, you get enough stats from veil and you need to get BoTs ASAP after the veil. Not sure if it's just a mistake or the build is cut off or something but I don't see mjolnir in extension.
    Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
    Torte de Lini
    Profile Blog Joined September 2010
    Germany38463 Posts
    January 08 2017 09:22 GMT
    #6819
    On January 08 2017 15:17 Birdie wrote:
    Re: ember

    Definitely get the + magic talent at level 10 even without veil, it really helps prolong ember's power spike in the mid game.

    I don't think you get aquila if you're going veil, you get enough stats from veil and you need to get BoTs ASAP after the veil. Not sure if it's just a mistake or the build is cut off or something but I don't see mjolnir in extension.


    Ok. I will add Magic. Pen to Ember (Core/Safe)

    I'll double-check Veil/BoT Order and Aquila (I think that was 50/50 thing).

    Mjolnnir is in the Magic. Pen version, not the Bfury one. Should I add it to both.
    https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
    Belisarius
    Profile Joined November 2010
    Australia6225 Posts
    January 09 2017 05:55 GMT
    #6820
    Honestly I think you seriously consider veil even if you're planning to do the rightclick build. It serves the same function that drums used to in bridging the gap to BF+1.

    Magic ember is just so much stronger than non-magic ember. I don't really know what to do with non-magic ember because the right choices are probably going to be whatever makes him more like magic ember.

    The other new meta build is magic lifesteal qop. I'm not convinced it's much good, but people undoubtedly want to play it.
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