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Big Cooling Thread

Forum Index > Tech Support
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JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-28 02:06:28
March 27 2012 04:20 GMT
#1
Cooling, Airflow, and Fan Guide

Ok, we don't seem to have much along these lines available yet. First iteration probably won't be completely comprehensive, so please, PM me anything you think needs added. I'm not a cooling expert, I'm hoping we can make this a collaborative thing that's a great resource.

Cooling Glossary
+ Show Spoiler +

Since PC cooling uses it's own terms, and uses some terms in weird ways, here's some of the stuff you might need to know. This list is by no means comprehensive, it's just to simplify some of the terms you're likely to see here. If you feel something needs added, please PM me.

Air Cooling: Any cooling using airflow from fans.

Ambient temperature: The overall temperature within the room your computer is in. This can have a huge effect on temperature, since you can't cool below the temperature within the environment with normal cooling solutions. (Peltiers, liquid nitrogen, and dry ice are NOT normal.)

Burn-in/Break-in: Essentially, a lot of thermal paste formulas require a certain number of thermal cycles (going to full load and back) to reach maximum efficiency. Either expect temps to drop a bit over time, or use a CPU stress test to bring it up and down over and over for a while.

CFM: Cubic Feet/Minute. Used to determine how much air a fan moves.

Closed loop: A factory sealed liquid cooling system, such as the Corsair H60. Most of these are pretty bad.

Heatsink: Roughly, an assembly of heat-conducting metal rods, with fins to guide airflow.

Liquid cooling: Cooling by using a pump to push liquid (water or non-conductive propylene glycol are common) through a water block and radiator.

Negative pressure: In PC cases, refers to airflow with more air actively exhausted than taken in.

Passive Cooling: Cooling using only heatsinks, with no fans.

Peltier: Nifty little refrigeration type coolers. Kinda outside the purview of this thread.

Positive Pressure: In PC cases, refers to a case with more air actively taken in than exhausted.

Radiator/Rad: A radiator, works like the one in a car (some people actually use small car radiators) used for liquid cooling.

RPM: Revolutions per minute. High RPM tends to equate to higher noise, and more airflow.

TIM/Thermal Paste: Thermal Interface Material. A fun ceramic or metal colloid type stuff used in a (very) thin layer between heatsinks and hot components to keep pesky air molecules from hurting thermal conductivity.

Water Block: A piece of material (generally metal) with high thermal conductivity, with channels through the inside for coolants to flow through, mounted to CPU, GPU, VRMs, RAM, or other heat generating components.


Airflow Basics
+ Show Spoiler +

"Standard" PC case airflow will traditionally intake at the front, and exhaust out the back. I'm not entirely sure why this is, although I do remember in the old beige box days, you'd usually only see one fan, exhausting out the back near the CPU, so I'd guess it was for minimal noise with airflow to the hottest part of the PC, without directing hot air at the various drives in the front.

These days, you'll frequently see "gamer" style cases, which is a fancy term for "we found a way to distract cats AND move more hot air than Congress, without functionally cooling anything!" If I haven't made myself clear, a lot of these are actually nothing special, but they have lots of cool lights, and they DO at least move enough air for most people's use, so the main reasons not to get one would be aesthetics, price, or features.

Ok, now, here's some things to consider. First of all: heat rises. No shit, right? Well, if you think about this, most graphics cards just dump hot air into the case, (although some don't), and with standard ATX mounting, this means your heat will, if otherwise left well enough alone, go straight up towards your CPU cooler. Obviously, the warmer the air is already, the less heat it can pick up from the CPU cooler, so this does affect cooling to some degree.

Ideally (for heat alone) you'd want an External Exhaust, or "blower" style cooler on your GPU. These do exactly what it sounds like, they intake air inside the case, guide it through a heatsink, and blow it through an external exhaust. In practice, these have a nasty tendency to be loud as all hell. Little miniature leafblowers on crack. That said, it can help your overall system temps, as well as serving as a nifty little foot warmer during the winter.

Ok, so, let's consider some of the things that we see in cases, and how they affect cooling, since this is supposed to be the basics.

Negative pressure cooling: The advantage to negative pressure (using the "more exhaust than intake" definition) is that it directs the airflow a bit more specifically. The exhaust fans will pull the air towards themselves, which means that no matter what kind of obstacles in the form of cables, drive bays, dead bugs, and empty Dorito's bags you might have, the air will still move towards the places it exhausts. Of course, it does hurt overall airflow a bit, but then, a tornado moves a TON of air, and it's not good for consumer electronics, right?

Positive pressure cooling: Well, frankly, this is kind of uncommon. It's good for... well, in some cases, it limits the ability of dust to build up, and if the case is pretty open, it lets air exhaust really easily. That said, it tends to be a straight up gimmick, although it DOES have uses for air-cooling SLI/CFX external exhaust cards. It also can help maximize air getting to a heatsink, but it's kind of dependent on airflow.

Isolation: generally, the main thing you'll hear of being isolated is the PSU, whether it's completely isolated, or just flipped so it intakes through the bottom/side of the case, isolation is just some means of physically separating airflow for different components. This has the distinct advantage of preventing things like one component's intake stealing air another component needs, or a component dumping heat through a heatsink, although it can sometimes lead to extra noise, as you have air moving through more holes in the case.

Top exhaust: Almost always a partial gimmick, as most people mount CPU coolers to exhaust or intake through the back, so they aren't yanking hot air off their GPU's. Notable exceptions would be certain Silverstone cases, including the RV02/03 which have the entire motherboard tray rotated 90 degrees, intake through the bottom, and exhaust out the top. These also happen to be amazing cases.
Side intake: Also frequently a gimmick, although they can be handy for SLI cooling with blowers, as you frequently don't get much airflow in between multiple GPU's.


Thermal Paste or Thermal Waste?
+ Show Spoiler +

Thermal paste has been argued to death by thousands of users across tons of boards, benchmarked, reviewed, and tested to death. The general consensus here is that casual overclockers don't need to worry about it much, as the gains are relatively minimal, and frequently the extra money is better spent on improving the CPU cooler you buy instead.

Even application has been researched, studied, and screamed about millions of times. What's better? One line? Two lines? Spread it yourself, or use pressure from applying the heatsink? What's the best way to remove it? Well, if you want to find tons of technical details, google is your friend, I'm just going to stick with some basics, and give you a couple of links.

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/What-is-the-Best-Way-to-Apply-Thermal-Compound/1303 Tested application of thermal paste. Link at the bottom of the last page to application for direct touch heatpipes. Note, this is less than perfect testing, the main thing that should be taken from it is that less is more in thermal paste.

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Thermal-Compound-Roundup-October-2011/1396/5 Thermal paste roundup. Not comprehensive, but gives you the idea.

Note that we're looking at 10 degrees Celcius at the MOST. Yes, that can be a lot in CPU's, but application matters considerably more than what you apply. You can buy the best, if you overdo it, just like a stripper overdoing cheap perfume, the results are less enticing than they should be. Your best bet, if you want to buy something better than the basic stuff that comes pre-applied on your cooler (almost every cooler has this) is to buy something from the middle of the pack on performance, and cheap price, and spend the rest of that budget into a better CPU cooler.

More importantly, you should consider whether the paste is conductive or capacitive. Both of these can do serious damage to your hardware if they get on a PCB, so non-conductive is ideal for most users.

To remove thermal paste, you can either buy a fancy little cleaner kit, or invest in a bottle of 80-90% Isopropyl rubbing alcohol and a pack of coffee filters. Try to avoid things like Q-tips, cotton balls, or kleenex, as they can leave shit behind. Avoid water, due to the whole conducting electricity thing, and avoid strong solvents because we like our motherboard the way we bought it.

Note: In case you're wondering, and yes, we've seen this before: No, thermal "paste" does NOT imply you can use it to glue a heatsink on. You STILL NEED TO USE THE MOUNTING HARDWARE PROVIDED WITH YOUR CPU COOLER OR WATER BLOCK.

Arctic silver TIM guide (Courtesy TheToast)
AMD version.

Also, some CPU coolers come with thermal pads pre-applied, rather than proper thermal paste. Thermal pads can contain parrafin (wax) that makes it harder to clean your CPU properly later. If this is the case, you SHOULD remove it and use other thermal paste.



Air vs Liquid
+ Show Spoiler +

Ok, this argument has been done to death. Casual overclockers do NOT need liquid cooling. If you want it, great, but you don't need it. Simple.

Now if you decide you want liquid, great. I'm happy for you. Here's some things to consider though. First off, most closed-loop liquid coolers are somewhere in the realm of absolute shit, especially when you factor in price. They have all the drawbacks of liquid (can't passive cool in case of component failure, in some cases they have nasty conductive liquids that can leak, cheap pumps are loud as all hell...) and despite all this potential nastiness, they tend to cost as much or more than air coolers with similar performance.

The one thing that can be said for a closed-loop liquid cooler is that it's good if your PC moves around a lot, as a lot of larger heatsinks have the potential to do some serious damage to your motherboard if they get bumped around too much. Even if they don't break anything, bouncing around can cause pins to lose contact on recent Intel chips, which can cause hardware issues (including losing track of memory channels, or failing to boot entirely.)

If you decide to go for a full blown custom loop, the main thing that can be said is this: DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Get good stuff, get advice, and don't get the advice from the people selling you the stuff, because they might just be on comission.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1629/6/ A lot of coolers tested, including some closed-loop liquid and some air. Most of these will be fine for the casual overclocker, so compare price to performance and pick what you like.


Cases
+ Show Spoiler +

Some case cooling benchies.
By no means a comprehensive list of cases, just a start. If you have a preferred case, feel free to bring it up, it'll be added.


Memory Cooling
This doesn't need a spoiler. Don't make me laugh. You don't need cooling on your RAM. It's an aesthetic thing. If you're reading this, you're NOT in the 0.00001% who have an actual use for memory cooling, or if you are, you know this statement doesn't apply to you, but that it's otherwise correct.

Resources
Aside from the small stuff linked up through the component sections, here's a few handy links.

EVGA Noob Water Cooling Guide Watercooling for Noobs. Includes some videos and tips on water cooling.

http://www.frozencpu.com A good resource for buying liquid cooling parts, as well as some case modding options.

SPCR A good place to get information on passive cooling, quiet fans, and quiet cases, along with acoustics related mods.

HWMonitor DL Hardwaremonitor download. Good program for keeping track of temps. Note, this software is capable of using sensors most motherboards don't have, so some of your readings MIGHT not make much sense.

Frosty Tech (Courtesy FragKrag) Good centralized location for articles and reviews related to PC cooling.

More thermal paste benchies.
And more TIM. (Thanks Wabbit)
Illest.
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada133 Posts
March 27 2012 04:59 GMT
#2
would a cpu liquid cooler or any type of cooling be useful for non overclockers but intense gaming?
I ♥ KPop.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 27 2012 05:01 GMT
#3
On March 27 2012 13:59 Illest. wrote:
would a cpu liquid cooler or any type of cooling be useful for non overclockers but intense gaming?


Only if your ambient temperatures are terrible, and even then, just an aftermarket air cooler should be enough for most use.

FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11554 Posts
March 27 2012 05:03 GMT
#4
good site for cooling

http://frostytech.com/
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
Illest.
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada133 Posts
March 27 2012 05:04 GMT
#5
On March 27 2012 14:01 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 13:59 Illest. wrote:
would a cpu liquid cooler or any type of cooling be useful for non overclockers but intense gaming?


Only if your ambient temperatures are terrible, and even then, just an aftermarket air cooler should be enough for most use.



Oh I see, most of the time its really hot in my room during winter due to the heater. Summer time it varies
I ♥ KPop.
fatfail
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States386 Posts
March 27 2012 05:05 GMT
#6
Are pumps usually noisy? I'm considering getting liquid cooling just for fun diy project, bragging rights, and aesthetic reasons, but I want a quiet computer as well.
Kong fan... <3 Stork <3 Jangbi <3 Yellow <3 Fantasy
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 05:14:11
March 27 2012 05:12 GMT
#7
On March 27 2012 14:04 Illest. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 14:01 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 13:59 Illest. wrote:
would a cpu liquid cooler or any type of cooling be useful for non overclockers but intense gaming?


Only if your ambient temperatures are terrible, and even then, just an aftermarket air cooler should be enough for most use.



Oh I see, most of the time its really hot in my room during winter due to the heater. Summer time it varies


Define "really hot".

On March 27 2012 14:05 fatfail wrote:
Are pumps usually noisy? I'm considering getting liquid cooling just for fun diy project, bragging rights, and aesthetic reasons, but I want a quiet computer as well.


Depends on the pump, just like fans vary from insane to nearly silent. It has moving parts, so some noise is a given. You'd have to look up manufacturers specs, or find reviews of an individual pump.
Illest.
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada133 Posts
March 27 2012 05:14 GMT
#8
On March 27 2012 14:12 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 14:04 Illest. wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:01 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 13:59 Illest. wrote:
would a cpu liquid cooler or any type of cooling be useful for non overclockers but intense gaming?


Only if your ambient temperatures are terrible, and even then, just an aftermarket air cooler should be enough for most use.



Oh I see, most of the time its really hot in my room during winter due to the heater. Summer time it varies


Define "really hot".


ummm, I tend to sweat, so much heat from gaming mixed with the heat from heater also sometimes my pc/xbox360 is on at the same time.
my room is quite small.
I ♥ KPop.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 05:17:46
March 27 2012 05:16 GMT
#9
On March 27 2012 14:14 Illest. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 14:12 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:04 Illest. wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:01 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 13:59 Illest. wrote:
would a cpu liquid cooler or any type of cooling be useful for non overclockers but intense gaming?


Only if your ambient temperatures are terrible, and even then, just an aftermarket air cooler should be enough for most use.



Oh I see, most of the time its really hot in my room during winter due to the heater. Summer time it varies


Define "really hot".


ummm, I tend to sweat, so much heat from gaming mixed with the heat from heater also sometimes my pc/xbox360 is on at the same time.
my room is quite small.


Well, offer your PC a gatorade every now and then so it doesn't get heatstroke, and call it a day. Either that or give useful information to get a useful answer.

Yes, I am a dick. I've heard it before. But when I say "define 'really hot'.", I mean give me a number, not an anecdote full of subjective information.
Doko
Profile Joined May 2010
Argentina1737 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 05:21:10
March 27 2012 05:18 GMT
#10
Just a reminder for everyone to make sure you have some kind of "stop/warning on cpu fan error" set to enabled in your Bios. Specially if you are using the default fan that came with your boxed processor, shit can go seriously wrong if it stops. There's not a whole lot of tolerance if the active portion (the fan) of the heatsink decides to randomly stop.

Also remember to clean your CPU/GPU heatsink at least every 6 months. And specially during the summer
Illest.
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada133 Posts
March 27 2012 05:25 GMT
#11
On March 27 2012 14:16 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 14:14 Illest. wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:12 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:04 Illest. wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:01 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 13:59 Illest. wrote:
would a cpu liquid cooler or any type of cooling be useful for non overclockers but intense gaming?


Only if your ambient temperatures are terrible, and even then, just an aftermarket air cooler should be enough for most use.



Oh I see, most of the time its really hot in my room during winter due to the heater. Summer time it varies


Define "really hot".


ummm, I tend to sweat, so much heat from gaming mixed with the heat from heater also sometimes my pc/xbox360 is on at the same time.
my room is quite small.


Well, offer your PC a gatorade every now and then so it doesn't get heatstroke, and call it a day. Either that or give useful information to get a useful answer.

Yes, I am a dick. I've heard it before. But when I say "define 'really hot'.", I mean give me a number, not an anecdote full of subjective information.


Wouldn't know how to get exact numbers of temperatures....
I ♥ KPop.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 27 2012 05:32 GMT
#12
On March 27 2012 14:25 Illest. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 14:16 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:14 Illest. wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:12 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:04 Illest. wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:01 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 13:59 Illest. wrote:
would a cpu liquid cooler or any type of cooling be useful for non overclockers but intense gaming?


Only if your ambient temperatures are terrible, and even then, just an aftermarket air cooler should be enough for most use.



Oh I see, most of the time its really hot in my room during winter due to the heater. Summer time it varies


Define "really hot".


ummm, I tend to sweat, so much heat from gaming mixed with the heat from heater also sometimes my pc/xbox360 is on at the same time.
my room is quite small.


Well, offer your PC a gatorade every now and then so it doesn't get heatstroke, and call it a day. Either that or give useful information to get a useful answer.

Yes, I am a dick. I've heard it before. But when I say "define 'really hot'.", I mean give me a number, not an anecdote full of subjective information.


Wouldn't know how to get exact numbers of temperatures....


Most people use a thermometer. Make sure that it's facing away from heat sources, including lights.

If your ambient temp is below about 35C (I expect this is the case), you SHOULDN'T need to worry about it. If you're really worried about it, DL Hardwaremonitor, from the link in the OP, and use something like Prime95 to load your CPU, see what temps get to. Then, it depends on your CPU as to whether the temps are acceptable.
Infernal_dream
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2359 Posts
March 27 2012 05:32 GMT
#13
On March 27 2012 14:25 Illest. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 14:16 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:14 Illest. wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:12 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:04 Illest. wrote:
On March 27 2012 14:01 JingleHell wrote:
On March 27 2012 13:59 Illest. wrote:
would a cpu liquid cooler or any type of cooling be useful for non overclockers but intense gaming?


Only if your ambient temperatures are terrible, and even then, just an aftermarket air cooler should be enough for most use.



Oh I see, most of the time its really hot in my room during winter due to the heater. Summer time it varies


Define "really hot".


ummm, I tend to sweat, so much heat from gaming mixed with the heat from heater also sometimes my pc/xbox360 is on at the same time.
my room is quite small.


Well, offer your PC a gatorade every now and then so it doesn't get heatstroke, and call it a day. Either that or give useful information to get a useful answer.

Yes, I am a dick. I've heard it before. But when I say "define 'really hot'.", I mean give me a number, not an anecdote full of subjective information.


Wouldn't know how to get exact numbers of temperatures....


look at what your heater is set to and add a few degrees? Like lets use right now for an example. It's in the 60's outside and I have all my windows open. But I also have three computers on and my xbox in my room, so i'd say around 70'ish in my room. He's not looking for an exact number but within 4 or 5 degrees. Huge difference between you saying 70 degrees in your room as ambient and 90.
Illest.
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada133 Posts
March 27 2012 05:48 GMT
#14
im running sc2 and i get close to 57-60 Celsius
I ♥ KPop.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 05:51:34
March 27 2012 05:51 GMT
#15
On March 27 2012 14:48 Illest. wrote:
im running sc2 and i get close to 57-60 Celsius


That's not a stress test, and the number means nothing without knowing what type of CPU you're using. You can check with CPU-Z or speccy if you don't know.

Also, CPU case temp and core temps are totally different animals. Need core temps in this case.
Illest.
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada133 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 06:10:52
March 27 2012 06:07 GMT
#16
my current specs:
Gigabyte GA-880GM-UD2H
AMD Phenom™ II X4 955 Black Edition 3.2GHz w/ 8MB Cache(AMD3)
Patriot Viper Xtreme Series, Division Viper 2 Edition DDR3 4GB (2 x 2GB) PC3-12800
HyperX Genesis 4GB DDR3-1600MHz CL9 Dual Channel Kit (2 x 2GB) w/ Intel XMP
EVGA Geforce 1GB GTX 560 Ti DS
OCZ StealthXSteam 600W
500 GB Seagate ST350032AS SATA-2 32 MB cache
I ♥ KPop.
ulan-bat
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
China403 Posts
March 27 2012 06:58 GMT
#17
On March 27 2012 14:05 fatfail wrote:
Are pumps usually noisy? I'm considering getting liquid cooling just for fun diy project, bragging rights, and aesthetic reasons, but I want a quiet computer as well.

If it's a diy project you can use submersible aquarium pumps and cancel vibrations one way or another and you're good to go.
"Short games, shorts, summer weather, those things bring the heat!" - EG.iNcontroL
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1479 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 08:09:46
March 27 2012 07:50 GMT
#18
I think you forgot that liquid cooling is also a way to keep your system quiet. At least thats my reason to use it.

Im not sure i agree with your statement about the 10 Celcius drop as a max in CPUs. I know its far more in GPUs, as i changed my old ati 4850 cooling twice, first to aftermarket cooler, and i got a 45 C drop (not kidding, anyone who had a 4850 with stock cooler knows how bad it was). and then i got a 13 C drop when i moved to liquid.

My Q6600 on stock runs on a kandalf LCS case (modified thermaltake big water kit http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/tt_kandalf/)
I get 21 C on idle and 31 on Load.
I dont know how hot runs q6600 on air, but im quite sure its a bit higher :D.
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
Thryd
Profile Joined March 2012
86 Posts
March 27 2012 08:06 GMT
#19
Hi, first post, yay=]

Would you be willing to put information for cooling laptops? I'm sure some people on tl are using laptops as their primary computer, and might be interested in more information.

Just a suggestion, thanks=]
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 09:01:15
March 27 2012 08:53 GMT
#20
On March 27 2012 17:06 Thryd wrote:
Hi, first post, yay=]

Would you be willing to put information for cooling laptops? I'm sure some people on tl are using laptops as their primary computer, and might be interested in more information.

Just a suggestion, thanks=]

http://forum.notebookreview.com/dell-xps-studio-xps/268081-dell-xps-m1330-nvidia-geforce-8400m-gs-copper-mod.html
if you have the balls just dont use thermal paste like artic silver 5 or w.e which will short out your crap. Something like IC diamond 7/AC MX-4 /Tuniq TX-4/Shin-Etsu X23-7762

Outside of just cleaning the dammed thing not too much you can do adding "cooling pads" rarely help outside of having a good surface for the laptop to sit and get okay air flow, seeing as not all laptops intake air in the same position the fan on the cooling pad can at times be quite useless esp if it's stupid and sucks air away instead of blows air into the intake. Cleaning, removing the battery when you don't need it playing on a clean and flat surface not like cloth or carpet that can restrict air flow is pretty much the only things you can do.
On March 27 2012 16:50 iloveav wrote:
I think you forgot that liquid cooling is also a way to keep your system quiet. At least thats my reason to use it.

Im not sure i agree with your statement about the 10 Celcius drop as a max in CPUs. I know its far more in GPUs, as i changed my old ati 4850 cooling twice, first to aftermarket cooler, and i got a 45 C drop (not kidding, anyone who had a 4850 with stock cooler knows how bad it was). and then i got a 13 C drop when i moved to liquid.

My Q6600 on stock runs on a kandalf LCS case (modified thermaltake big water kit http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/tt_kandalf/)
I get 21 C on idle and 31 on Load.
I dont know how hot runs q6600 on air, but im quite sure its a bit higher :D.

Not really... liquid cooling vs big air is quite arguable, rarely is a liquid cooling set up without fans at all be it fans on case/on radiator along with the sound of pumps and viscous fluid. Esp during idle a great case, a high end psu that is either completely passive or shuts off the fan during idle loads, high quality fans and aftermarket gpu/gpu coolers can be nearly as effective at keeping a system cool and relatively quiet. And spending more on things like that is 50/50 you would normally get a nice case to fit water cooling anyways, gpu. motherboard and cpu blocks are expensive so are radiators etc and you need new gpu blocks pretty much always and sometimes cpu blocks as well. Water cooling just helps mitigate the speed at which temperate changes better then air, and chilled water cooling does a better job in cooling; most cases then air. You could also just buy longer cables/extensions and put your computer across the room if you dont really want to hear it so much instead of sitting it by your feet or right next to your head like most times.
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1479 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 09:15:02
March 27 2012 09:13 GMT
#21
Ofc it has fans, but 3 fans can be a lot quieter than 1-2 from an air cooler. Im not a big fan of water cooling myself, as it takes more time and money, but the fact that i could play at night time and not wake up the entire home (due to having to get my volume high to actually hear something), is quite good for me. Hell i didnt even wake up my ex-gf (in this case i used headphones), when she was having a nap.

Im not saying liquid cooling is great, but it has its uses.

Oh and btw, in summer my ambient temps reach over 40 C quite often. I think last years max was 47 C :D.
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 27 2012 13:17 GMT
#22
On March 27 2012 16:50 iloveav wrote:
I think you forgot that liquid cooling is also a way to keep your system quiet. At least thats my reason to use it.

Im not sure i agree with your statement about the 10 Celcius drop as a max in CPUs. I know its far more in GPUs, as i changed my old ati 4850 cooling twice, first to aftermarket cooler, and i got a 45 C drop (not kidding, anyone who had a 4850 with stock cooler knows how bad it was). and then i got a 13 C drop when i moved to liquid.

My Q6600 on stock runs on a kandalf LCS case (modified thermaltake big water kit http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/tt_kandalf/)
I get 21 C on idle and 31 on Load.
I dont know how hot runs q6600 on air, but im quite sure its a bit higher :D.


Look again at which section the 10 Celcius drop was in. TIM. I was specifically talking about thermal paste and the benefits of it.

And I didn't forget that liquid can keep you quiet, I just considered it outside the purview. It CAN be quieter, but it won't be with closed loop as a rule, since GPU cooling is where it makes the biggest difference, and full custom liquid, as I stated, needs to be researched more completely before using.

If you want to write up a quick section on it, feel free, but as I've only studied it, not done it, I didn't feel qualified to say more than I did.
TheToast
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4808 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 21:52:33
March 27 2012 21:50 GMT
#23
Ahhh this is nice, great work jh. Tech support needs more of these types of resource threads

One thing though, I would disagree with your opinion on thermal paste/compound. Thermal compound is going to greatly increase the heat trasmission between the CPU and heatsink, reducing any "hot spots" where there may be an air gap between the CPU and heatsink. Given that you can pick up a tube of Artic Silver (a decent name brand) on New Egg for less than $10, there's really no reason at all not to use it.

I personally would not run a PC without thermal paste/compound even when not overclocking, you are increasing the risk of damage to your CPU especially if you live in a warm climate or the PC is in a warm place such as next to an air vent. Given that the stuff is so cheap, there's really no downside to using it.

As for how to apply it, again I disagree. I've heard all kinds of crazy methods, including putting a big glob on the middle of the CPU and pressing the heatsink into it. (I had a co-worker who argued that this reduced "air bubbles" and was therefore the most effective).

However, I'm inclined to disregard the Hardware Secrets website test for two reasons: first in their testing method they did not mention anything about allowing for a break in period. This is key, as after some time the compound changes consistancy and actually becomes more effective; Artic Silver does note this in their documentation. The break in period of the Artic Silver Céramique they used is rated as around 25 hours. Using so much less thermal compound will actually result in a lower break in period, and that could explain their results. Second, every heatsink is different, some have well machined smooth surfaces; others may not. So it's hard to make any sort of blanket statements about the effectivity of a specific setup.

Artic Silver actually has their own list of recommendations of which method of application to use for each different type of Intel CPUs. As you can see, for the most part a vertical line or full surface spread is reccommended. There are links on that page to some of Artic Silver's other documentation which has some other interesting information as well, including info on the break in period. However I would point to this list as the best means for applying thermal compound.

For myself, I usually default to a full, very thin, surface spread in most situations. A post it note is the perfect size and works well to spread the stuff across the CPU, though an old credit or gift card would be ideal. One thing I will agree with the Hardware Secrets thread on, less is better, no matter which method you use.

Overall, thermal compound does help if you apply it correctly; and since most of it is so cheap there's no reason not to.
I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid.
Wabbit
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1028 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-28 14:52:12
March 27 2012 22:15 GMT
#24
@TheToast

I'm pretty sure JH meant that it doesn't matter much what TIM is used for most people as the difference in temps is going to be minimal as long as it's applied properly - not that no TIM should be used, lol. Yeah there are some trashy TIM's that if you replaced with something like PK-1 or MX-4 you'd maybe get ~5*C or so better temps under load, but usually it'll be less than that, especially when there isn't a ton of heat to dissipate in the first place.

I also disregard everything HardwareSecrets does regarding cooling.

Probably the best TIM review is this:
http://skinneelabs.com/2011-thermal-paste-review-comparison/

Also X-Bit's roundup that includes TIM's used on retail products: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/thermal-interface-roundup-1_12.html#sect0

Also nobody should be buying Arctic Silver 5 unless it's $5 for a tube and everything else costs twice as much (almost never the case, other good stuff is pretty inexpensive too) and you need paste and don't care about spending the $5 more for ~3-4 degrees in the right circumstances.
The answers to most of your Tech Support questions are in the OP. That's why you're not getting a reply. It's been answered before. Read the OP.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 27 2012 22:16 GMT
#25
Added the Arctic Silver guide to OP. I didn't actually suggest NOT using thermal paste, I suggested using the pre-applied stuff for most people. Since you agree that not overdoing it is vastly important, then hopefully you understand why I'd suggest people leave the particularly thin layer that tends to be pre-applied.

After all, if they buy the best, and then glop it on, it's wasted money. I don't usually suggest a pre-spread for application myself, just because there's a bit more technique to it than most people will want to spend the time on, assuming you do it right, and if you do it wrong, you end up with air bubbles.

TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
March 27 2012 23:04 GMT
#26
On March 27 2012 16:50 iloveav wrote:
I think you forgot that liquid cooling is also a way to keep your system quiet. At least thats my reason to use it.

Im not sure i agree with your statement about the 10 Celcius drop as a max in CPUs. I know its far more in GPUs, as i changed my old ati 4850 cooling twice, first to aftermarket cooler, and i got a 45 C drop (not kidding, anyone who had a 4850 with stock cooler knows how bad it was). and then i got a 13 C drop when i moved to liquid.

My Q6600 on stock runs on a kandalf LCS case (modified thermaltake big water kit http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/tt_kandalf/)
I get 21 C on idle and 31 on Load.
I dont know how hot runs q6600 on air, but im quite sure its a bit higher :D.

Fans can be just as quiet if not more quiet than liquid, especially if you dont run them at 100% all of the time by using fan controllers.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 23:46:32
March 27 2012 23:24 GMT
#27
On March 28 2012 08:04 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 16:50 iloveav wrote:
I think you forgot that liquid cooling is also a way to keep your system quiet. At least thats my reason to use it.

Im not sure i agree with your statement about the 10 Celcius drop as a max in CPUs. I know its far more in GPUs, as i changed my old ati 4850 cooling twice, first to aftermarket cooler, and i got a 45 C drop (not kidding, anyone who had a 4850 with stock cooler knows how bad it was). and then i got a 13 C drop when i moved to liquid.

My Q6600 on stock runs on a kandalf LCS case (modified thermaltake big water kit http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/tt_kandalf/)
I get 21 C on idle and 31 on Load.
I dont know how hot runs q6600 on air, but im quite sure its a bit higher :D.

Fans can be just as quiet if not more quiet than liquid, especially if you dont run them at 100% all of the time by using fan controllers.


Yep. And anyways, GPU coolers tend to be the loudest fans in the system most of the time, and a large enough loop for CPU and GPU, or dual loops, costs a small fortune. Even worse if you're running SLI/CFX.

High end liquid can be more efficient, but it's only similar or slightly better if it's not high end.

Added Wabbit's links to OP. Keep the resources coming, gents.
TheToast
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4808 Posts
March 28 2012 00:09 GMT
#28
On March 28 2012 07:16 JingleHell wrote:
Added the Arctic Silver guide to OP. I didn't actually suggest NOT using thermal paste, I suggested using the pre-applied stuff for most people. Since you agree that not overdoing it is vastly important, then hopefully you understand why I'd suggest people leave the particularly thin layer that tends to be pre-applied.

After all, if they buy the best, and then glop it on, it's wasted money. I don't usually suggest a pre-spread for application myself, just because there's a bit more technique to it than most people will want to spend the time on, assuming you do it right, and if you do it wrong, you end up with air bubbles.



Ahh, okay I misunderstood then.

When you say leave the pre-applied stuff, are you talking about the thermal pads that come installed by default on most pre-built systems? Just as a note, the artic silver documentation actually recommends removing those even before using the PC, as they claim most have a paraffin wax base that, once it melts, gets into the microscopic pores in the metal of the heatsink and CPU and can never be fully removed. Now, granted, they are trying to sell their thermal compound above all else; so you can take that advice with whatever emphasis you like.

Also you should probably link Artic Silver's guide to applying thermal compound for AMD's as it's quite different than their recommendations for Intels: http://www.arcticsilver.com/amd_application_method.html#

These are their recommendations for applying thermal compound to heatsinks with pipes or ridges: http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/hp/hphs_method.pdf (.pdf file)



Also might want to add "Break in Period" to the glossary, this is how Artic Silver's instructions explain it:

Break-In Period Explained:
Due to the unique carrier fluid used and the shapes and sizes of the thermally
conductive particles in Arctic Silver's thermal compounds it will take multiple
thermal cycles to achieve maximum particle to particle thermal conduction and
for the heatsink to metal cap interface to reach maximum conductivity. (This
period will be longer in a system without a fan on the heatsink.) On systems
measuring actual internal core temperatures via the CPU's internal diode, the
measured temperature will often drop slightly to significantly over this "break-in"
period. This break-in will occur during the normal use of the computer as long as
the computer is turned off from time to time and the interface is allowed to cool.


Also from the same instructions, this is their list of the break-in time ratings for their various products
+ Show Spoiler +
Break-In Period by Thermal Compound:
Arctic Silver 5:
Break-in period: 200 hours (Break-in period will occur during normal use.)
Temps will drop several degrees over the break-in period measured with a thermal
diode in the hottest part of the CPU core.

Céramique:
Break-in period: 25 hours (Break-in period will occur during normal use.)
Temps will drop several degrees over the break-in period measured with a thermal
diode in the hottest part of the CPU core.

Arctic Alumina:
Break-in period: 36 hours (Break-in period will occur during normal use.)
Temps will drop several degrees over the break-in period measured with a thermal
diode in the hottest part of the CPU core.

Matrix:
Break-in period: 300 hours (Break-in period will occur during normal use.)
Temps will drop several degrees over the break-in period measured with a thermal
diode in the hottest part of the CPU core.


For what it's worth, I think you should unlink that Hardware Secrets article, it's just plain wrong and has a lot of mis-information.
I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 28 2012 00:21 GMT
#29
Eh, I added a caveat, since it does have some useful info. Also added the AMD TIM link, and the thermal pad advice. I had utterly forgotten that detail.
TheToast
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4808 Posts
March 28 2012 01:35 GMT
#30
On March 28 2012 09:21 JingleHell wrote:
Eh, I added a caveat, since it does have some useful info. Also added the AMD TIM link, and the thermal pad advice. I had utterly forgotten that detail.


Well it's up to you obviously.

I'd actually forgotten about that thermal pad thing too, I do vaguely recall hearing that somewhere before; but I don't think I've ever seen a trusted source with that info before.
I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid.
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