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On November 23 2011 09:58 Avarice wrote:+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On November 23 2011 05:54 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 05:27 Avarice wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This is a great thread. I've tried to glean as much as I can from the OP and since page 740, though I just feel like I need to ask the questions for myself so here goes.
Current setup:
cpu: Intel® Core™2 Duo CPU E6750 @ 2.66GHz
ram: 2g of whatever(I don't know/can't find the specifics)
mainboard: Gigabyte P35-DS3L
gpu: GeForce 8800 GTS 640mb
hd: Barracuda 7200.10 SATA 3.0Gb/s 500-GB
monitor:DELL E228WFP, 22.0"
case: Antec 300
I've had this rig since middlish 2007, and I've been very happy with it. It even runs Skyrim on lowish settings quite well. Nothing about this pc has ever bothered me too much, but it's just getting too dated. A lot of new games have my specs as their minimum, lol.
What is your budget?
~$1000
If there's any place I'd splurge a little, it'd be cpu. Video cards are very modular, and upgrading the cpu seems to always necessitate a new mainboard, which drives me to want a new case, which- Hell I'm already replacing most of my stuff now.
What is your resolution?
1680 x 1050 is what I use now, though I really don't know what the standard is these days with 1080p monitors and all that.
What are you using it for?
Pretty much exclusively gaming. I want my pc to run games well for as long as possible. This prioritizes stability, temperature, and uniformity as far as performance limits. (though as I mentioned before if the cpu is a little bit above the rest that's fine)
What is your upgrade cycle?
Lonnng. Over 4 years for this last one, and only upgrading now because I'll be under minimum specs for new games. Obviously there are no crystal balls to consult regarding future game reqs, but if there's some reason that I should be waiting for a new tier of cpu or something that's coming in the next year, let me know.
When do you plan on building it?
I plan to take advantage of the coming weekend's deals, assuming it is an otherwise opportune time to overhaul my system. This rig does run current games (witcher 2, skyrim, deus ex) without a ton of difficulty on low settings, so I can -probably- wait a few more months if something big is around the bend. If not, now is probably the best time.
Do you plan on overclocking?
Probably not. My hardware knowhow is very low, (in absolute terms) and I don't like the idea of compromising long-run stability unless I am very aware of the benefits.
Do you need an Operating System?
No.
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire?
No. I have a shitty little laptop for 'other monitor' purposes so I only need one card.
Where are you buying your parts from?
I need at least one part from Newegg but otherwise any online reputable source is fine. I'm in the U.S.
Other notes:
*My case and my monitor are both damaged, and will need to be replaced. I have moved several times in the last 4 years, including 1500 mile car trips, which took their toll. The same case or an iterative step-up from it would probably be fine, but I really don't know much of what's happened in that area since 2007.
*I don't need any other peripherals, though my speakers (Logitech X-230) are probably pretty 'old' at this point so maybe they could use an upgrade.
*I don't think I will need a SSD. Non-performance-related loading times are not really a giant concern for me, and their downsides of long term instability and cost seem too high atm. I'm open to arguments against that position.
Thanks for your time. Ivybridge (Intel's 3rd Generation Core processors) are scheduled for March / April of next year. AMD's Radeon HD7000 series and Nvidia's GTX 600 series will also be coming in the first half of next year as well and the expectations for these are very high since we're going from 40nm to 28nm. It's up to you whether you want to wait or not. If you're looking to purchase now, you're looking at something along these lines - core i5 2500 or 2400 or any other non-K suffix core i5 - some h61 or h67 motherboard - GTX 560 Ti or Radeon HD6950 1GB or maybe even a Radeon HD6970 or GTX 570 if you have plans to upgrade monitor - 2x4gb 1333MHz cas9 DDR3 This would be very similar in terms of pricing to what you picked up four years ago. And before you ask. No, an i7 is not worth it for gaming since hardly any games even make use of four threads, yet alone eight and this is unlikely to change anytime soon. So don't even think about splurging for it. You probably remember a similar situation four years ago when you decided on your E6750 instead of a Q6600. Regardless of when you are purchasing your new configuration, you should be on the look out for a good case and maybe a new monitor during the Black Friday and Cyber Monday sales. CrossfireX and SLI isn't there for more monitor support, it's there to improve performance by up to 100%. This is sort of necessary if you are interested in playing every game on max settings or doing Eyefinity / Surround (gaming across multiple monitors). I'll look into the Ivybridge and GTX600 a bit more on my own time, thanks for mentioning them. I might need some more specific info on certain mainboards when the black friday deals start actually showing up. Discussion on them is always so vague, then I make a nominal choice and everyone suddenly has a reason why it is inferior to another. I am very bad at mainboards =[ To ask a follow up if it's easy to answer, what should I be looking for in a monitor nowadays? Will the monitor choice have a tangible effect on performance of the other hardware? That is to say, would a 1080p monitor slow down my framerate? What brands are still dependable? re: SLI- My implication there was that I don't intend to do any multi-monitor gaming. The advice that I got about SLI during my previous upgrade cycle basically amounted to "outside of multi-monitor stuff, SLI cost/benefit is quite low unless you value the difference between 56 and 58 fps." Admittedly that might no longer be true of today's games.
Black Friday deals come and go really fast so unless you do a lot of research and become knowledgeable yourself regarding the current line of motherboards or make a blind purchase, the good sales will sell out before you get an adequate answer on the forums.
Besides pricing and connectivity, there's not much to look for in low-end TN monitors these days since they're all practically the same. Using a 1080p monitor instead of your current 1680x1050 would result in lower FPS since it's a higher resolution. If you want one of the better monitors, the Dell Ultrasharp U2312M and U2412M are very good options for overall usage.
multi-GPU scaling is much better these days but it still depends on drivers so improvements can be anywhere from 0% to 100%. I still don't recommend it though unless you really want to max every game out there.
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To ask a follow up if it's easy to answer, what should I be looking for in a monitor nowadays? Will the monitor choice have a tangible effect on performance of the other hardware? That is to say, would a 1080p monitor slow down my framerate? What brands are still dependable?
Higher resolutions will decrease your frame rate because the GPU needs to push more pixels. The benefit you get is more real estate. You can run a lower resolution on a 1080P monitor to increase performance but it generally looks awful.
TN panel monitors:
Absolutely nothing. Go to a store and buy what you think looks good and has a decent warranty service. Despite what Shikyo says, the rated response time means absolutely nothing and LED backlighting is only a concern if you want to decrease power usage. Heck, a lot of monitors have dodgy PWM so a rare number of people can see the LED backlight flickering when the monitor is not at full brightness.
Asus and Samsung I believe have pretty decent warranty services. Acer has a pretty draconic dead pixel policy.
VA panel monitors:
Don't bother unless you are willing to pay a lot. I'm a huge fan of them but very few of them are good for gaming.
IPS panel monitors:
Current generation Dell Ultrasharp or HP ZR. Generally excellent responsiveness, good features, excellent warranty service (Dell will even cross-ship monitors if you are nice enough on the phone).
Edit: Beaten.
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Cool. I'll try to look up some info/reviews on the more popular h6x boards to try to get a bead on it, and learn whatever the hell all those monitor buzzwords mean because I have no idea 8]
Until then, thanks for the advice skyr/wom, you guys are awesome for helping strangers make better choices on this stuff.
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A couple comments on the above responses (which you should take heed of)...
Response time matters, but manufacturers' advertised specs for response time mean very little. Some monitors rated at like 12ms have a faster and better response in reality than some others rated at 5ms, and so on. IMHO input lag is more important for gaming performance than response time, but nobody lists that. Fortunately, most panels sold as computer monitors are in the mostly acceptable (or better) range for input lag, aside from a few expensive models targeted specifically at certain graphics professionals.
LED backlighting is also better for taking up less space so the monitor can be thinner, but that's not a big deal to most people either.
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I've recently got the itch to play Skyrim but my current rig is woefully inadequate (dual core Pentium 4, Geforce 7900gs) and I would really like to experience Skyrim at high settings. Any help in picking parts would be much appreciated!
What is your budget? About $1,000. Willing to go a little bit over if it's really worth it.
What is your resolution? 1280x1024. I use two 19 inch 4:3 Dell Ultrasharps.
What are you using it for? Gaming mainly, programming work secondary.
What is your upgrade cycle? 4-5 years, I rarely upgrade.
When do you plan on building it? Flexible, any time in the next 2-3 months.
Do you plan on overclocking? Nope, this thing has to last and I'm not taking any chances.
Do you need an Operating System? Nope.
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? Probably not.
Where are you buying your parts from? I'm in the USA, so Newegg and Amazon most likely.
I've got a few other questions as well:
1) I've got a hand me down PC that has an Intel Core 2 Quad core, 4gb ram (4x1gb), and a GeForce 8800GT 512mb, it's just missing a HD to be usable. I was thinking of just buying a GeForce 560 Ti to replace the 8800GT so I could play Skyrim now and then perhaps build the rest of the new rig later if prices would be more advantageous in the near future. The questions are "Is it worth buying just the GPU now and the rest later?" and "Would just upgrading the GPU be sufficient to play Skyrim? I heard Skyrim leans heavily on the CPU."
2) In picking out parts I was using the Enthusiast build listed in this article on Lifehacker as a guideline, does it look decent?
Antec Three Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - $54.99
Corsair Enthusiast Series TX750 v2 750W Power Supply - $129.99
Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD3 LGA 1155 Intel ATX Motherboard - $149.99
Intel Core i7-2600 Sandy Bridge 3.4Ghz Quad Core Processor - $299.99
G Skill 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 1600 RAM - $37.99
Intel 320 Series 80GB SATA II MLC SSD - $139.99
NVidia GeForce 560 Ti - $234.99
I was thinking of changing the CPU, dropping down to an Intel Core i5-2500 to save $100. Based on this benchmark it looks like the i5 could handle Skyrim pretty well if I'm reading this right. Also, the PSU linked above seems to be discontinued according to Newegg. As far as I can tell, this PSU is the successor to the one in the article linked above. Is that a suitable PSU?
Thanks in advance!
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Keep these items:
- Intel 320 SSD (or switch to Crucial M4, the M4 should be faster)
- G.Skill memory
Swap and get these items:
- Swap the Z68 Gigabyte motherboard for a Intel or Asrock H67/H61 motherboard. If you want to use SATA3 with your badass SSD, get a H67 motherboard. Else, just get a H61 motherboard from Intel or Asrock.
- i7 2600 for a i5 2400. You guessed right, the i7 2600 doesn't perform a whole lot better than the i5 2400 to justify the huge price difference.
- Power Supply to a 400-500W like an XFX Core 450W. You don't need 750W. What power supply depends on how beefy your GPU will be.
- Antec 300 is obsolete. If you want to stick around the $50-60 region, the Coolermaster HAF 912 is probably a better buy.
Is your resolution seriously going to stay at 1280x1024? Or are you going to buy a new monitor? This will justify how much graphical processing power you need. I'm just asking because 1280x1024 is ancient.
Edit: Mixed H61 and H67 around.
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On November 23 2011 14:19 Phyre wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I've recently got the itch to play Skyrim but my current rig is woefully inadequate (dual core Pentium 4, Geforce 7900gs) and I would really like to experience Skyrim at high settings. Any help in picking parts would be much appreciated! What is your budget? About $1,000. Willing to go a little bit over if it's really worth it. What is your resolution? 1280x1024. I use two 19 inch 4:3 Dell Ultrasharps. What are you using it for? Gaming mainly, programming work secondary. What is your upgrade cycle? 4-5 years, I rarely upgrade. When do you plan on building it? Flexible, any time in the next 2-3 months. Do you plan on overclocking? Nope, this thing has to last and I'm not taking any chances. Do you need an Operating System? Nope. Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? Probably not. Where are you buying your parts from? I'm in the USA, so Newegg and Amazon most likely. I've got a few other questions as well: 1) I've got a hand me down PC that has an Intel Core 2 Quad core, 4gb ram (4x1gb), and a GeForce 8800GT 512mb, it's just missing a HD to be usable. I was thinking of just buying a GeForce 560 Ti to replace the 8800GT so I could play Skyrim now and then perhaps build the rest of the new rig later if prices would be more advantageous in the near future. The questions are "Is it worth buying just the GPU now and the rest later?" and "Would just upgrading the GPU be sufficient to play Skyrim? I heard Skyrim leans heavily on the CPU." 2) In picking out parts I was using the Enthusiast build listed in this article on Lifehacker as a guideline, does it look decent? Antec Three Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - $54.99 Corsair Enthusiast Series TX750 v2 750W Power Supply - $129.99 Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD3 LGA 1155 Intel ATX Motherboard - $149.99 Intel Core i7-2600 Sandy Bridge 3.4Ghz Quad Core Processor - $299.99 G Skill 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 1600 RAM - $37.99 Intel 320 Series 80GB SATA II MLC SSD - $139.99 NVidia GeForce 560 Ti - $234.99 I was thinking of changing the CPU, dropping down to an Intel Core i5-2500 to save $100. Based on this benchmark it looks like the i5 could handle Skyrim pretty well if I'm reading this right. Also, the PSU linked above seems to be discontinued according to Newegg. As far as I can tell, this PSU is the successor to the one in the article linked above. Is that a suitable PSU? Thanks in advance!
If you got me a hand-me down, why don't you just try it on the system and see how it runs? A C2Q is still decent for a lot of games and a 8800GT is as well for your resolution. I'm pretty certain that Skyrim and most other games will be playable (not on ultra obviously).
The TX750v2 is the successor to the original TX750 and is better in every aspect. You should not be purchasing the original TX750. I'm not sure why you are getting such an overkill power supply when you said you aren't doing SLI. Even if you were, 750w is still overkill. A core i7 2600 uses around 100w while a core i5 2500 uses around 60w and a GTX 560 Ti uses around 160w. Such a configuration will never hit 50% of 750w. You'll want a good ~500w unit instead which includes but not limited to XFX Core Edition 550, Seasonic S12II, Antec High Current Gamer 520, and Antec Neo Eco 520C.
Antec Three Hundred is sort of shit, especially at that price.
A core i7 2600 is unnecessary for Skyrim and gaming in general since games will not make use of all eight threads, the majority don't even make use of four yet. A core i5 2500 and core i7 2600 will perform nearly identical in gaming.
If you're not overclocking or doing SLI, getting a $150 Z68 motherboard is essentially a waste of money. A H61 or H67 motherboard is what you want.
A GTX 560 Ti is overkill for 1280x1024. If you don't plan on purchasing a 1080p monitor, getting such a card is essentially a waste of money.
That's a Core Edition 450 V2 which is just a cut down version of the original one. Original version was replaced by Newegg with the V2 a long time ago.
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TRIM isn't software, it's a command and there is nothing to download. It's supported through the operating system.
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On November 23 2011 14:45 skyR wrote:
TRIM isn't software, it's a command and there is nothing to download. It's supported through the operating system.
So what do I do to enable it?
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TRIM should be automatically enabled on Windows 7. If you want to check than you can do so through command prompt, you can google how to do this because I don't remember the command.
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@Phyre What womwomwom said. He's better at this than me.
+ Show Spoiler +For not overclocking, you can get an H61 or H67 motherboard, on the cheap end of things since you don' t need to connect a ton of things to it (should be ~60-75). H67s generally have slightly better SATA III implementation if you get a SATA III SSD. Just about the only benefit of the i7 over the i5 is hyperthreading - which it sounds like you won't use. Ram is fine. The power supply is supreme overkill. You'll want something in the 300-500w range, depending on which quality model is cheapest. Scroll up through some config recommendations to figure out what the quality models are (you don't want a shit one), if one one else chimes in soon. Cost will be ~$50. SSD is a good choice. It's reliable. Not the fastest possible, but should still be in the 'whoa, a lot faster than a harddrive' category. Graphics card is a good choice in general. A comparable to sometimes a tiny bit better card is the 6950, which is currently available at $229. I've been too lazy to put together a whole build for you, and it looks like you can browse Newegg, but here's the 6950: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150523You might want to google some GPU benchmarks for your favorite games to see if the 560Ti or 6950 does better on them. Edit: lol didn't pay attention to your resolution. GPUs in this class are overkill for your easy-to-run resolution. You can get something cheaper, probably a lot cheaper, like a 6850? I don't see that case recommended a lot, but if you like the looks, go for it. I think that covers it. It'll get you a better idea of what to look for before someone more skilled than I replies  . Basically it seems the Lifehacker guide wasn't the best for you.
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On November 23 2011 14:32 Womwomwom wrote:
Keep these items:
- Intel 320 SSD (or switch to Crucial M4, the M4 should be faster)
- G.Skill memory
Swap and get these items:
- Swap the Z68 Gigabyte motherboard for a Intel or Asrock H67/H61 motherboard. If you want to use SATA3 with your badass SSD, get a H67 motherboard. Else, just get a H61 motherboard from Intel or Asrock.
- i7 2600 for a i5 2400. You guessed right, the i7 2600 doesn't perform a whole lot better than the i5 2400 to justify the huge price difference.
- Power Supply to a 400-500W like an XFX Core 450W. You don't need 750W. What power supply depends on how beefy your GPU will be.
- Antec 300 is obsolete. If you want to stick around the $50-60 region, the Coolermaster HAF 912 is probably a better buy.
Is your resolution seriously going to stay at 1280x1024? Or are you going to buy a new monitor? This will justify how much graphical processing power you need. I'm just asking because 1280x1024 is ancient.
Edit: Mixed H61 and H67 around.
- I'll splurge a bit and go with the H67 board. ^_^ Any particular one you would recommend? There seem to be quite a few Asrock and Intel models available.
- Ah, good call. I was wondering why you would suggest the 2400 instead of the 2500k but I did some reading and if I'm reading this right, the 2500k is only superior if you intend to oc? Saves me another $30 if that's the case.
- Gotcha, I'll shop around for a 4-500W PSU instead. Maybe with the money saved I can get a nice quiet one which would be nice.
- What do you think about the Define R3 $110? I was reading this review on Anandtech and it seems well received and I like quiet. (sorry I didn't mention that earlier)
- I guess I should probably upgrade the monitors some day, so I guess I should make sure the build is strong enough to support a larger resolution later. I don't think I'll be upgrading the monitors for awhile though.
Thanks for your help!
On November 23 2011 14:38 skyR wrote:
If you got me a hand-me down, why don't you just try it on the system and see how it runs? A C2Q is still decent for a lot of games and a 8800GT is as well for your resolution. I'm pretty certain that Skyrim and most other games will be playable (not on ultra obviously).
The TX750v2 is the successor to the original TX750 and is better in every aspect. You should not be purchasing the original TX750. I'm not sure why you are getting such an overkill power supply when you said you aren't doing SLI. Even if you were, 750w is still overkill. A core i7 2600 uses around 100w while a core i5 2500 uses around 60w and a GTX 560 Ti uses around 160w. Such a configuration will never hit 50% of 750w. You'll want a good ~500w unit instead which includes but not limited to XFX Core Edition 550, Seasonic S12II, Antec High Current Gamer 520, and Antec Neo Eco 520C.
Antec Three Hundred is sort of shit, especially at that price.
A core i7 2600 is unnecessary for Skyrim and gaming in general since games will not make use of all eight threads, the majority don't even make use of four yet. A core i5 2500 and core i7 2600 will perform nearly identical in gaming.
If you're not overclocking or doing SLI, getting a $150 Z68 motherboard is essentially a waste of money. A H61 or H67 motherboard is what you want.
A GTX 560 Ti is overkill for 1280x1024. If you don't plan on purchasing a 1080p monitor, getting such a card is essentially a waste of money.
- Yeah, I'm going to definitely try out the hand me down. I'm a bit spoiled though by my girlfriend's $3k rig so I really want to enjoy Skyrim with all the bells and whistles.
- Gotcha, I was just following that Lifehacker article. Scrutinizing it further, it does seem overkill. I'll shop around, thanks for the suggestions!
- Wow, no love for the Antec 300. It looked so well reviewed. What do you think about the Fractal Define R3 that I linked above?
- Yep, looks like I'll be going i5-2400 as mentioned in my above response.
- Gotcha, I'll get a different motherboard.
- Yeah... I guess I should upgrade my monitors eventually. I do want the rig to be ready for when I do upgrade the monitors though, whenever that is.
Thanks!
@MisterFred: Thanks as well!
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As Skyr says, I'd probably try the hand me down computer first to see if it runs Skyrim well enough. If not, I'd probably get a new computer. 1280x1024 is so old that the old desktop should be able to get away with it.
1) Something like this Intel H67 motherboard. Some people might have a different opinion but I've never liked third party chipsets. The Intel is a bit pricier ($10 or so) than its Asrock friends but what you get is a NEC USB3.0 controller instead of one from Etron as well as a Intel Ethernet port.
The Realtek/Intel Ethernet port difference doesn't really matter but Etron...is not good. Of course your mileage may vary but when people wonder why Intel boards are pretty expensive compared to the competition, its because of stuff like this.
2) Basically yes.
3) Take Skyr's PSU recommendations.
4) If your motherboard is mATX sized and you want to pay $100, the Silverstone TJ08B-E is a very nice high end option. It should be quiet enough and its very small.
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Antec Three Hundred was a good option four years ago because cases back than were just a metal box that had screws and fans. Now we have manufacturers incorporating all these features such as cable routing, better HDD mounting, thumbscrews, tool-less locking systems, dust filters, etc into their cases to make it easier for the consumer to work with the case. Antec Three Hundred has none of this.
Fractal Design Define R3 is a nice option. Antec Performance One series of cases, their newest being the P280, is another good option for silent computing.
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Decent, but if you want to use it for gaming I reccomend getting one with a higher resolution.
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On November 24 2011 00:09 lyrlian wrote:Decent, but if you want to use it for gaming I reccomend getting one with a higher resolution.
um why? its not like that graphics card can handle anything higher
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EPT
