I don't want that though, I want starcraft micro, which is more positioning of units and flanking etc. rather than using a hero and casting an ultimate spell at the right time to take out the opponents army (more like group of 12 units amirite?).

What you have to understand is that warcraft 3 differs from starcraft not because it requires more micro, but that it requires a different type of micro.

Cloud[rA]

Canada60 Posts

July 16 2008 17:53 GMT

#46

wow great article man, I couldn't stop reading it.
I have always had faith in Sc2 and now thanks to this am dying to get this game...is there any speculation at all to the release date??

Centric

United States1989 Posts

July 16 2008 18:20 GMT

#47

On July 17 2008 02:52 UmmTheHobo wrote:

Show nested quote +

What you have to understand is the StarCraft has a balance between micro and macro not found in other games, and that is part of what makes it so amazingly difficult to master.

Ki_Do

Korea (South)981 Posts

July 16 2008 19:29 GMT

#48

starcraft have micro too, it seems that warcrafters dont know it and want to bring wc micro into sc. Surrouding with lings, high ground advantage, muta micro, lurker hold, vulture patrol, dancing ,shuttle+reaver etc... there is no need to claim for mbs and auto miining like if starcraft wont have micro without it =]

JazZ[AutO]

United States558 Posts

July 18 2008 20:01 GMT

#49

Awesome article. I haven't played Starcraft in probably 3 years now and I still occasionally check Tl.net to see whats up. I wasn't very interested in SC2 because I figured it would suck and I had moved on from SC after playing it for 8 years or however long it was. But reading this makes me excited for it and I think I will go home from work and play statcraft again

Greth

Belgium318 Posts

July 18 2008 21:35 GMT

#50

The MBS discussion and the Micro vs Macro discussion has grown to almost religious proportions, there is no way that one opinion can change anything about that - the battle will be waged, and will still be waged long after Starcraft II has come out.

I omitted the portion defending the new distribution of micro and macro for a large part because it would get too complicated and too long; it would have destroyed the continuity of the piece.
I will however, say a few words, again to calm some nerves.

The discussion is mostly waged in absolutes. No MBS vs MBS. Micro vs Macro. Again, in the real game, there is nuance.

Yes, hard line SC1 macro (e.g. selecting every building and building one unit) has been all but removed because of MBS - but MBS isn't a magic wonderbutton that manages your base for you.
Even the MBS I played will be very hard to sell to the new crowd of young gamers, who in recent years have been spoiled by 'I'll do it for you' gameplay.

Sure, you can have 5 barracks queued up in one hotkey. But you will have to click the button 5 times to make 5 marines in those barracks. Also, the generator that produces 2 marines at a time? The second queue only fills up when you manually do so. The second queue does not fill up with marines from the first queue.

Zerg? 24 larvae selected - want 24 mutas? have fun pressing M 24 times.
Seems silly? But that's exactly what the old school macro was like too. It got simplified, sure. it got reduced, obviously. But there is still a fair chunk of work you have to do to get your units - and this incarnation of macro will wear down certain buttons on your keyboard pretty damned fast.

Protoss? Oh they are going to have a whale of a time. They get off the easiest of all - maybe a compromise because a lot of their main units require more micro than the other races - but they aren't completely off the hook.
WarpGates are a cool 'gimick' but they can also win you the game if used right (see the SC2 game at WWI) but trust me that a lot of people will be swearing at those things more often than not. You have to change the gates back manually, and the cooldown is a real pain - in high end starcraft P players will have to use these gates to maintain an advantage, it will be as important as shuttle micro with reavers (it's basically the same thing - with the phase prism).

SC2 will have marginally reduced macro - but there is a lot of stuff happening inside your base that didn't used to be there. I'm not going to make a summary, but each race will have to be fooling around in their base.
On top of that there is the added micro in unit abilities that I mentioned in my article. Micro has been increased considerably, so much that the reduced macro is almost welcomed.

If you think macro is still 'almost non-existent' I will shine a light into something most people haven't though about yet:
Scouting Macro and with it Army Macro

To some extent, the placement and movement of your main force was only so important. there were 3 options (especially in late game) Home (defending-waiting) Map Control (middle, patrolling, flanking) Containment (at enemy base - attacking)
smaller forces would be used to flank or take out expansions.
(Bare with me here, I'm trying to keep this under 11 pages)

The added mobility in SC2 is enormous. It's not a gimmick, the three races have been almost warped to fit into this new philosophy. Reapers, colossi, phase prism, medivacs, nydus worms, creepspreading overlords, the mothership(recall), warp in ... etc... (yes this is a biased list).

In theory, an entire army can be across the map instantly. But likewise, if you do not have transport planned out, your army can be stuck for up to a minute on the other side of the map - or spread out.
In true Starcraft fashion, a game can be over in seconds if units are in the hands of a good player - this is exactly the case in SC2.
Yes, scouting is a very important part of SC1 - but it will be even more unmissable in SC2.
Also, eliminating the enemies means of scouting beyond the early/mid game will become even more vital.

I know I can't convince you - most anti-mbs people see a gaping hole, hundreds of APM obsolete. I know how you feel, I was on your side. But this is not just MBS like in WC3 - they have actually though about it.
Hope this helps.

maybenexttime

Poland5766 Posts

July 18 2008 22:07 GMT

#51

It's not about APM. It's about the fact that now you can macro "remotely" via hot keys, which shifts the balance heavily towards micro, in turn making the macro-oriented playstyle not viable anymore. Being forced to click a lot doesn't change anything.

Hopefully there'll emerge different playstyles, not present in BW. I for one hope they're gonna emphasize the importance of terrain (neutral structures, terrain with different effects like slowing, damage over time, etc., LOS blockers, natural blockades, a working high ground mechanics, etc.).

yangstuh

United States120 Posts

July 18 2008 23:55 GMT

#52

On July 17 2008 02:52 UmmTheHobo wrote:

Show nested quote +

Fuck.. so many ignorant fools when it comes to WC3. No, thats not how it works.

You can fucking kill a whole army with psi storm (which is not an ultimate spell, can be easily spammed)... so that argument is mute.

Oh yeah Greth,

Awesome article.. your writing ability really shines through. Great descripions and everything. But pressing a button 24 times to make 24 mutas or anything for the zerg? Zerg's strong point was making units in mass.. like you could selection 12 larva and make 12 units at the same time if thats what you wanted.

Well its not a big deal or anything.. just seems odd.

MrRammstein

Poland339 Posts

July 19 2008 02:08 GMT

#53

On July 19 2008 08:55 yangstuh wrote:

Show nested quote +

Storm against air (stacked, weaken Mutas), lings, workers or sometimes Marines may score many kills ;P

About amassing Z... it's more like how Z wins battles but about MBS way of producing:
there are cases when player takes 1 hand from keyboard/mouse to do something...?
so why not to take hand out of keyboard, place 2 fingers on mouse's left button and gogogo