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Why do stints have to be years, I think there were many days at least that maru was the best player from 13-15. Of course if you divide it up in years you will lose a lot to low resolution since these years were so competitive. If Maru needed to be the best, it wasn't just 3 pro gamers that he had to beat.
You can't just compare proleague statistics and putting cure above maru is laughable. He was probably comfortably in top 7 in 2015 [life, soo, maru, inno, zest, herO and sOs]. And a record that herO holds is amazingly impressive since he was supposed to carry his team against all of the top dogs and in all of the ace matches, whereas if your just another top player in skt you will get to play trash, or lowely players.
Maru at 7-2 over sOs 7-4 does not mean he's better either, and that the team miscalculated, sOs played the harder matches and were their golden boy, it isn't maru's face that was featured on an aeroplane.
There's been other arguments that are faulty, for instance the fact that serral has dominated for half the game, if maxpax started winning all of the online cups for the next 15 years that could though impressive, never cement him the goat status.
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On October 27 2025 22:33 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 06:15 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 04:22 Charoisaur wrote:On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more. ByuN had lower winrates than Serral in every year since 2018, but he earned more "points" (wins) and had a higher win-loss difference in every year which for me is the most important stat. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), ByuN is ahead of Serral. So you complain about people making "bad arguments" to then come to this marvelous and hopefully sarcastic statement, which even then is just...not that smart? Proleague, buddy, Proleague. We are talking about stats in Proleague, one particular season, the easiest to compare two players. If you can't even do that...well *shrug* Anyway. I originally just joined this one for the question "when was Maru the best player pre-2018?" and the answer from you two is: Never, can't back it up at all, completly made up, *angry noises*. So I got my my answer and wish you much fun screaming into the void. See y'all back when Mizenhauers addendum drops! I answered you, but then you tried to dispute it with literal misinformation until Char called you out. Not sure that went the way you were hoping…
I switched up a name, which I immediatly admitted as a mistake. Doesn't change that everything that I said holds true if you use the correct player - Stats.
So no, you didn't answer me. You avoided the topic and instead shifted the discussion to the value of KILs or Proleague...neither of which helped your original point. So again: 2016 was clearly not a year you would consider Maru to be "the best player in the world", because while he did great in Proleague, he failed to qualify for Blizzcon (which means: He failed to do well in the most competitive giga-galaxy tournaments of all time in that year). If you compare his 2016 to someone like Stats: Stats also did great (equal, slightly better or slightly worse, depending what you value) than Maru, but he qualified for Blizzcon. So Stats alone would have a bigger claim to be "the best player" in 2016...and you could make that argument for numerous players, not saying Stats is necessarily the best.
Which leaves, surprisingly, the question...when were those stints when Maru was "the best player in the world" pre-2018?
No one is having the argument with you about the value of Proleague. No one is disputing the competitiveness of GSL back in the day (though I will always fight on the importance of Blizzcon as the most competitive and important tournament of the year - case in point 2016: People always remember ByuN as a World Champion, the fact that he also won GSL that year kind of gets added on most of the time). But neither the value of Proleague nor the competitiveness of GSL by themselves make Maru "the best player in the world" randomly...this isn't even "Maru vs. Serral", this is literally "Maru vs. other koreans".
So can we make this easy? Do me the favor and do one of two things:
1)Point out these times Maru was "the best player in the world" pre-2018 and why.
2)Just admit you pulled that statement out of thin air and have literally no backup for it.
As Artosis said, you should be able to make your argument clearly, simply, and succinctly. When you can’t, you’re probably confused and likely seeking to confuse others.
If you try to make your argument so short you just skip over those little things called facts and statistics, you are not making an argument. You make up a baseless opinion. What would a lawyer call that? Hearsay?
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Literally barely anyone remember Maru nor anyone put him anywhere close as a top Koreans pre 2018.
Based on my memory, WOL was basically mvp nested and MC
Hots was basically a mix of all the other top Koreans and their accomplishments. For example sos 2 world champs, innovation the machine winning multiple GSLs, sOO failing short constantly , Life insane runs.
Maru fans would bring up his SSL win or his forgettable pro league stats. Majority of the fans base don’t even care about Maru prior to 2018.
Let’s be real here, Maru was literally a pedestrian pre 2018. If we do a goat list only from the period 2010-2017. Maru wouldn’t even be top 20
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
On October 28 2025 06:16 TeamMamba wrote:
Literally barely anyone remember Maru nor anyone put him anywhere close as a top Koreans pre 2018.
Based on my memory, WOL was basically mvp nested and MC
Hots was basically a mix of all the other top Koreans and their accomplishments. For example sos 2 world champs, innovation the machine winning multiple GSLs, sOO failing short constantly , Life insane runs.
Maru fans would bring up his SSL win or his forgettable pro league stats. Majority of the fans base don’t even care about Maru prior to 2018.
Let’s be real here, Maru was literally a pedestrian pre 2018. If we do a goat list only from the period 2010-2017. Maru wouldn’t even be top 20
This is silly.
He was up there as a top contender for years, and in terms of sheer raw ability and skill level especially.
I don’t think he had an appreciable span as ‘the best’ before 2018, but few did. I’d say Mvp, Innovation and Life are amongst a handful who one could say that about.
I think it’s safe to say maybe one shouldn’t put too much stock in your memory of the scene’s history, your conclusions are bonkers.
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United States1919 Posts
On October 24 2025 21:53 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2025 21:07 Mizenhauer wrote:On October 24 2025 03:32 WombaT wrote:
Yeah it’s an interesting interview all-round, not just another chance to relitigate GOAT chat :p GOAT addendum 2026 on the way! For realsies?
Yes. I need to finish a few projects, but once those are taken care of I'm on it!
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
On October 28 2025 07:36 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2025 21:53 WombaT wrote:On October 24 2025 21:07 Mizenhauer wrote:On October 24 2025 03:32 WombaT wrote:
Yeah it’s an interesting interview all-round, not just another chance to relitigate GOAT chat :p GOAT addendum 2026 on the way! For realsies? Yes. I need to finish a few projects, but once those are taken care of I'm on it!
Good stuff, always enjoy your work!
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On October 28 2025 03:50 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 22:33 rwala wrote:On October 26 2025 06:15 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 04:22 Charoisaur wrote:On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more. ByuN had lower winrates than Serral in every year since 2018, but he earned more "points" (wins) and had a higher win-loss difference in every year which for me is the most important stat. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), ByuN is ahead of Serral. So you complain about people making "bad arguments" to then come to this marvelous and hopefully sarcastic statement, which even then is just...not that smart? Proleague, buddy, Proleague. We are talking about stats in Proleague, one particular season, the easiest to compare two players. If you can't even do that...well *shrug* Anyway. I originally just joined this one for the question "when was Maru the best player pre-2018?" and the answer from you two is: Never, can't back it up at all, completly made up, *angry noises*. So I got my my answer and wish you much fun screaming into the void. See y'all back when Mizenhauers addendum drops! I answered you, but then you tried to dispute it with literal misinformation until Char called you out. Not sure that went the way you were hoping… I switched up a name, which I immediatly admitted as a mistake. Doesn't change that everything that I said holds true if you use the correct player - Stats. So no, you didn't answer me. You avoided the topic and instead shifted the discussion to the value of KILs or Proleague...neither of which helped your original point. So again: 2016 was clearly not a year you would consider Maru to be "the best player in the world", because while he did great in Proleague, he failed to qualify for Blizzcon (which means: He failed to do well in the most competitive giga-galaxy tournaments of all time in that year). If you compare his 2016 to someone like Stats: Stats also did great (equal, slightly better or slightly worse, depending what you value) than Maru, but he qualified for Blizzcon. So Stats alone would have a bigger claim to be "the best player" in 2016...and you could make that argument for numerous players, not saying Stats is necessarily the best. Which leaves, surprisingly, the question...when were those stints when Maru was "the best player in the world" pre-2018? No one is having the argument with you about the value of Proleague. No one is disputing the competitiveness of GSL back in the day (though I will always fight on the importance of Blizzcon as the most competitive and important tournament of the year - case in point 2016: People always remember ByuN as a World Champion, the fact that he also won GSL that year kind of gets added on most of the time). But neither the value of Proleague nor the competitiveness of GSL by themselves make Maru "the best player in the world" randomly...this isn't even "Maru vs. Serral", this is literally "Maru vs. other koreans". So can we make this easy? Do me the favor and do one of two things: 1)Point out these times Maru was "the best player in the world" pre-2018 and why. 2)Just admit you pulled that statement out of thin air and have literally no backup for it. Show nested quote +As Artosis said, you should be able to make your argument clearly, simply, and succinctly. When you can’t, you’re probably confused and likely seeking to confuse others. If you try to make your argument so short you just skip over those little things called facts and statistics, you are not making an argument. You make up a baseless opinion. What would a lawyer call that? Hearsay?
Nice one! Lawyers in America would call that getting Rule 11 sanctioned, and potentially disbarred  I said when he won his two KILs and at points during the tail end of the 2016 Proleague season when he was consistently smashing all the best players in the most prestigious and competitive SC2 competition. Others more knowledgeable/with a better memory than I could point to other periods and might debate my 2016 Proleague claim but at minimum it’s definitely fair to say that during the periods of time in which Maru held his KIL titles he was considered the best player in the world.
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On October 28 2025 03:30 ejozl wrote:
Why do stints have to be years, I think there were many days at least that maru was the best player from 13-15. Of course if you divide it up in years you will lose a lot to low resolution since these years were so competitive. If Maru needed to be the best, it wasn't just 3 pro gamers that he had to beat.
You can't just compare proleague statistics and putting cure above maru is laughable. He was probably comfortably in top 7 in 2015 [life, soo, maru, inno, zest, herO and sOs]. And a record that herO holds is amazingly impressive since he was supposed to carry his team against all of the top dogs and in all of the ace matches, whereas if your just another top player in skt you will get to play trash, or lowely players.
Maru at 7-2 over sOs 7-4 does not mean he's better either, and that the team miscalculated, sOs played the harder matches and were their golden boy, it isn't maru's face that was featured on an aeroplane.
There's been other arguments that are faulty, for instance the fact that serral has dominated for half the game, if maxpax started winning all of the online cups for the next 15 years that could though impressive, never cement him the goat status.
Your point about players having days or weeks as the best player I think is spot on and was honestly just an accepted truth in the scene back in the day when the game, performances, and results were so volatile. I think this speaks to the recency bias. Serral has been the undisputed best player for so many stretches in the last few years that folks maybe think that’s just always how it was. It speaks to Serral’s unbelievable strength and unmatched consistency, but pre-Serral you have to probably go all the way back to Mvp to uncover another extended period of consensus best player.
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On October 27 2025 23:12 Admiral Yang wrote:Show nested quote +Mvp won the most competitive tournaments against the most competitive pools during the most competitive eras in the most competitive region What is this claim based on? Surely the subsequent eras were much more competitive, given that the players who had dominated previously weren't good enough to continue dominating.
This is is a really fair question actually, and I think where a lot of the “modernists” slip. The first thing to say is that no one—including Serral, the most dominant player—has dominated SC2 on the level of a Magnus Carlsen in Chess (#1 player in all formats for a decade, consensus favorite to win every tournament, undisputed best player for over a decade, highest ELO ever, longest streak without a loss, 9 consecutive super tournament victories, 17 world championship titles, etc.). Carlsen’s dominance is actually a study in contrast to Serral’s. Unlike Serral, whose dominance came as the game and level of competition was declining due to retirements, injuries, and lack of new talent, Carlsen’s dominance maintains to this day as the level of competition at the super GM level grows at a faster rate than ever before in Chess’s history. Just in the last few years we have the youngest GM ever, the youngest player to reach 2800 ELO, and the youngest world champion. 4 of the top 10 players are under the age of 23. SC2 hasn’t had anything remotely like a young prodigy since Clem in broke out in 2019/2020. Chess has more and more Clems every year.
The thing is that in the earlier years, SC2 was like this, and that’s fundamentally what I mean when I say the level of competition was higher. Making it to the top of a field of hundreds of active pros practicing non-stop to navigate an endlessly evolving and shifting ecosystem of metas and strategies is a different thing than maintaining your dominance over an increasingly dwindling pool of a couple of dozen pros, most of whom are diminished at least somewhat in their speed or skill execution due to age or injury (older chess players struggle with blitz and especially bullet formats as well).
I think sometimes people forget (or maybe didn’t even know), that in prior eras of SC2 GSL, SSL and other KILs there were hundreds of players from all around the world competing in various qualification tournaments for a chance at a main tournament group stage for a chance at a second group stage for a chance to make the tournament bracket for a chance at the title. Other than like the World Series of Poker main event or like the Olympics, which are insane, I honestly cannot think of a level of competition in tournament play that’s more intense than this (I’m sure there are some other examples, just struggling to think of them off the top). So it’s not surprising that there weren’t any really dominant players during these earlier eras, other than maybe Mvp.
If you follow other sports or games like chess that are growing rather than declining, it’s just bizarre to see these SC2 fans claim that the game got more competitive over time. The justification that’s sometimes offered is that absolute skill levels have improved (everyone now is better than before). But this has nothing to do with the level of competition. If anything, as the game gets figured out and metas settle, execution becomes much more important than strategy and tactics, which diminishes the rate at which less skilled pros can upset higher skilled pros. In earlier eras, rank 50 players upset top 10 players regularly. These days Serral and Clem are posting like 80-90% win rates in certain matchups and could probably beat rank 50 players easily with a Uthermal troll build.
Anyways, the TLDR is that other than Serral, I don’t think SC2 has really ever had a truly dominant player compared to some other games and sports, and while Serral’s dominance is ridiculously impressive, it’s certainly in part a product of a diminished level of competition. This isn’t to take anything away from Serral, who I think is the “best” player to ever play the game.
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It seems that your definition of competitive means larger pool of realistic winners. Which is fine, but if you make that the crux of your definition of who was the greatest you end up arguing that MVP was somehow greater because he was worse.
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I attribute a lot of the dominance by nestea and mvp to the IM team house that was just ahead of the curve, of course these 2x players presumably attributed the most to that team house. But with kespa thrown into the mix you get the most concentrated talent pool ever, and so it's literally impossible to dominate in the same manner, also because of all the player switching between teams.
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Biggest reason why Rotti and most of SC2 commentators call Serral the goat is because they want this esport to keep going so they need to spin this narrative to try to make the game appealing, they really don't care about being objective or recall past glories.
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On October 28 2025 13:37 Admiral Yang wrote:
It seems that your definition of competitive means larger pool of realistic winners. Which is fine, but if you make that the crux of your definition of who was the greatest you end up arguing that MVP was somehow greater because he was worse.
Who is the better football player out of George Best and Marcus Rashford?
It's Marcus Rashford and it's not even close.
Who is the greater football player out of George Best and Marcus Rashford?
It's George Best and it's not even close.
Being better doesn't mean being greater...
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On October 28 2025 12:23 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 23:12 Admiral Yang wrote:Mvp won the most competitive tournaments against the most competitive pools during the most competitive eras in the most competitive region What is this claim based on? Surely the subsequent eras were much more competitive, given that the players who had dominated previously weren't good enough to continue dominating. This is is a really fair question actually, and I think where a lot of the “modernists” slip. The first thing to say is that no one—including Serral, the most dominant player—has dominated SC2 on the level of a Magnus Carlsen in Chess (#1 player in all formats for a decade, consensus favorite to win every tournament, undisputed best player for over a decade, highest ELO ever, longest streak without a loss, 9 consecutive super tournament victories, 17 world championship titles, etc.). Carlsen’s dominance is actually a study in contrast to Serral’s. Unlike Serral, whose dominance came as the game and level of competition was declining due to retirements, injuries, and lack of new talent, Carlsen’s dominance maintains to this day as the level of competition at the super GM level grows at a faster rate than ever before in Chess’s history. Just in the last few years we have the youngest GM ever, the youngest player to reach 2800 ELO, and the youngest world champion. 4 of the top 10 players are under the age of 23. SC2 hasn’t had anything remotely like a young prodigy since Clem in broke out in 2019/2020. Chess has more and more Clems every year. The thing is that in the earlier years, SC2 was like this, and that’s fundamentally what I mean when I say the level of competition was higher. Making it to the top of a field of hundreds of active pros practicing non-stop to navigate an endlessly evolving and shifting ecosystem of metas and strategies is a different thing than maintaining your dominance over an increasingly dwindling pool of a couple of dozen pros, most of whom are diminished at least somewhat in their speed or skill execution due to age or injury (older chess players struggle with blitz and especially bullet formats as well). I think sometimes people forget (or maybe didn’t even know), that in prior eras of SC2 GSL, SSL and other KILs there were hundreds of players from all around the world competing in various qualification tournaments for a chance at a main tournament group stage for a chance at a second group stage for a chance to make the tournament bracket for a chance at the title. Other than like the World Series of Poker main event or like the Olympics, which are insane, I honestly cannot think of a level of competition in tournament play that’s more intense than this (I’m sure there are some other examples, just struggling to think of them off the top). So it’s not surprising that there weren’t any really dominant players during these earlier eras, other than maybe Mvp. If you follow other sports or games like chess that are growing rather than declining, it’s just bizarre to see these SC2 fans claim that the game got more competitive over time. The justification that’s sometimes offered is that absolute skill levels have improved (everyone now is better than before). But this has nothing to do with the level of competition. If anything, as the game gets figured out and metas settle, execution becomes much more important than strategy and tactics, which diminishes the rate at which less skilled pros can upset higher skilled pros. In earlier eras, rank 50 players upset top 10 players regularly. These days Serral and Clem are posting like 80-90% win rates in certain matchups and could probably beat rank 50 players easily with a Uthermal troll build. Anyways, the TLDR is that other than Serral, I don’t think SC2 has really ever had a truly dominant player compared to some other games and sports, and while Serral’s dominance is ridiculously impressive, it’s certainly in part a product of a diminished level of competition. This isn’t to take anything away from Serral, who I think is the “best” player to ever play the game.
Yeah the skill level argument isn't a good one, mainly because the skill level rising is due to the combined effort of all players playing since then, and not Serral or Clem's sole credit.
It's like in swimming where techniques are constantly evolving and thus michael phelps isn't holding a single world record anymore, but still what he did back then was more impressive than what swimmers are doing today.
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On October 28 2025 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2025 12:23 rwala wrote:On October 27 2025 23:12 Admiral Yang wrote:Mvp won the most competitive tournaments against the most competitive pools during the most competitive eras in the most competitive region What is this claim based on? Surely the subsequent eras were much more competitive, given that the players who had dominated previously weren't good enough to continue dominating. This is is a really fair question actually, and I think where a lot of the “modernists” slip. The first thing to say is that no one—including Serral, the most dominant player—has dominated SC2 on the level of a Magnus Carlsen in Chess (#1 player in all formats for a decade, consensus favorite to win every tournament, undisputed best player for over a decade, highest ELO ever, longest streak without a loss, 9 consecutive super tournament victories, 17 world championship titles, etc.). Carlsen’s dominance is actually a study in contrast to Serral’s. Unlike Serral, whose dominance came as the game and level of competition was declining due to retirements, injuries, and lack of new talent, Carlsen’s dominance maintains to this day as the level of competition at the super GM level grows at a faster rate than ever before in Chess’s history. Just in the last few years we have the youngest GM ever, the youngest player to reach 2800 ELO, and the youngest world champion. 4 of the top 10 players are under the age of 23. SC2 hasn’t had anything remotely like a young prodigy since Clem in broke out in 2019/2020. Chess has more and more Clems every year. The thing is that in the earlier years, SC2 was like this, and that’s fundamentally what I mean when I say the level of competition was higher. Making it to the top of a field of hundreds of active pros practicing non-stop to navigate an endlessly evolving and shifting ecosystem of metas and strategies is a different thing than maintaining your dominance over an increasingly dwindling pool of a couple of dozen pros, most of whom are diminished at least somewhat in their speed or skill execution due to age or injury (older chess players struggle with blitz and especially bullet formats as well). I think sometimes people forget (or maybe didn’t even know), that in prior eras of SC2 GSL, SSL and other KILs there were hundreds of players from all around the world competing in various qualification tournaments for a chance at a main tournament group stage for a chance at a second group stage for a chance to make the tournament bracket for a chance at the title. Other than like the World Series of Poker main event or like the Olympics, which are insane, I honestly cannot think of a level of competition in tournament play that’s more intense than this (I’m sure there are some other examples, just struggling to think of them off the top). So it’s not surprising that there weren’t any really dominant players during these earlier eras, other than maybe Mvp. If you follow other sports or games like chess that are growing rather than declining, it’s just bizarre to see these SC2 fans claim that the game got more competitive over time. The justification that’s sometimes offered is that absolute skill levels have improved (everyone now is better than before). But this has nothing to do with the level of competition. If anything, as the game gets figured out and metas settle, execution becomes much more important than strategy and tactics, which diminishes the rate at which less skilled pros can upset higher skilled pros. In earlier eras, rank 50 players upset top 10 players regularly. These days Serral and Clem are posting like 80-90% win rates in certain matchups and could probably beat rank 50 players easily with a Uthermal troll build. Anyways, the TLDR is that other than Serral, I don’t think SC2 has really ever had a truly dominant player compared to some other games and sports, and while Serral’s dominance is ridiculously impressive, it’s certainly in part a product of a diminished level of competition. This isn’t to take anything away from Serral, who I think is the “best” player to ever play the game. Yeah the skill level argument isn't a good one, mainly because the skill level rising is due to the combined effort of all players playing since then, and not Serral or Clem's sole credit. It's like in swimming where techniques are constantly evolving and thus michael phelps isn't holding a single world record anymore, but still what he did back then was more impressive than what swimmers are doing today.
True to some degree
However since 2018, Serral has been evolving and teaching other Zergs players how to raise their skills. A lot of current skills was started by Serral.
For example more use of burrow roaches, burrow infestor, introducing lurker viper engagements to the Koreans, etc.
I haven’t seen any other Zergs that had yet to have such an impact raising his peers level. Other zergs have yet to learn how to engage properly in late game zvp like Serral
That’s literally half of Sc2 history period
HM- to be fair no one can copy what dark does cause he just does whatever he feels like doing
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Who is the better football player out of George Best and Marcus Rashford?
It's Marcus Rashford and it's not even close.
Who is the greater football player out of George Best and Marcus Rashford?
It's George Best and it's not even close.
Being better doesn't mean being greater...
These arguments by comparison just keep getting worse.
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On October 28 2025 10:19 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2025 03:50 Balnazza wrote:On October 27 2025 22:33 rwala wrote:On October 26 2025 06:15 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 04:22 Charoisaur wrote:On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:
I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask:
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What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world?
Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more. ByuN had lower winrates than Serral in every year since 2018, but he earned more "points" (wins) and had a higher win-loss difference in every year which for me is the most important stat. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), ByuN is ahead of Serral. So you complain about people making "bad arguments" to then come to this marvelous and hopefully sarcastic statement, which even then is just...not that smart? Proleague, buddy, Proleague. We are talking about stats in Proleague, one particular season, the easiest to compare two players. If you can't even do that...well *shrug* Anyway. I originally just joined this one for the question "when was Maru the best player pre-2018?" and the answer from you two is: Never, can't back it up at all, completly made up, *angry noises*. So I got my my answer and wish you much fun screaming into the void. See y'all back when Mizenhauers addendum drops! I answered you, but then you tried to dispute it with literal misinformation until Char called you out. Not sure that went the way you were hoping… I switched up a name, which I immediatly admitted as a mistake. Doesn't change that everything that I said holds true if you use the correct player - Stats. So no, you didn't answer me. You avoided the topic and instead shifted the discussion to the value of KILs or Proleague...neither of which helped your original point. So again: 2016 was clearly not a year you would consider Maru to be "the best player in the world", because while he did great in Proleague, he failed to qualify for Blizzcon (which means: He failed to do well in the most competitive giga-galaxy tournaments of all time in that year). If you compare his 2016 to someone like Stats: Stats also did great (equal, slightly better or slightly worse, depending what you value) than Maru, but he qualified for Blizzcon. So Stats alone would have a bigger claim to be "the best player" in 2016...and you could make that argument for numerous players, not saying Stats is necessarily the best. Which leaves, surprisingly, the question...when were those stints when Maru was "the best player in the world" pre-2018? No one is having the argument with you about the value of Proleague. No one is disputing the competitiveness of GSL back in the day (though I will always fight on the importance of Blizzcon as the most competitive and important tournament of the year - case in point 2016: People always remember ByuN as a World Champion, the fact that he also won GSL that year kind of gets added on most of the time). But neither the value of Proleague nor the competitiveness of GSL by themselves make Maru "the best player in the world" randomly...this isn't even "Maru vs. Serral", this is literally "Maru vs. other koreans". So can we make this easy? Do me the favor and do one of two things: 1)Point out these times Maru was "the best player in the world" pre-2018 and why. 2)Just admit you pulled that statement out of thin air and have literally no backup for it. As Artosis said, you should be able to make your argument clearly, simply, and succinctly. When you can’t, you’re probably confused and likely seeking to confuse others. If you try to make your argument so short you just skip over those little things called facts and statistics, you are not making an argument. You make up a baseless opinion. What would a lawyer call that? Hearsay? Nice one! Lawyers in America would call that getting Rule 11 sanctioned, and potentially disbarred I said when he won his two KILs and at points during the tail end of the 2016 Proleague season when he was consistently smashing all the best players in the most prestigious and competitive SC2 competition. Others more knowledgeable/with a better memory than I could point to other periods and might debate my 2016 Proleague claim but at minimum it’s definitely fair to say that during the periods of time in which Maru held his KIL titles he was considered the best player in the world.
I wouldn't agree that winning a KIL makes you the best player in the world at that moment, but that are atleast examples I can work with, thanks!
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On October 29 2025 00:27 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2025 10:19 rwala wrote:On October 28 2025 03:50 Balnazza wrote:On October 27 2025 22:33 rwala wrote:On October 26 2025 06:15 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 04:22 Charoisaur wrote:On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:
[quote]
Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more. ByuN had lower winrates than Serral in every year since 2018, but he earned more "points" (wins) and had a higher win-loss difference in every year which for me is the most important stat. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), ByuN is ahead of Serral. So you complain about people making "bad arguments" to then come to this marvelous and hopefully sarcastic statement, which even then is just...not that smart? Proleague, buddy, Proleague. We are talking about stats in Proleague, one particular season, the easiest to compare two players. If you can't even do that...well *shrug* Anyway. I originally just joined this one for the question "when was Maru the best player pre-2018?" and the answer from you two is: Never, can't back it up at all, completly made up, *angry noises*. So I got my my answer and wish you much fun screaming into the void. See y'all back when Mizenhauers addendum drops! I answered you, but then you tried to dispute it with literal misinformation until Char called you out. Not sure that went the way you were hoping… I switched up a name, which I immediatly admitted as a mistake. Doesn't change that everything that I said holds true if you use the correct player - Stats. So no, you didn't answer me. You avoided the topic and instead shifted the discussion to the value of KILs or Proleague...neither of which helped your original point. So again: 2016 was clearly not a year you would consider Maru to be "the best player in the world", because while he did great in Proleague, he failed to qualify for Blizzcon (which means: He failed to do well in the most competitive giga-galaxy tournaments of all time in that year). If you compare his 2016 to someone like Stats: Stats also did great (equal, slightly better or slightly worse, depending what you value) than Maru, but he qualified for Blizzcon. So Stats alone would have a bigger claim to be "the best player" in 2016...and you could make that argument for numerous players, not saying Stats is necessarily the best. Which leaves, surprisingly, the question...when were those stints when Maru was "the best player in the world" pre-2018? No one is having the argument with you about the value of Proleague. No one is disputing the competitiveness of GSL back in the day (though I will always fight on the importance of Blizzcon as the most competitive and important tournament of the year - case in point 2016: People always remember ByuN as a World Champion, the fact that he also won GSL that year kind of gets added on most of the time). But neither the value of Proleague nor the competitiveness of GSL by themselves make Maru "the best player in the world" randomly...this isn't even "Maru vs. Serral", this is literally "Maru vs. other koreans". So can we make this easy? Do me the favor and do one of two things: 1)Point out these times Maru was "the best player in the world" pre-2018 and why. 2)Just admit you pulled that statement out of thin air and have literally no backup for it. As Artosis said, you should be able to make your argument clearly, simply, and succinctly. When you can’t, you’re probably confused and likely seeking to confuse others. If you try to make your argument so short you just skip over those little things called facts and statistics, you are not making an argument. You make up a baseless opinion. What would a lawyer call that? Hearsay? Nice one! Lawyers in America would call that getting Rule 11 sanctioned, and potentially disbarred I said when he won his two KILs and at points during the tail end of the 2016 Proleague season when he was consistently smashing all the best players in the most prestigious and competitive SC2 competition. Others more knowledgeable/with a better memory than I could point to other periods and might debate my 2016 Proleague claim but at minimum it’s definitely fair to say that during the periods of time in which Maru held his KIL titles he was considered the best player in the world. I wouldn't agree that winning a KIL makes you the best player in the world at that moment, but that are atleast examples I can work with, thanks!
I personally tend to agree with you, I’m more making a point about how the “community” saw it at the time. I just remember Soulkey or Rain or whoever would win a tournament and the commentators and analysts would say they were the best. Or Maru would crush Ps with MMM no Vikings while all the other terrans couldn’t even qualify for tournaments and in Proleague matches GTR or whoever would say this guy is the best in the world. It’s all extremely subjective and these periods of time of being the best for Maru pre-2018 were definitely short-lived compared to some other players. I do think it’s fair to say that pretty after he won his 2013 OSL he was a perennial title contender and consistently “one of the best” in the world.
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On October 28 2025 13:37 Admiral Yang wrote:
It seems that your definition of competitive means larger pool of realistic winners. Which is fine, but if you make that the crux of your definition of who was the greatest you end up arguing that MVP was somehow greater because he was worse.
That’s a fair, if simple, summary of my position sure. I don’t understand what you mean about Mvp tho? Greater than who because he was worse than who?
Basically I think you can—and many people do—make a persuasive argument for Garry Kasparov or Bobby Fischer as the chess GOAT, even tho neither in their prime could realistically hang with Magnus or frankly most of today’s top 25 players. The absolute skill level and understand of chess across the board has simply grown too much over time. I really do not understand why some SC2 fans fail to grasp this. It’s axiomatic, basic understanding in literally every other sport or game. The only conclusion I can draw is that some fans are SC lifers and don’t watch or play other sports or games.
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On October 29 2025 01:39 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2025 13:37 Admiral Yang wrote:
It seems that your definition of competitive means larger pool of realistic winners. Which is fine, but if you make that the crux of your definition of who was the greatest you end up arguing that MVP was somehow greater because he was worse. That’s a fair, if simple, summary of my position sure. I don’t understand what you mean about Mvp tho? Greater than who because he was worse than who? Basically I think you can—and many people do—make a persuasive argument for Garry Kasparov or Bobby Fischer as the chess GOAT, even tho neither in their prime could realistically hang with Magnus or frankly most of today’s top 25 players. The absolute skill level and understand of chess across the board has simply grown too much over time. I really do not understand why some SC2 fans fail to grasp this. It’s axiomatic, basic understanding in literally every other sport or game. The only conclusion I can draw is that some fans are SC lifers and don’t watch or play other sports or games.
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EPT
