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On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs.
8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4.
Stop lying out of your ass.
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On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass.
Yeah, apparently I can't read (which is hilarious, considering how often you people force me to look up these statistics). Love the completly unnecessary aggression though.
So yeah, I had multiple fuckups in that...no idea why I mixed herO in that when I looked at Stats...well, stats.
His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more.
Buuuuut the fact that you already have to make these discussions shows that Marus 2016 Proleague is not such a marvelous "one of a kind"-things people pretend it to be.
Special thanks however to Google-AI for this answer to my question "who was the 2016 Starcraft 2 Proleague MVP?":
The 2016 StarCraft 2 Proleague MVP was Clem, who was awarded this title at the end of the 2016 Proleague season.
And you people proclaim Maru is a wonderchild, where is his MVP award with 14 in a league he didn't play in, HUH?
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On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. Buuuuut the fact that you already have to make these discussions shows that Marus 2016 Proleague is not such a marvelous "one of a kind"-things people pretend it to be.
So by that logic if people say Serral is not the Goat because he hasn't won a GSL, the fact this discussion exists shows that he really isn't as clear cut at the top as his fans pretend to be?.
People making bad arguments doesn't prove anything
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On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more.
ByuN had lower winrates than Serral in every year since 2018, but he earned more "points" (wins) and had a higher win-loss difference in every year which for me is the most important stat. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), ByuN is ahead of Serral.
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On October 26 2025 04:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more. ByuN had lower winrates than Serral in every year since 2018, but he earned more "points" (wins) and had a higher win-loss difference in every year which for me is the most important stat. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), ByuN is ahead of Serral.
So you complain about people making "bad arguments" to then come to this marvelous and hopefully sarcastic statement, which even then is just...not that smart?
Proleague, buddy, Proleague. We are talking about stats in Proleague, one particular season, the easiest to compare two players. If you can't even do that...well *shrug*
Anyway. I originally just joined this one for the question "when was Maru the best player pre-2018?" and the answer from you two is: Never, can't back it up at all, completly made up, *angry noises*. So I got my my answer and wish you much fun screaming into the void.
See y'all back when Mizenhauers addendum drops!
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On October 25 2025 22:46 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. Maru didn't "fail to break through regionlock", he missed the qualification-line by over 3000 points, that's equal to more than a GSL-2nd place. It is also funny that you proclaim people don't remember Proleague and then completly misrepresent how easy it is/was for foreigner to get into Blizzcon. Especially since you hand-picked Elazer, a player who only very barely got into Blizzcon 2016, he narrowly avoided to have to play a LastChance decider against Violet to get in (it got a bit less dramatic afterwards because Polt dropped out aswell). There was no "near autoqualify". At this juncture I think Maru’s had more shots at a WC than any other player and hasn’t won one, even in the weaker era.
I think him and herO are equalled here, counting the official WCs (till 2019 Blizzcon, 21-23 IEM, from 24 EWC). Which I find pretty impressive by herO tbh, as he lost 2 years because of his military service.
Overall, I think he gets too little credit in GOAT discussions and having advanced my analysis by a couple more players, I am quite interested if he is able to place inside the top 10, which he didn't do in Miz' list.
On October 26 2025 06:15 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 04:22 Charoisaur wrote:On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more. ByuN had lower winrates than Serral in every year since 2018, but he earned more "points" (wins) and had a higher win-loss difference in every year which for me is the most important stat. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), ByuN is ahead of Serral. "when was Maru the best player pre-2018?"
The argument against objective statistics in GOAT-discussions never really stuck with me, but if the adjective in question is "best" and not "greatest", I think no one should have issues with some factuals on this one, especially as we stay rather intra-era.
Maru's statistics starting from 2013-2017 (average place, won tournaments, match win rate):
2013: 7,08, 1, 65,37%
2014: 7,93, none, 64,29%
2015: 6,50, 1, 66,99%
2016: 7,83, none, 73,44%
2017: 9,22, none, 62,71%
Looking at a Zerg World Champion: Life (would have used soO, but I don't have the data yet)
2013: 6,35, 3, 66,36%
2014: 6,35, 3, 63,76%
2015: 7,55, 2, 61,47%
2016: /
2017: /
Looking at another old-timer: herO
2013: 15,33%, 1, 66,67%
2014: 6,00%, 2, 68,87%
2015: 5,77%, 2, 66,37%
2016: 10,50%, 0, 63,21%
2017: 7,40%, 1, 68,52%
Looking at a fellow Terran: INnoVation
2013: 5,00, 1, 69,83%
2014: 5,63, 1, 67,96%
2015: 5,83, 2, 75,23%
2016: 7,75, 1, 69,09%
2017: 5,86, 3, 68,94%
I can't imagine people meaning a win in a singular tournament to determine the best. That would lead to Serral outscaling Maru massively in the bigger picture.
And even if we look at that: Maru won SSL in 2015, but is flanked by Life's GSL season 1 and IEM Taipei, where Life beat Maru in the finals.
2013... as Maru was still up and coming at that time and others outperformed him in hard statistics, I would need some discussions from back then to be convinced. In that time frame he was beaten twice by Dear, who won finals against Soulkey and soO not much after. I doubt Maru was a clear cut best, even if he put his name on the board in that time... but I am open for a case to be made.
Of course, one could also look at Rain, soO, Zest, Taeja and sOs on top, but I don't have the numbers yet. So yeah, even looking at the comparison above... I'd like to know which time frames exactly are meant for this notion, as rwala proclaimed "many stints pre-2018".
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On October 26 2025 06:15 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 04:22 Charoisaur wrote:On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more. ByuN had lower winrates than Serral in every year since 2018, but he earned more "points" (wins) and had a higher win-loss difference in every year which for me is the most important stat. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), ByuN is ahead of Serral. So you complain about people making "bad arguments" to then come to this marvelous and hopefully sarcastic statement, which even then is just...not that smart? Proleague, buddy, Proleague. We are talking about stats in Proleague, one particular season, the easiest to compare two players. If you can't even do that...well *shrug* Anyway. I originally just joined this one for the question "when was Maru the best player pre-2018?" and the answer from you two is: Never, can't back it up at all, completly made up, *angry noises*. So I got my my answer and wish you much fun screaming into the void. See y'all back when Mizenhauers addendum drops!
Now I'm curious to hear what's different when Serral has the highest winrates but lower wins in total compared to when Maru has it. The only reason Stats has more wins is... because he played more games - exactly the same reason as it is for ByuN vs Serral.
Not sure why it's relevant at how many tournaments we're looking, the reason for having more wins but lower winrate is exactly the same
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On October 26 2025 15:57 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 06:15 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 04:22 Charoisaur wrote:On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more. ByuN had lower winrates than Serral in every year since 2018, but he earned more "points" (wins) and had a higher win-loss difference in every year which for me is the most important stat. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), ByuN is ahead of Serral. So you complain about people making "bad arguments" to then come to this marvelous and hopefully sarcastic statement, which even then is just...not that smart? Proleague, buddy, Proleague. We are talking about stats in Proleague, one particular season, the easiest to compare two players. If you can't even do that...well *shrug* Anyway. I originally just joined this one for the question "when was Maru the best player pre-2018?" and the answer from you two is: Never, can't back it up at all, completly made up, *angry noises*. So I got my my answer and wish you much fun screaming into the void. See y'all back when Mizenhauers addendum drops! Now I'm curious to hear what's different when Serral has the highest winrates but lower wins in total compared to when Maru has it. The only reason Stats has more wins is... because he played more games - exactly the same reason as it is for ByuN vs Serral. Not sure why it's relevant at how many tournaments we're looking, the reason for having more wins but lower winrate is exactly the same
"Maru is the best GSL player of all time, having won by far the most of them"
"Yeah, but Clem has won far more ESL Cups. When we talk about tournament wins it shouldn't matter at what tournaments we look at, so Clem is the far better player."
That is your argument right now. We however talk about a specific teamleague season, which naturally has wildly different "rules" compared to just randomly looking at a bunch of unrelated 1v1 tournaments.
If you think winrate is THE most important stat that trumps everything in Proleague, then that is fine. Would also mean that a player who snipes one other player and then never plays again becomes your Proleague MVP with 1-0 stats...but in seriousness: I always thought that going 12-10 is more impressive than going 5-3.
Usually in most sports, we do not go by percentages. You become the Top Striker in Football by getting the most goals - doesn't matter how many games you need for that, as long as your number is bigger than anyone elses. Stats numbers are bigger...partially. I'm still 100% fine with calling Maru the 2016 Proleague MVP, especially if you factor in that he got the finals MVP (for beating TY I guess?). I'm just not buying into it that it is a miraculous run that forever shaked the foundation of the game...it was not.
And it still, to loop this back, doesn't help the original question. So again the answer remains "never".
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Guys we’ve been through all this before. Your boy Serral is the GOAT in most people’s minds but it’s despite—not because—he showed results in the most competitive tournaments and leagues and eras and regions of the game. He simply did not. These are not really debatable propositions and when you try to debate them by discounting Proleague or proclaiming Blizzcon to be the most competitive tournament in the history of the game, it’s what we lawyers call “proving too much.”
Balnazza you’re completely missing the point re: Elazer. The point is simply to note that region lock is designed to give non-Koreans more shots at international premier and world championship titles. Wombat smartly concedes this point because it’s not disputable. Why do you feel the need to debate it? Pointing out that Inno and Maru—world champion contenders for sure—-missed out on Blizzcon by massive amounts of WCS points demonstrates the opposite of what you think it does.
Here’s the thing, and this is really the bottom line. We do not know what Serral’s achievements would look like if he had played in the most competitive eras, leagues, and tournaments. It’s certainly possible that he would have been equally if not more dominant. But it’s also possible that for reasons of style or substance or metas or patches that there would have been certain players or eras or matches that would have posed much more significant barriers that Serral faced in the modern LOV era…especially if he was fighting through the brutal KIL tournament formats and KR region nerf for world championship qualification. Saying that he won on Korean soil and against the top KR players in the modern era is a very shallow rejoinder to this.
It is not so hard to imagine that players like Soulkey or Rain or Mvp or Byun or SOS or Zest or Soo or Taeja or Life or Dream or Flash or Jaedong or whoever in their prime posing major problems for Serral if he was battling for results in KILs or Proleague. Any one of these guys could have been the equivalent of a Clem that essentially makes the match-up a toss-up, at best, but more likely there would have been several such players. I think this is especially the case in ZvZ, but it could be in other match-ups. Guys like Solar in the modern era have had winning streaks against Serral so it’s just not at all hard to imagine many of the best players of earlier eras doing the same on a more consistent basis.
Let me clarify. I am not saying Serral would not have been equally dominant in earlier, more competitive eras and tournaments and regions. But to assume that he would have and to deny that his dominance is at least in part connected to the decline in competition is honestly just very strange.
You’ll notice I have not mentioned Maru’s name here. I am not making a case for him. I’m in an Mvp = GOAT phase and I know no one agrees with me, but I don’t care. My larger point here is that recency and confirmation bias are largely driving this convo, and I’m trying to challenge that a bit.
I don’t agree with Miz on everything he writes but the central theory of his GOAT analysis avoids the pitfalls of a lot of these heuristics and biases by not trying to diminish the more competitive earlier eras of the game just to justify crowning his preferred players. It’s great to be a Serral fanboy and most agree he’s the GOAT. It’s also fine (and better imho) to acknowledge that all of his results were from weaker eras, tournaments, leagues, and regions.
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On October 27 2025 01:03 rwala wrote:
especially if he was fighting through the brutal KIL tournament formats and KR region nerf for world championship qualification.
Wasn't it you who said that it isn't a nerf/buff when things are done to be equaled out or to approximate a "perfect" modifier, which this exact rule was meant to do? So how can you call this a nerf?
It is not so hard to imagine that players like Soulkey or Rain or Mvp or Byun or SOS or Zest or Soo or Taeja or Life or Dream or Flash or Jaedong or whoever in their prime posing major problems for Serral if he was battling for results
Well, if Mvp is your GOAT, he faces an even harder "challenge" than the one you are pointing out for Serral.
As I wrote before, Mvp is most likely the GOAT contender who played the least against other GOAT contenders. So, do the same arguments that you throw at Serral also apply to Mvp? If so, how can he be your GOAT? If not, why? Can you make some arguments why you are inconsistent in applying your metrics?
See, this is my issue with you... it seems like you throw out unfounded accusations or proclaim arguments, but you rarely follow them through as an argument as well as coherently in applying logic.
It happened again in this very thread.
You misquote others, you put words in their mouth and you make claims without backing them up.
So far, I am still waiting for you to write at least one thing about your notion that Maru had "many stints pre-2018" where he was supposedly the best.
I am further waiting for you to prove the unfounded accusation that I said that "proleague doesn’t matter at all".
But to assume that he would have
Who here does?? Stop having arguments in your head.
The only thing that was being said is that it would statistically be reasonable to assume that he would have been the best player if all players gathered in their prime. Not that he would have been equally dominant.
I don’t agree with Miz on everything he writes but the central theory of his GOAT analysis avoids the pitfalls of a lot of these heuristics and biases by not trying to diminish the more competitive earlier eras of the game just to justify crowning his preferred players.
Do you accuse anyone in particular when you talk about people justify crowning their preferred player?
Are you even aware that there is no more transparent list out there than mine, as I demonstrated every little detail of how I arrived at each and every number, without obfuscating, for all of you guys to double check?
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Balnazza you’re completely missing the point re: Elazer. The point is simply to note that region lock is designed to give non-Koreans more shots at international premier and world championship titles. Wombat smartly concedes this point because it’s not disputable. Why do you feel the need to debate it? Pointing out that Inno and Maru—world champion contenders for sure—-missed out on Blizzcon by massive amounts of WCS points demonstrates the opposite of what you think it does.
Actually, you are completly missing the point, because you fail to defend your own arguments. I never said anything about regionlock, of course it was designed to help the foreign scene. But that doesn't make it an "auto-qualify", especially not when you then pick a player who had to fight tooth and nail to be in that particular Blizzcon. Of course you picked Elazer because he reached the Ro4 and I guess you wanted to make some point that he got that spot gifted and for free...which he didn't.
You also do the same thing with Maru then: Mind you, my original question was for you to defend your argument that Maru "had many stints" pre-2018 where he was "the best player in the world". You failed to do that aswell, instead making these grandious arguments about KILs and Proleagues and what not.
Inno and Maru missing Blizzcon by massive amount of points in 2016 proved this point: Neither of them was in contention to be the best player in that year, because they performed poorly in their region. This says nothing about the qualitfy of KILs or Proleague in 2016, because that isn't important for your argument.
So how about this: Maybe stop using arguments people bring to Discussion A to then geniously disproving them in Discussion B and actually defend your own argument. When was Maru the best player in the world pre-2016 and why? You said "for many stints", so I assume you can atleast list 1-2 years he was the best player in the world?
It really is not that hard of a question, is it?
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On October 27 2025 03:37 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +Balnazza you’re completely missing the point re: Elazer. The point is simply to note that region lock is designed to give non-Koreans more shots at international premier and world championship titles. Wombat smartly concedes this point because it’s not disputable. Why do you feel the need to debate it? Pointing out that Inno and Maru—world champion contenders for sure—-missed out on Blizzcon by massive amounts of WCS points demonstrates the opposite of what you think it does. Actually, you are completly missing the point, because you fail to defend your own arguments. I never said anything about regionlock, of course it was designed to help the foreign scene. But that doesn't make it an "auto-qualify", especially not when you then pick a player who had to fight tooth and nail to be in that particular Blizzcon. Of course you picked Elazer because he reached the Ro4 and I guess you wanted to make some point that he got that spot gifted and for free...which he didn't. You also do the same thing with Maru then: Mind you, my original question was for you to defend your argument that Maru "had many stints" pre-2018 where he was "the best player in the world". You failed to do that aswell, instead making these grandious arguments about KILs and Proleagues and what not. Inno and Maru missing Blizzcon by massive amount of points in 2016 proved this point: Neither of them was in contention to be the best player in that year, because they performed poorly in their region. This says nothing about the qualitfy of KILs or Proleague in 2016, because that isn't important for your argument. So how about this: Maybe stop using arguments people bring to Discussion A to then geniously disproving them in Discussion B and actually defend your own argument. When was Maru the best player in the world pre-2016 and why? You said "for many stints", so I assume you can atleast list 1-2 years he was the best player in the world? It really is not that hard of a question, is it?
People need to stop disrespecting elazer.
Gsl vs the world the Koreans were literally too easy for Serral that elazer was his toughest opponent in that tournament
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On October 27 2025 02:07 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 01:03 rwala wrote:
especially if he was fighting through the brutal KIL tournament formats and KR region nerf for world championship qualification. Wasn't it you who said that it isn't a nerf/buff when things are done to be equaled out or to approximate a "perfect" modifier, which this exact rule was meant to do? So how can you call this a nerf? Show nested quote +It is not so hard to imagine that players like Soulkey or Rain or Mvp or Byun or SOS or Zest or Soo or Taeja or Life or Dream or Flash or Jaedong or whoever in their prime posing major problems for Serral if he was battling for results
Well, if Mvp is your GOAT, he faces an even harder "challenge" than the one you are pointing out for Serral. As I wrote before, Mvp is most likely the GOAT contender who played the least against other GOAT contenders. So, do the same arguments that you throw at Serral also apply to Mvp? If so, how can he be your GOAT? If not, why? Can you make some arguments why you are inconsistent in applying your metrics? See, this is my issue with you... it seems like you throw out unfounded accusations or proclaim arguments, but you rarely follow them through as an argument as well as coherently in applying logic. It happened again in this very thread. You misquote others, you put words in their mouth and you make claims without backing them up. So far, I am still waiting for you to write at least one thing about your notion that Maru had "many stints pre-2018" where he was supposedly the best. I am further waiting for you to prove the unfounded accusation that I said that "proleague doesn’t matter at all". Who here does?? Stop having arguments in your head. The only thing that was being said is that it would statistically be reasonable to assume that he would have been the best player if all players gathered in their prime. Not that he would have been equally dominant. Show nested quote +
I don’t agree with Miz on everything he writes but the central theory of his GOAT analysis avoids the pitfalls of a lot of these heuristics and biases by not trying to diminish the more competitive earlier eras of the game just to justify crowning his preferred players.
Do you accuse anyone in particular when you talk about people justify crowning their preferred player? Are you even aware that there is no more transparent list out there than mine, as I demonstrated every little detail of how I arrived at each and every number, without obfuscating, for all of you guys to double check?
I don’t apply metrics because I don’t invent math equations to crown my preferred candidate the GOAT. Mvp won the most competitive tournaments against the most competitive pools during the most competitive eras in the most competitive region. As Artosis said, you should be able to make your argument clearly, simply, and succinctly. When you can’t, you’re probably confused and likely seeking to confuse others.
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On October 26 2025 06:15 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2025 04:22 Charoisaur wrote:On October 26 2025 02:49 Balnazza wrote:On October 26 2025 01:55 Charoisaur wrote:On October 25 2025 22:19 Balnazza wrote:On October 25 2025 14:05 rwala wrote:On October 24 2025 02:56 Balnazza wrote:I really want to stay out of the discussion, just to avoid repeating the same-old arguments in both directions, especially on a thread that isn't even really about the GOAT-topic...but I have to ask: On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:
You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
What year(s) pre-2018 would anyone consider Maru to be the best player in the world? Even if you would do the ludicrous thing to proclaim him the best player after winning his two Premier events pre-2018...that would still just be two 'stints', which in my book hardly count as "many". Most of 2016 Proleague when he accomplished one of the greatest feats in all of SC. But I’d be happy to concede he wasn’t the best player as much as Inno, Rain, Zest, TY, MVP, and probably others. You can go back and watch Proleague and that’s what Wolf, GTR, Valdez were saying. A lot of the modern fans don’t really remember or even value Proleague because they never watched it or cared much about it and would probably point out that Maru didn’t even make Blizzcon in 2016. Neither did Inno, and in fact many Korean GOATs failed to break through region lock since they unfortunately didn’t have the region lock near autoqualify that got players like Elazer and Special in. How can Proleague (as you proclaim later on) be the most competite thing in 2016 when Maru AND Inno didn't make it into Blizzcon that year? Clearly Blizzcon is more competitive to get in. Also, sorry, but people overexaggurate Marus Proleague '16 slightly...he had an incredibly high winrate, but in terms of actual points, he was equal or behind herO. Not to mention that most of his success came from Mirrormatches of all things. And if you look into Jin Airs playoffs runs, it is noteworthy that most of the heaviy-lifting did get done by Cure and especially sOs. 8-0 in tvt, 5-1 in TvZ, 9-3 in PvT. What kind of "points" are you talking about, there were no points. herO was 20-9 which is significantly worse. All playoff matches together Maru was 7-2 compared to Cures 4-3 and sOs 7-4. Stop lying out of your ass. His winrate is lower than Marus, but he earned more "Points" as in wins (27) and his Win-Loss-Difference, which for me is the most important stat, is equal to Marus. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), they eventually equal out and it comes down to what you value more. ByuN had lower winrates than Serral in every year since 2018, but he earned more "points" (wins) and had a higher win-loss difference in every year which for me is the most important stat. So if you take three statistics (Winrate, Wins and W/L-Diff), ByuN is ahead of Serral. So you complain about people making "bad arguments" to then come to this marvelous and hopefully sarcastic statement, which even then is just...not that smart? Proleague, buddy, Proleague. We are talking about stats in Proleague, one particular season, the easiest to compare two players. If you can't even do that...well *shrug* Anyway. I originally just joined this one for the question "when was Maru the best player pre-2018?" and the answer from you two is: Never, can't back it up at all, completly made up, *angry noises*. So I got my my answer and wish you much fun screaming into the void. See y'all back when Mizenhauers addendum drops!
I answered you, but then you tried to dispute it with literal misinformation until Char called you out. Not sure that went the way you were hoping…
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On October 27 2025 10:48 TeamMamba wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 03:37 Balnazza wrote:Balnazza you’re completely missing the point re: Elazer. The point is simply to note that region lock is designed to give non-Koreans more shots at international premier and world championship titles. Wombat smartly concedes this point because it’s not disputable. Why do you feel the need to debate it? Pointing out that Inno and Maru—world champion contenders for sure—-missed out on Blizzcon by massive amounts of WCS points demonstrates the opposite of what you think it does. Actually, you are completly missing the point, because you fail to defend your own arguments. I never said anything about regionlock, of course it was designed to help the foreign scene. But that doesn't make it an "auto-qualify", especially not when you then pick a player who had to fight tooth and nail to be in that particular Blizzcon. Of course you picked Elazer because he reached the Ro4 and I guess you wanted to make some point that he got that spot gifted and for free...which he didn't. You also do the same thing with Maru then: Mind you, my original question was for you to defend your argument that Maru "had many stints" pre-2018 where he was "the best player in the world". You failed to do that aswell, instead making these grandious arguments about KILs and Proleagues and what not. Inno and Maru missing Blizzcon by massive amount of points in 2016 proved this point: Neither of them was in contention to be the best player in that year, because they performed poorly in their region. This says nothing about the qualitfy of KILs or Proleague in 2016, because that isn't important for your argument. So how about this: Maybe stop using arguments people bring to Discussion A to then geniously disproving them in Discussion B and actually defend your own argument. When was Maru the best player in the world pre-2016 and why? You said "for many stints", so I assume you can atleast list 1-2 years he was the best player in the world? It really is not that hard of a question, is it? People need to stop disrespecting elazer. Gsl vs the world the Koreans were literally too easy for Serral that elazer was his toughest opponent in that tournament
Elazer is great, so is Special, Time, Has, and others from non-KR regions that were repeatedly seeded into international premier and WC tourneys via region lock. But this isn’t the point. The point is that KILs and Proleague was were the fiercest competition was. These other tournaments had prestige and prize pool but were designed for marketing and business purposes to grow the game outside of South Korea. They were not intended to represent the highest level of competition, and they generally didn’t.
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Northern Ireland27265 Posts
On October 27 2025 22:28 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2025 02:07 PremoBeats wrote:On October 27 2025 01:03 rwala wrote:
especially if he was fighting through the brutal KIL tournament formats and KR region nerf for world championship qualification. Wasn't it you who said that it isn't a nerf/buff when things are done to be equaled out or to approximate a "perfect" modifier, which this exact rule was meant to do? So how can you call this a nerf? It is not so hard to imagine that players like Soulkey or Rain or Mvp or Byun or SOS or Zest or Soo or Taeja or Life or Dream or Flash or Jaedong or whoever in their prime posing major problems for Serral if he was battling for results
Well, if Mvp is your GOAT, he faces an even harder "challenge" than the one you are pointing out for Serral. As I wrote before, Mvp is most likely the GOAT contender who played the least against other GOAT contenders. So, do the same arguments that you throw at Serral also apply to Mvp? If so, how can he be your GOAT? If not, why? Can you make some arguments why you are inconsistent in applying your metrics? See, this is my issue with you... it seems like you throw out unfounded accusations or proclaim arguments, but you rarely follow them through as an argument as well as coherently in applying logic. It happened again in this very thread. You misquote others, you put words in their mouth and you make claims without backing them up. So far, I am still waiting for you to write at least one thing about your notion that Maru had "many stints pre-2018" where he was supposedly the best. I am further waiting for you to prove the unfounded accusation that I said that "proleague doesn’t matter at all".
But to assume that he would have
Who here does?? Stop having arguments in your head. The only thing that was being said is that it would statistically be reasonable to assume that he would have been the best player if all players gathered in their prime. Not that he would have been equally dominant.
I don’t agree with Miz on everything he writes but the central theory of his GOAT analysis avoids the pitfalls of a lot of these heuristics and biases by not trying to diminish the more competitive earlier eras of the game just to justify crowning his preferred players.
Do you accuse anyone in particular when you talk about people justify crowning their preferred player? Are you even aware that there is no more transparent list out there than mine, as I demonstrated every little detail of how I arrived at each and every number, without obfuscating, for all of you guys to double check? I don’t apply metrics because I don’t invent math equations to crown my preferred candidate the GOAT. Mvp won the most competitive tournaments against the most competitive pools during the most competitive eras in the most competitive region. As Artosis said, you should be able to make your argument clearly, simply, and succinctly. When you can’t, you’re probably confused and likely seeking to confuse others.
Haven’t you argued that the Kespa era was the most competitive era though?
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Mvp won the most competitive tournaments against the most competitive pools during the most competitive eras in the most competitive region
What is this claim based on? Surely the subsequent eras were much more competitive, given that the players who had dominated previously weren't good enough to continue dominating.
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Winrates don't account for strength of schedule.
Tournaments are a crapshoot because of bracket format, even if not, 1 single tournament shouldnt define your whole year or carreer.
Prize pool metrics are even wilder, with single elim tournaments being worth a huge chunk of the yearly prize pool.
The funny thing is, Serral wins on all 3 metrics, even when you filter winrates vs Koreans but don't account that Serral's Korean opponents are just way better than Koreans.
The best single measure of a players strength is Aligulac rating, and Serral has been far far more dominant than any other player, adn that reflects on betting lines, he is (almost?) always favoured to win.
So yes, Rotterdam is obviously right, there's only "controversy" on SC2 because of a few koreaboo die hard fans, much much more dominant than magnus is on Chess.
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EPT
