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Today i m thinking to create a mod for SC2 called Resurection and i want to collect advices from protoss progamers or semi progamers
The main objectives of the mod is to make the game as competitive as the original (or little bit less) but more enjoyable for new players. SC2 is clearly a competitive and an elitist game in a nich of old school gamers philosophy.
I can give you clues on how i wanna tweak SC2, it s a basic idea listed below that everybody know here (but it will help you to give me advices on a main Protoss tweak). In the first release of the mod i want to start by two simple objectives focused on game speed and ground control
1) Slow cooldown attack of all units especially ranged units and extend range of ranged units by +1 in order to improve macro movement of army control (like SC:BW)
2) 9 workers start
3) Gold minerals mines They are settled in mud ground, they protect workers of harassement but workers has much more distance to gather gold minerals (represented in violet on the map below)
4) Mud ground = heavy buildings can t be constructed on mud (add a light tag buildings for defensive structures, represent by marron on the map below)
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/dBvtpJ9/overgrowth-mud.jpg)
With these 4 changes, i want to add one main change per race and as i was a Zerg then Terran player, i m not sure about what i should think in term of improving protoss gameplay.
For example, if i have one change to make to terran gameplay, i will focus on medivacs (and because terran is kind of the most interessant race to play, there s no one mandatory BIG change), medivacs heal would be nerf from 4hp per second to 3 hp per second (in the sense of slowing cooldown attack) and load units in a medivacs will take a little bit more time (like if you are unloading)
For Zergs, i want burrowed Roachs be able to pass over cliffs. I also want to add sisters queens in order to ask players to adapt his gas economy depending of the size of the map and how fast he wants to spread creep..
But then what i must think for one or two protoss changes ?
What would you like to tweak to Protoss ?
I m not asking advices for a full change of Protoss gameplay, i m just willing to add one simple idea on how it can be more fun to play in a old school style, slower and more ground control oriented.
There are many answers, but i m more liking a deep and complex change for this race, something which can really refresh protoss gameplay than the two other examples (medivacs and roachs). The first idea which comes to me is the addition of the arbiter (mix with warprism) and reverse warp-in units condition (more duration if you warp units far away your nexus, less duration if you are building them inside gateway)
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Any change that starts with modifying the attack speed and range of every single unit is going to be completely impossible to get even remotely sensible or balanced for one person.
If you want to have something vaguely competitive, you've got to figure out less sweeping changes than that.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
What problem are you solving by giving Roaches cliff movement?
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i believe a +2 or +1 leash range to interceptors would be a good start to fix protoss
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On April 29 2024 19:21 bela.mervado wrote:
i believe a +2 or +1 leash range to interceptors would be a good start to fix protoss
Aah yes. Make skytoss even easier to pilot. Let's have it fly somewhat near danger for a second, release interceptors, and just kill the zerg army while flying to a safe corner on the other side of the map yeah? Just in case, we can also give feedback another +1 range. Screwit, +3 range. Abduct is OP, so can't have that happening. Sounds lit fam. Maybe we can even get Protoss to 60% of GM. 50% isn't enough 
On April 29 2024 19:03 WombaT wrote:
What problem are you solving by giving Roaches cliff movement?
LMAO I did not read that far.
Vision, your passion is appreciable, but these kind of `change everything' posts are not a good use of energy IMO. Changes in SC2 are possible - but not ones of the kind of scale you propose.
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I fail to understand how any of these changes work towards the goal of "making the game as competitive as BroodWar" and/or "make it more interesting for newer player". In fact, anything that "slows down" things seems already like a bad idea to get newer players interest. There is a reason RTS got faster over the years, not slower.
That being said - I would love the change to the Medivac to remove instant-pickup. Buuut I also have a passionate hatred towards the Medivac as the most fun-killing unit in the entire game, so that's that...
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If you remove insta-pickup for medivac, don't forget to remove banelings from the game too.
You cannot NOT understand what banelings will do to infantry that cannot be picked up fast, so banelings have to go. Or be 2x slower, this is also a fine change.
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No more ideas for one main Protoss tweak ?
(Expect Interceptors idea which are more considered as an end game units, but thanks for idea anyway)
Maybe should i ask directly to a pro gamer like harstem ....
On April 29 2024 19:03 WombaT wrote:
What problem are you solving by giving Roaches cliff movement?
There is no problem. I think crossing cliffs is too rare (comparatively a really good feature)
By default, which units would like to be able of crossing cliffs ? There are not so many other units which can be considered in this spot, adepts ? it s not serious... Stalkers do that but only if there s an observer; so in a way it s a bit different (then stalkers and roachs are really different units)
So like a big worm burrowed, i would like to see some actions with roachs overwhelming multiple fronts
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crossing cliffs at will is so powerful, that mapmakers literally had to make it impossible to do so, besides one single very well marked spot. For every main base, of every single map. What on earth makes you think, that would be a good thing to have on a cheap, fast, massable unit like a roach?
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On April 30 2024 06:07 Branch.AUT wrote:
crossing cliffs at will is so powerful, that mapmakers literally had to make it impossible to do so, besides one single very well marked spot. For every main base, of every single map. What on earth makes you think, that would be a good thing to have on a cheap, fast, massable unit like a roach?
In fairness you'd see some pretty sick multitasking heavy ZvZ.
Exclusively
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On April 30 2024 06:07 Branch.AUT wrote:
crossing cliffs at will is so powerful, that mapmakers literally had to make it impossible to do so, besides one single very well marked spot. For every main base, of every single map. What on earth makes you think, that would be a good thing to have on a cheap, fast, massable unit like a roach?
Powerfull for which race ? which units ? reapers i guess
ok well, it has to be considered. Do you think colossus is overpowered ? the answer is no
The time for build a colossus is 54 for 6 supply
The time for a roach is 19 for 2 supply. So technically, there s no difference.
Colossus and roachs aren t top tier units
Zerg can mass units of course but if roachs movement would be really slow when they are burrowed, it exists a counterpart to colossus which can be micro easily. The upgrade would be unlocked after the speed upgrade of roachs. No bonus regeneration.
Terran can wall with buildings easily and protoss have photon cannon. It has to be considered when you are talking of end game.
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Colossi are not cheap, fast and easily massable units like roaches.
You cannot all-in with mass colossi, zerg can mass 200/200 roaches very fast. Not comparable at all.
Roach is a T1 unit that can be mass-built from all hatcheries.
Colossi require an expensive extra tech structure and it's own production structure - and nobody builds 5 robo's.
Also you compared only build times but 3 roaches are 225/75/6 when 1 colossi is 300/200/6 i.e. almost 3x more gas.
Try to create a 200/200 roach army, measure your time.
Then try to create a 200/200 colossi army, measure your time.
Do you see difference here?
You say - terran can wall with buildings easily and protoss have photon cannon.
But neither terrans nor protoss have enough free resources to wall off every place or build a lot of photon cannons everywhere. You want to give Zerg more directions for attacks without giving terran/protoss more resources or ways to defend those attacks?
If you let roaches go up/down cliffs you'll bring Zerg winrate to 80% or so.
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If you are an experimented player, you can check the roach den to check if an all in is coming.
As the core of starcraft is a paper, cissor stone game, you will be in a winning position in scouting the strategy of your opponent soon in the game. You can also in the future, after a first convinced release, add upgrades for decreasing the time for build bunkers (in order to add ground control for terrans --- nerfing the holy terran base forteress in the same time)
Protoss have warp in, so there s no problem in term of control (+photo cannon)
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Even if Protoss player scouted the roach all-in in time - it doesn't mean they have extra ~1000 minerals required to build 5-6 extra photon cannons to defend from directions which previously were not accessible to roaches.
How about marines having an upgrade that allows them to jump up cliffs - shouldn't be a problem, right?
After all Zerg can wall in with buildings, protoss have photon cannons.
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On April 30 2024 21:13 Vision_ wrote:
If you are an experimented player, you can check the roach den to check if an all in is coming.
As the core of starcraft is a paper, cissor stone game
Indeed.
Zerg with flying roaches is rock, and protoss, terran, and all other zerg builds would be scissors 
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On April 30 2024 21:23 Ciaus237 wrote:Indeed. Zerg with flying roaches is rock, and protoss, terran, and all other zerg builds would be scissors Don't be so pessimistic - maybe we can make flying marines happen too?
Vision_, I think you can make such a mod and then play a few games as Terran or Protoss vs someone else playing Zerg, someone of comparable overall level and who knows about cliff-walking roaches.
And then you'll see for yourself if you like to play against this.
No amount of theorycrafting will give you as much information as 10 actual games with that mod.
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Ok, so i would be happy if i can count on you for organisation and crowfunding of a small tournament (with only the four first changes as a first ealease). I m looking for a test during september and i will ask maybe to a TL admin if i can have some article to announce during summer the idea of getting feedbacks on a slower and more strategic version of SC2.
That s said, i don t know how i will solve the third objective :
3) allow natural base farest,
Which small tweak are you expecting ? reapers ?
Queens push ?
NB : no rush map on this version, i also need a mapmaker
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On April 30 2024 22:50 Vision_ wrote:
Ok, so i would be happy if i can count on you for organisation and crowfunding of a small tournament (with only the four first changes as a first ealease). I m looking for a test during september and i will ask maybe to a TL admin if i can have some article to announce during summer the idea of getting feedbacks on a slower and more strategic version of SC2.
That s said, i don t know how i will solve the third objective :
3) allow natural base farest,
Which small tweak are you expecting ? reapers ?
Queens push ?
NB : no rush map on this version, i also need a mapmaker
We don’t need to play test it, cliffwalking Roaches would be completely broken
On April 30 2024 20:34 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 06:07 Branch.AUT wrote:
crossing cliffs at will is so powerful, that mapmakers literally had to make it impossible to do so, besides one single very well marked spot. For every main base, of every single map. What on earth makes you think, that would be a good thing to have on a cheap, fast, massable unit like a roach? Powerfull for which race ? which units ? reapers i guess ok well, it has to be considered. Do you think colossus is overpowered ? the answer is no The time for build a colossus is 54 for 6 supply The time for a roach is 19 for 2 supply. So technically, there s no difference. Colossus and roachs aren t top tier units Zerg can mass units of course but if roachs movement would be really slow when they are burrowed, it exists a counterpart to colossus which can be micro easily. The upgrade would be unlocked after the speed upgrade of roachs. No bonus regeneration. Terran can wall with buildings easily and protoss have photon cannon. It has to be considered when you are talking of end game.
There’s a massive difference, you can build multiple Roaches at a time, more again if you have multiple hatches.
Cliff raiders are an interesting idea but one Blizz never really got to work. Base architecture largely relying on frontal chokes being a key reason.
I’m all for tweaking the game but you can’t just redesign half of it as a solo project competing with a decade + of millions of man hours in shaping how it’s currently played. Especially if you’re not receptive to feedback.
If memory serves you don’t actually play the melee version of the game? This isn’t a criticism, nor does it mean all your ideas are bad. But how are you meant to gauge what’s likely to be too powerful in the current meta with these changes if you’re not part of it to begin with?
Every second Protoss would like to see Warp Gate removed, or pushed way back in the tech tree, and then other changes made as necessary. It’s probably the big one, but most of us concede it’s unlikely to actually happen at this stage of the game.
I like the idea of mud ground but what problem is that solving? If anything it’s your light units that are running around the map, separate from main armies and harassing. So if anything the movement speed/type targeting is maybe targeting the wrong type here.
A lot depends on placement and intention of course, but slowing down lings, zealot hitsquads just makes them a worse option to split from your army and makes it more deathbally
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Yes you re right i don t play anymore to the game and today i see many players with wounds (injury) at shoulder or feel stressed when they play SC2; maybe it s time to question why SC2 rewards more faster than smarter players.
That s said, of course, it s obvious that speed competition is a major part of the game, and even if you want you couldn t resolve entirely the problem because the pathfinding is acting like a grap of units (so area damage are insane)
From a project overview, the only long part inside concerning only these four first changes is 1) slow cooldowns attack (maybe slightly adapt weapons range and all spells btw, in considering a global scale every feature).
I m planning approximately to work ten days during summer to achieve mainly this one. let s see if it s enought, then a mapmaker would be huge (complete 3) allow natural base farest)
Thank for answer to my question about protoss, it can be helpfull to know what players doesn t like very much.
For mud, you re right it s not possible to affect only light units, then it won t change sry.
But mud is cool, it s smaller and it also combines the idea of Rotterdam which is to forbid building on some ground (here frequently mud would be placed in the last level, between cliffs).
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I just wrote a piece of example on my table desk.
Today (marines weapon range = 5)
Speedling speed = 6.5
Marines cooldown (stim) = 0.41
number of shoot before contact = 0.77/0.41 = 1.88
33% slower AND Marines range increased from 5 to 6
Marines cooldown (stim) = 0.54
Duration before contact = 6/6.5 = 0.92
Marines have to shoot = 0.54*1.88 = 1,01
So speed of speedlings have to be reduced from 6.5 to 6.0 (which is about 92%)
Done against marines but a median can be done between more units.
A reduction of zerglings speed by 8% looks ok to me (ratio SC2 Very fast to SC2 fast = 86% for example) to not disturb professionnals players. NB : with 25% slower CD and +1 range >>> 4% difference
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Tanks / Roach
Work out with 25% slower on CD for tank and +2 range.
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Then confirmed with Zergling / Tank, OK
NB : Tank sight is now equal to 13, max range 15
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CD reduction = 25% Bonus range +2 if range >= 9
CD reduction = 28% Bonus range +1 if 6 =< range < 9
CD reduction = 33% Bonus range +1 if range = 5
CD reduction 33% if range <= 4
Then scale units speed from slow category to very fast from [2.56 : 6.57] to [1% : 8%]
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Colossus / Marauder ?
First example already very complicated but it shows that if you slow marines attack CD by 33% you have to find a value superior at 25% (for Zerglings CD). So the only way is to use the tester to adjust the percentage testing with multiple fights. It sounds interesting, but yes balance process can be long and you have to find a scheme between units to order the balance process
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On May 01 2024 03:54 Vision_ wrote:
Yes you re right i don t play anymore to the game and today i see many players with wounds (injury) at shoulder or feel stressed when they play SC2; maybe it s time to question why SC2 rewards more faster than smarter players.
That s said, of course, it s obvious that speed competition is a major part of the game, and even if you want you couldn t resolve entirely the problem because the pathfinding is acting like a grap of units (so area damage are insane)
From a project overview, the only long part inside concerning only these four first changes is 1) slow cooldowns attack (maybe slightly adapt weapons range and all spells btw, in considering a global scale every feature).
I m planning approximately to work ten days during summer to achieve mainly this one. let s see if it s enought, then a mapmaker would be huge (complete 3) allow natural base farest)
Thank for answer to my question about protoss, it can be helpfull to know what players doesn t like very much.
For mud, you re right it s not possible to affect only light units, then it won t change sry.
But mud is cool, it s smaller and it also combines the idea of Rotterdam which is to forbid building on some ground (here frequently mud would be placed in the last level, between cliffs).
My point was more, light units = a lot of your skirmishers and harass units, so slowing them actually disincentivises splitting armies because it makes it worse to do so.
It’s not actually the core idea I mind, some interesting ones can come from all sources, what I don’t see is a kind of joined-up idea of what you’re trying to do overall, ironically a lack of vision.
1. What is the overall goal with your tweaks?
2. How does this particular change fit into point 1?
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On May 01 2024 06:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2024 03:54 Vision_ wrote:
Yes you re right i don t play anymore to the game and today i see many players with wounds (injury) at shoulder or feel stressed when they play SC2; maybe it s time to question why SC2 rewards more faster than smarter players.
That s said, of course, it s obvious that speed competition is a major part of the game, and even if you want you couldn t resolve entirely the problem because the pathfinding is acting like a grap of units (so area damage are insane)
From a project overview, the only long part inside concerning only these four first changes is 1) slow cooldowns attack (maybe slightly adapt weapons range and all spells btw, in considering a global scale every feature).
I m planning approximately to work ten days during summer to achieve mainly this one. let s see if it s enought, then a mapmaker would be huge (complete 3) allow natural base farest)
Thank for answer to my question about protoss, it can be helpfull to know what players doesn t like very much.
For mud, you re right it s not possible to affect only light units, then it won t change sry.
But mud is cool, it s smaller and it also combines the idea of Rotterdam which is to forbid building on some ground (here frequently mud would be placed in the last level, between cliffs). My point was more, light units = a lot of your skirmishers and harass units, so slowing them actually disincentivises splitting armies because it makes it worse to do so. It’s not actually the core idea I mind, some interesting ones can come from all sources, what I don’t see is a kind of joined-up idea of what you’re trying to do overall, ironically a lack of vision. 1. What is the overall goal with your tweaks? 2. How does this particular change fit into point 1?
The main idea is to give SC2 macro movement army, so it isn t sufficient if you only change speed of fights, you also have to buff defensive features of each races. The meta in SC2 force you to make one big army against one other big army (+harassement if you want), and btw, most of fights aren t resolved on a large front line, but more by a head to head position (head-on opposition)
What is necessary for strategy = Multiples Fronts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/YLSRRV1/xelnaga.jpg)
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David Kim says
"Take StarCraft 2," Kim said. "It's one of my favorite games of all time, but I often wonder, like, is this really a real-time strategy game, or is it more like real-time execution?"
By fixating on the speed and precision of professional-tier competitive play, RTS development was overcomplicating its core gameplay, alienating players who might otherwise be interested, he thinks. "Why are we making an RTS game," said Kim, "where you have to be so good at like, playing the piano as fast as possible, as efficiently as possible?"
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Canada8989 Posts
I advise you to go take a look at Starbow, the team behind it seemed to have some of the same ideas as you have.
If that does not satisfy you, then my best advise is to just make your mod and mess arround with your ideas. Maybe find some people to play it with you to test stuff.
You won't get much from us outside of debate, people have different opinion and it's near impossible to say what's good or not without seeing it in action or at least knowing the specifics. I'd say you probably have a good idea of where you want to go.
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EPT
