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A fake pillar is a pillar that appears safe, but actually does not keep overlords safe from marines stalkers and hydras. I think it's OK if there are significant differences in their appearance-the problem is on maps like Alcyone where safe and unsafe pillars look EXACTLY the same.
Here are the map stats and visuals: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1bb7apx/infographics_of_the_5_new_and_4_returning_ladder/
This is inexcusably bad game design. It's akin to putting a reaper wall graphic only to find out your reaper can't jump back down, or making a purposefully misleading choke to make it impossible for Protoss to wall off.
On Alcyone some pillars are higher than others...but the example below shows two identical pillars, same height, same everything....howcome one is safe and the other isn't?
Inb4 "Serral is OP so zerg players deserve to have worse QoL"
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Easy fix, map makers shouldn't put any overlord pillars in any maps
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Why is it that some pillars don't work? shouldn't all high ground work the same?
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Zurich15363 Posts
Correct me if I am wrong but the pillars from your example are the same height and give the same protection from vision.
The only difference is that the opponent can get vision with a ground unit from the (higher ground) triangle third base.
This really isn't a problem. By the time a third base is established XvZ has an air unit anyway to spot for overlords. And early game your Ovi is safe enough. Should a Terran be hell bent on sending marines to that particular pillar you can always fly past the golden wall, and there is even a safe pillar closer to the opponent base.
Plus it's obvious why the pillar is "unsafe" with the high ground nearby.
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No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting.
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On April 10 2024 18:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting.
The point --------------------------->
. . . . . . . . . Your head 
The OP is not asking for more pillars - they are asking for pillars to not be a dice-roll. You should be able to quickly determine, at a glance, whether your overlord is safe there or not.
Besides, for everyone between serious amateur and not-quite-serral, Zerg is not doing great, so your other point is silly. But also completely irrelevant to the thread 
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On April 10 2024 18:57 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 18:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting. The point ---------------------------> . . . . . . . . . Your head The OP is not asking for more pillars - they are asking for pillars to not be a dice-roll. You should be able to quickly determine, at a glance, whether your overlord is safe there or not. Besides, for everyone between serious amateur and not-quite-serral, Zerg is not doing great, so your other point is silly. But also completely irrelevant to the thread
Reynor said it on stream perfectly--Serral picked (lol) the best time to enter military. Playing Zerg as a mere mortal on this amateur map-pool is an exercise in pure frustration. Maybe next season, instead of gimmicky chokes and rocks and gold bases everywhere, we can have a map where 1/2 are islands and we need to build transports!
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On April 10 2024 18:57 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 18:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting. The point ---------------------------> . . . . . . . . . Your head The OP is not asking for more pillars - they are asking for pillars to not be a dice-roll. You should be able to quickly determine, at a glance, whether your overlord is safe there or not. Besides, for everyone between serious amateur and not-quite-serral, Zerg is not doing great, so your other point is silly. But also completely irrelevant to the thread
How is that any different from Terrans and Protosses learning through trial and error the correct way to place buildings in order to effectively wall off choke points like they have to every season?
Eventually players will learn which pillars they can hide Overlords at and which ones they can't. This is just a natural process of learning the maps. Everyone has to do it for different reasons, there's no reason to make a thread complaining about it on TL.
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On April 10 2024 20:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 18:57 Ciaus237 wrote:On April 10 2024 18:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting. The point ---------------------------> . . . . . . . . . Your head The OP is not asking for more pillars - they are asking for pillars to not be a dice-roll. You should be able to quickly determine, at a glance, whether your overlord is safe there or not. Besides, for everyone between serious amateur and not-quite-serral, Zerg is not doing great, so your other point is silly. But also completely irrelevant to the thread How is that any different from Terrans and Protosses learning through trial and error the correct way to place buildings in order to effectively wall off choke points like they have to every season? Eventually players will learn which pillars they can hide Overlords at and which ones they can't. This is just a natural process of learning the maps. Everyone has to do it for different reasons, there's no reason to make a thread complaining about it on TL.
You have building grid for that
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On April 10 2024 20:09 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 18:57 Ciaus237 wrote:On April 10 2024 18:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting. The point ---------------------------> . . . . . . . . . Your head The OP is not asking for more pillars - they are asking for pillars to not be a dice-roll. You should be able to quickly determine, at a glance, whether your overlord is safe there or not. Besides, for everyone between serious amateur and not-quite-serral, Zerg is not doing great, so your other point is silly. But also completely irrelevant to the thread Reynor said it on stream perfectly--Serral picked (lol) the best time to enter military. Playing Zerg as a mere mortal on this amateur map-pool is an exercise in pure frustration. Maybe next season, instead of gimmicky chokes and rocks and gold bases everywhere, we can have a map where 1/2 are islands and we need to build transports!
Serral won the world championship without losing a single game outside of ZvZ. He would have been fine.
You can find clips of any player of any race complaining about the maps, it doesn't mean anything.
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On April 10 2024 20:24 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 20:09 Glorfindelio wrote:On April 10 2024 18:57 Ciaus237 wrote:On April 10 2024 18:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting. The point ---------------------------> . . . . . . . . . Your head The OP is not asking for more pillars - they are asking for pillars to not be a dice-roll. You should be able to quickly determine, at a glance, whether your overlord is safe there or not. Besides, for everyone between serious amateur and not-quite-serral, Zerg is not doing great, so your other point is silly. But also completely irrelevant to the thread Reynor said it on stream perfectly--Serral picked (lol) the best time to enter military. Playing Zerg as a mere mortal on this amateur map-pool is an exercise in pure frustration. Maybe next season, instead of gimmicky chokes and rocks and gold bases everywhere, we can have a map where 1/2 are islands and we need to build transports! Serral won the world championship without losing a single game outside of ZvZ. He would have been fine. You can find clips of any player of any race complaining about the maps, it doesn't mean anything.
Yes btw Serral despite his quality and his skill clearly has an advantage due to creep vision. Since now 14 years
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On April 10 2024 17:17 zatic wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but the pillars from your example are the same height and give the same protection from vision.
The only difference is that the opponent can get vision with a ground unit from the (higher ground) triangle third base.
This really isn't a problem. By the time a third base is established XvZ has an air unit anyway to spot for overlords. And early game your Ovi is safe enough. Should a Terran be hell bent on sending marines to that particular pillar you can always fly past the golden wall, and there is even a safe pillar closer to the opponent base.
Plus it's obvious why the pillar is "unsafe" with the high ground nearby.
If you look at the reddit link, on Alcyone, it is the base that is directly south west of the "1x65blue" label. On that, the left pillar is safe, but the right pillar isn't safe-these are the pillars I included in my picture. They're the same height and everything. The point you are making about timings isn't relevant-SC2 players simply shouldn't have to gamble on which pillars are safe and which aren't.
How is that any different from Terrans and Protosses learning through trial and error the correct way to place buildings in order to effectively wall off choke points like they have to every season?
Eventually players will learn which pillars they can hide Overlords at and which ones they can't. This is just a natural process of learning the maps. Everyone has to do it for different reasons, there's no reason to make a thread complaining about it on TL.
It's different because Protoss and Terran have consistent visual indicators on how to Sim City. This is not an apt comparison. If Terran and Protoss had to deal with the same BS as fake pillars, mapmakers would give you two options to take a third: And one of those options you can't actually wall off because of some bullshit invisible terrain. So if you take the wrong third base, your gateway magically won't fit because of the terrain and you're shit out of luck when you get ling flooded.
I don't want to win a ZvP because the mapmakers made their map inconsistent and impossible to tell for Protoss where to wall, and I gain 25 mmr because of a stupid game mechanic.
I don't want to win a ZvT because my opponent lost his reaper because he entered my base through the ramp, and then found out the reaper ledge indicator was FAKE, he couldn't escape and died to my lings.
And Similarly, I don't want to win PvZ or PvT because my opponent gets screwed over by more nonsensical game mechanics.
There's just no reason for fake pillars to exist.
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Speaking of island bases, why not re-implement them?
If Zergs are favored on big macro maps (which are exciting for SC2 and help spread the gameplay out more and force you to split units more), then why not have things like island bases to help Terran/Protoss establish map presence in a far away area?
Besides, Zerg has Nydus worms which have been buffed to be way cheaper and more useful since 2011. It shouldn't be disadvantageous for there to be island maps. Zerg also has drop overlords.
If it's too good, you could make the island bases have more ground around the base so that it's harder to cover the whole perimeter with your defenses.
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It's not ideal but the pillar's primary purpose in my mind is to delineate to the player the "top" and "bottom" side of the mineral wall, not to be an overlord pillar. It would be nice if the yellow hologram doodad (the circular yellow thing in the center of it) had some colour change or indicator like fire or something to tell you if the ovie was safe or not. But realistically it's not that big a deal, especially because Zergs can literally traverse to the other side of the gold mineral wall to be 100% safe in early stages
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Zurich15363 Posts
On April 11 2024 06:17 sidasf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 17:17 zatic wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but the pillars from your example are the same height and give the same protection from vision.
The only difference is that the opponent can get vision with a ground unit from the (higher ground) triangle third base.
This really isn't a problem. By the time a third base is established XvZ has an air unit anyway to spot for overlords. And early game your Ovi is safe enough. Should a Terran be hell bent on sending marines to that particular pillar you can always fly past the golden wall, and there is even a safe pillar closer to the opponent base.
Plus it's obvious why the pillar is "unsafe" with the high ground nearby. If you look at the reddit link, on Alcyone, it is the base that is directly south west of the "1x65blue" label. On that, the left pillar is safe, but the right pillar isn't safe-these are the pillars I included in my picture. They're the same height and everything. The point you are making about timings isn't relevant-SC2 players simply shouldn't have to gamble on which pillars are safe and which aren't. There's just no reason for fake pillars to exist.
If it's really fake as in provides no cover even without high ground vision I would agree. But then that's the only example from the current map pool and it's again not really a problem since it's in the middle of the map and there are 2 safe pillars right next to it.
You seem to be dead set on a problem that really isn't a problem in Starcraft 2.
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On April 10 2024 10:20 lokol4890 wrote:
Easy fix, map makers shouldn't put any overlord pillars in any maps
Agreed 100%.
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On April 10 2024 18:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting.
says the terran on the most favorable Terran map pool ever ...
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Serral won the world championship without losing a single game outside of ZvZ. He would have been fine.
You missed the point entirely, the reason Reynor is happy that Serral goes into military is because Serral is so unbelievably strong (and the GOAT, yeah, you guys are wrong to have put that dude Miz doing that list instead of a concensus of various gamers, it was just plain wrong), that HE is the reason Zerg is and have been getting nerfed.
To the point that Balance council has not only been nerfing Zerg but now are just putting anti zerg maps to try and make it not so Serral dominated.
So Reynor's hoping that trend will change with Serral gone ...
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On April 11 2024 20:02 CerebrateHector wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 18:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting. says the terran on the most favorable Terran map pool ever ...
You should look at 2016 
On April 11 2024 20:07 CerebrateHector wrote:Show nested quote +Serral won the world championship without losing a single game outside of ZvZ. He would have been fine. You missed the point entirely, the reason Reynor is happy that Serral goes into military is because Serral is so unbelievably strong (and the GOAT, yeah, you guys are wrong to have put that dude Miz doing that list instead of a concensus of various gamers, it was just plain wrong), that HE is the reason Zerg is and have been getting nerfed. To the point that Balance council has not only been nerfing Zerg but now are just putting anti zerg maps to try and make it not so Serral dominated. So Reynor's hoping that trend will change with Serral gone ...
Yep it's just Serral, Reynor, Dark, soO, Elazer, Lambo, Scarlett, Rogue... it's not zerg guys!
And yes, the opinion of players and casters that are friends with Serral is honestly not more valuable than that of Mizenhauer's. "All time" to them started in 2018.
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On April 11 2024 20:07 CerebrateHector wrote:Show nested quote +Serral won the world championship without losing a single game outside of ZvZ. He would have been fine. You missed the point entirely, the reason Reynor is happy that Serral goes into military is because Serral is so unbelievably strong (and the GOAT, yeah, you guys are wrong to have put that dude Miz doing that list instead of a concensus of various gamers, it was just plain wrong), that HE is the reason Zerg is and have been getting nerfed. To the point that Balance council has not only been nerfing Zerg but now are just putting anti zerg maps to try and make it not so Serral dominated. So Reynor's hoping that trend will change with Serral gone ...
What do you mean by concensus gamer? I didn't agree Serral should be on no.1, but rather no.3. He should be placed after Rogue. Sorry about that.
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Having an RNG element to pillar protection would be an interesting mechanic in and of itself. High risk / high reward. Generally speaking, I don't think watch towers or natty spy pillars belong in SC at all... but that's a separate thread.
As to the OP, everyone already gave the answer. By the time pros play any meaningful matches on these maps, they will have already learned which pillars do or do not offer protection regardless of appearance.
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On April 10 2024 18:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting.
No that would be terran. Terran has the best scouting with free scan and free depot
In before people come in and say “it cost minerals!!”
No it doesn’t, it cost terran the “opportunity” to mine more minerals but it doesn’t actually cost anything, just energy.
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On October 06 2024 11:32 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 18:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
No. Zergs have gotten far too complacent in having map makers cater for their desire to have free and unpunished scouting information over the course of the entire game. You already have creep, and you already have access to the best scouting units in the game in the Overseer and Zergling. You don't need any help from the maps to help with your scouting. No that would be terran. Terran has the best scouting with free scan and free depot In before people come in and say “it cost minerals!!” No it doesn’t, it cost terran the “opportunity” to mine more minerals but it doesn’t actually cost anything, just energy.
literally 3k take
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This is good observation about inconsistent pillar mechanics in StarCraft II; & I completely agree. Having safe & unsafe pillars that look identical creates unnecessary confusion & frustration for players; especially in competitive environments where clear visual cues are crucial for decision-making.
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Northern Ireland26359 Posts
On October 06 2024 08:43 tskarzyn wrote:
Having an RNG element to pillar protection would be an interesting mechanic in and of itself. High risk / high reward. Generally speaking, I don't think watch towers or natty spy pillars belong in SC at all... but that's a separate thread.
As to the OP, everyone already gave the answer. By the time pros play any meaningful matches on these maps, they will have already learned which pillars do or do not offer protection regardless of appearance.
Outside of games like deliberately insanely hard platformers, having assets being so ambiguous is just inviting frustration.
Playing I Wanna Be The Guy as an ode to masochism with your buddies, dodge 5 falling apples only for the 6th to randomly fly up at you and kill you, it’s quite fun within that specific kind of context. Battling just to get to the next screen in a game deliberately designed to fuck you over, quite fun if you know that’s the deal.
Or sleight of hand in a puzzle game or a point and click, sure that’s fine. It makes sense for designers to be sneaky in those contexts.
In the SC2 context, which of these seemingly identical features grants safety and which doesn’t? Better trial and error it either on ladder or a test map isn’t intuitive, nor is it fun like those other examples because RTS games rely on predictable behaviours in a multiplayer context.
As for the wider pillar question in general, I feel it’s just in a pretty bad spot where safe pillars are too good for Z scouting, but the lack of them is perhaps too bad. Which makes finding a middle ground kind of tricky.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/T7eCKkk.png)
