EPTThis time around we have on someone who's career goes so far beyond just StarCraft. Starting out in FPS titles like Quake and Counter Strike, before bringing his journalistic talents to titles like LoL, and SC2, among others, over the years. Duncan "Thorin" Shields is one of the most outspoken, yet respected and experienced voices in the Esports world. With all the GOAT debating that has been flying around the StarCraft commununity, I figured an outside, yet familiar perspective is just what we needed. Thorin gave me his full attention and loads of his time, so please, watch, enjoy, and let me know what you all think! If you like it, be sure to tune in for part 2!
Thorin: Sorry Serral Fans GSL is the Gold Standard
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StarcraftHistorian
United States154 Posts
This time around we have on someone who's career goes so far beyond just StarCraft. Starting out in FPS titles like Quake and Counter Strike, before bringing his journalistic talents to titles like LoL, and SC2, among others, over the years. Duncan "Thorin" Shields is one of the most outspoken, yet respected and experienced voices in the Esports world. With all the GOAT debating that has been flying around the StarCraft commununity, I figured an outside, yet familiar perspective is just what we needed. Thorin gave me his full attention and loads of his time, so please, watch, enjoy, and let me know what you all think! If you like it, be sure to tune in for part 2! | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
When the entire league of players have a negative (often lopsided) h2h record against this one player for years, he just doesn't need to compete in such league to prove himself anymore. Just like Maru doesn't need any WCS NA title to prove himself. Some people like to point to Reynor's lack of results in GSL, but if you dig a bit into it you will find that Reynor's h2h record against almost every single top Korean hovers around 50%, while Serral's numbers are consistently around 70-90% (as seem in Mizenhauer's article), there's quite a substantial gap between him and Serral in terms of how they perform against Korean players. So not having GSL success is an argument against Reynor, but not Serral. It's simple math. | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2719 Posts
On March 19 2024 00:28 Nasigil wrote: GSL is gold standard unless it's involved in discussion about Serral. When the entire league of players have a negative (often lopsided) h2h record against this one player for years, he just doesn't need to compete in such league to prove himself anymore. Just like Maru doesn't need any WCS NA title to prove himself. Some people like to point to Reynor's lack of results in GSL, but if you dig a bit into it you will find that Reynor's h2h record against almost every single top Korean hovers around 50%, while Serral's numbers are consistently around 70-90% (as seem in Mizenhauer's article), there's quite a substantial gap between him and Serral in terms of how they perform against Korean players. So not having GSL success is an argument against Reynor, but not Serral. It's simple math. In terms of style I find Serral more similar to a stronger Neeb, and Neeb got to Top 4 in GSL on his first try in 2018, so I wouldn't have been surprised if Serral Royal Road'd GSL since his rise in 2018. | ||
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lokol4890
114 Posts
On March 19 2024 00:28 Nasigil wrote: GSL is gold standard unless it's involved in discussion about Serral. When the entire league of players have a negative (often lopsided) h2h record against this one player for years, he just doesn't need to compete in such league to prove himself anymore. Just like Maru doesn't need any WCS NA title to prove himself. Some people like to point to Reynor's lack of results in GSL, but if you dig a bit into it you will find that Reynor's h2h record against almost every single top Korean hovers around 50%, while Serral's numbers are consistently around 70-90% (as seem in Mizenhauer's article), there's quite a substantial gap between him and Serral in terms of how they perform against Korean players. So not having GSL success is an argument against Reynor, but not Serral. It's simple math. Always find it funny that based on liquipedia, serral has a losing record against rogue. Weird how no one ever mentions that | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 19 2024 00:28 Nasigil wrote: GSL is gold standard unless it's involved in discussion about Serral. When the entire league of players have a negative (often lopsided) h2h record against this one player for years, he just doesn't need to compete in such league to prove himself anymore. Just like Maru doesn't need any WCS NA title to prove himself. sOs has as many World Championship titles as Serral and never won GSL. Rogue won every international tournament he entered for almost a year straight, and still took nearly 20 attempts to bag GSL. It's a different format of tournament, players skill peak is higher in Starleagues than weekend tournaments because they can practice one matchup and plan a series for a week in advance. Just because Serral wins international tournaments doesn't guarantee he would win GSL. And even if it did, he never actually did it. If Maru had never played in World Championships, you'd be saying he would have clearly won several... | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On March 19 2024 01:20 Fango wrote: sOs has as many World Championship titles as Serral and never won GSL. Rogue won every international tournament he entered for almost a year straight, and still took nearly 20 attempts to bag GSL. It's a different format of tournament, players skill peak is higher in Starleagues than weekend tournaments because they can practice one matchup and plan a series for a week in advance. Just because Serral wins international tournaments doesn't guarantee he would win GSL. And even if it did, he never actually did it. If Maru had never played in World Championships, you'd be saying he would have clearly won several... I don't think he'd say that. WCS > GSL. It's a world championship with lots more money and glory than a regional qualifier to the WCS. Serral is winning the biggest tournaments and has a very dominant H2H vs top pros. Like he said, Maru doesn't need to prove himself at WCS NA. However, he does need to prove that he can win a WC, which is above a GSL. Serral proves he can win WCs and international premieres that he enters, including KR tournaments like GSL vs the World. You can extrapolate that he would do very well in GSL from that, but not the other way with Maru. It's true that sOs is a weird case in that he did well at WCs but not as well at GSL. But that doesn't make the WC easier to win or less presitigious than a GSL. While you shouldn't penalize players too much for attempting to compete in more tournaments (at the cost of them risking poor performances that can stain their career), what we have seen is that Maru does well in Starleagues, but struggles (for his skill) at WCs. With Serral, we've seen he does well in all tournaments that he enters. Sure there's no proof that he can win a GSL until he does it, but his portfolio doesn't have the stains that Maru has. If Maru can't win a WC after we see him try many times, we shouldn't be penalizing Serral for not proving he can win a GSL more hard than Maru's proven failures. | ||
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Harstem
Netherlands263 Posts
On March 19 2024 01:03 lokol4890 wrote: Always find it funny that based on liquipedia, serral has a losing record against rogue. Weird how no one ever mentions that No one also ever seems to mention Harstem's winning record against serral. Maybe because it isn't true or maybe because the mainstream media is trying to push a pro serral narrative. EDIT: No one probably mentions it because it isn't true. | ||
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darklycid
3519 Posts
On March 19 2024 02:34 Harstem wrote: No one also ever seems to mention Harstem's winning record against serral. Maybe because it isn't true or maybe because the mainstream media is trying to push a pro serral narrative. EDIT: No one probably mentions it because it isn't true. I will fight for your winning record anyways my captain. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4230 Posts
Still feels like Serral has the upper hand, ever if extremely slightly, over Maru and Rogue. Great interview, nonetheless. Thorin is definitely one of the best (and spiciest) minds to ever work in e-sports. | ||
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lokol4890
114 Posts
On March 19 2024 02:34 Harstem wrote: No one also ever seems to mention Harstem's winning record against serral. Maybe because it isn't true or maybe because the mainstream media is trying to push a pro serral narrative. EDIT: No one probably mentions it because it isn't true. 13 series on a 6-7 split in favor of Rogue. What series are they missing that they've played?  Special:RunQuery/Match history?title=Special%3ARunQuery%2FMatch history&Head to head query=player%3DSerral&pfRunQueryFormName=Match+history&Head+to+head+query%5Bplayer%5D=Serral&Head+to+head+query%5Bopponent%5D=Rogue&Head+to+head+query%5Bopponentcountry%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bgame%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bltier%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bsdate%5D%5Bday%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bsdate%5D%5Bmonth%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bsdate%5D%5Byear%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bedate%5D%5Bday%5D=18&Head+to+head+query%5Bedate%5D%5Bmonth%5D=03&Head+to+head+query%5Bedate%5D%5Byear%5D=2024&Head+to+head+query%5Bwalkover%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bmatchups%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bmaps%5D=&wpRunQuery=&pf free text= | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On March 19 2024 03:14 lokol4890 wrote: 13 series on a 6-7 split in favor of Rogue. What series are they missing that they've played? Special:RunQuery/Match history?title=Special%3ARunQuery%2FMatch history&Head to head query=player%3DSerral&pfRunQueryFormName=Match+history&Head+to+head+query%5Bplayer%5D=Serral&Head+to+head+query%5Bopponent%5D=Rogue&Head+to+head+query%5Bopponentcountry%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bgame%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bltier%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bsdate%5D%5Bday%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bsdate%5D%5Bmonth%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bsdate%5D%5Byear%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bedate%5D%5Bday%5D=18&Head+to+head+query%5Bedate%5D%5Bmonth%5D=03&Head+to+head+query%5Bedate%5D%5Byear%5D=2024&Head+to+head+query%5Bwalkover%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bmatchups%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bmaps%5D=&wpRunQuery=&pf free text=Aligulac has them listed, here, it tends to be more reliable than Liquipedia these days. Rogue’s got a pretty decent record there overall. If you filter just for offline Serral stomps him, but this isn’t super fair on Rogue as it removes meaningful games from the Covid-induced online era | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2719 Posts
On March 19 2024 03:14 lokol4890 wrote: 13 series on a 6-7 split in favor of Rogue. What series are they missing that they've played? Special:RunQuery/Match history?title=Special%3ARunQuery%2FMatch history&Head to head query=player%3DSerral&pfRunQueryFormName=Match+history&Head+to+head+query%5Bplayer%5D=Serral&Head+to+head+query%5Bopponent%5D=Rogue&Head+to+head+query%5Bopponentcountry%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bgame%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bltier%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bsdate%5D%5Bday%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bsdate%5D%5Bmonth%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bsdate%5D%5Byear%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bedate%5D%5Bday%5D=18&Head+to+head+query%5Bedate%5D%5Bmonth%5D=03&Head+to+head+query%5Bedate%5D%5Byear%5D=2024&Head+to+head+query%5Bwalkover%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bmatchups%5D=&Head+to+head+query%5Bmaps%5D=&wpRunQuery=&pf free text=Too bad Rogue has never been able to beat Serral in an in person offline tournament. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1250 Posts
Seriously though: I didn't even know Thorin had anything to do with Starcraft. Which doesn't surprise me, considering that I barely follow anything he does. I think he had this "cool streak" when he just tried to be the biggest controversy hog there is in Counterstrike and LoL, which in my book usually registers as "stay the F away, not an expert". (And while I know people won't believe me: The exact same thing holds up if he said anything else.) | ||
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lokol4890
114 Posts
On March 19 2024 03:44 WombaT wrote: Aligulac has them listed, here, it tends to be more reliable than Liquipedia these days. Rogue’s got a pretty decent record there overall. If you filter just for offline Serral stomps him, but this isn’t super fair on Rogue as it removes meaningful games from the Covid-induced online era Counting 15 on aligulac vs the 13 on liquipedia. Is it the team league matches the two matches that liquipedia missed? E: ty for the link btw | ||
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TaKeTV
Germany1200 Posts
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Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
On March 19 2024 04:59 TaKeTV wrote: It WAS the gold standard. It isnt now IMO and hasnt been for several years There is no gold standard now, IMO | ||
Poopi
France12907 Posts
Unfortunately this, there are barely 16 top players in the entire scene left. It’s still in those WCs like events (Katowice and the SA thingy that Reynor won) that the overall level is highest nowadays though, whereas in the past (probably before Covid era?) WCs and GSL were of same difficulty | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Not that Thorin needs a huge amount of prompting to be good value but you did certainly did contribute to making this yet another fine listen | ||
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StarcraftHistorian
United States154 Posts
On March 19 2024 02:34 Harstem wrote: No one also ever seems to mention Harstem's winning record against serral. Maybe because it isn't true or maybe because the mainstream media is trying to push a pro serral narrative. EDIT: No one probably mentions it because it isn't true. The corporate elite are always trying to push Big Serral! | ||
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StarcraftHistorian
United States154 Posts
On March 19 2024 06:55 WombaT wrote: I mean discussion is focusing on that throwaway Serral/gold standard line but got round to having the full listen. Not that Thorin needs a huge amount of prompting to be good value but you did certainly did contribute to making this yet another fine listen <3 Appreciate this! | ||
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