On January 05 2023 20:29 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Anyone know what the mod with current considered changes is called?
5.0.11 BalanceTest, I believe
Most players will simply never reach a level where playing against carriers is a vaguely even affair.
Most players will simply never reach a level where playing against any number of units is fair.
Widow Mines are unfair at lower levels, but you can always get better.
Lurkers are unfair at lower levels, but you can always get better.
Etc.
I think there are two main differences with carriers.
Firstly, the matter of degree. Carriers are incredibly strong with literal a-move. Even very a-movey units like roaches and zealots will do dumb stuff like funnel through tight spaces or ball up on things if they aren't controlled at all (most of these a-move units also have straightforward counters that aren't too much harder to control than they themselves are).
The second is the way in which you can make them the centre of your composition so safely and just sit. Making mines or lurkers effective generally requires actually interacting with your opponent. Carrier balls just get stronger and stronger with time and less things happening and put the opponent on a clock to make the game winnable. The most effective way of fighting them if you are up for trying to (substantially) outplay your opponent involves making ****loads of spores or turrets. Fun.
There's a reason the old team seriously considered just removing these units outright.
On January 05 2023 12:44 [Phantom] wrote: I have an honest to God plea for the balance council.
Don't ruin the relatively ok balance that we have in the search for something that "would be cool to have". The game balance is in a relatively good state. There are a few problematic units and strategies, focus on fixing those issues, and not in changes that would be cool to have but don't serve balance.
What I mean:
It would be cool to see more micreable hydras, but that buff in what is basically a core unit could have a lot of consequences specially since the Hydra is already used effectively. It's not necessary at all for the balance of the game at the moment.
i totally, 100%, abso-posi-lutely agree with this perspective.
LoL stalkers or hydralisks, which one deserve a buff ?....
On January 05 2023 12:44 [Phantom] wrote: What I mean:
It would be cool to see more micreable hydras, but that buff in what is basically a core unit could have a lot of consequences specially since the Hydra is already used effectively. It's not necessary at all for the balance of the game at the moment.
It's not a core unit. The entire unit is a meme. Making hydras is largely considered the wrong move in every situation. The only reason you make the unit is to turn them into lurkers.
On January 05 2023 12:44 [Phantom] wrote: What I mean:
It would be cool to see more micreable hydras, but that buff in what is basically a core unit could have a lot of consequences specially since the Hydra is already used effectively. It's not necessary at all for the balance of the game at the moment.
It's not a core unit. The entire unit is a meme. Making hydras is largely considered the wrong move in every situation. The only reason you make the unit is to turn them into lurkers.
How is that a core unit?
Hydra-ling-bane is the most common mid-game unit composition in TvZ and has been for months. Zergs often don't even bother transitioning to lurkers because continued pressure can win games outright (and denies any potential ghost transition from Terran).
The actual meme is pretending hydras are weak and deserve a buff.
On January 05 2023 12:44 [Phantom] wrote: What I mean:
It would be cool to see more micreable hydras, but that buff in what is basically a core unit could have a lot of consequences specially since the Hydra is already used effectively. It's not necessary at all for the balance of the game at the moment.
It's not a core unit. The entire unit is a meme. Making hydras is largely considered the wrong move in every situation. The only reason you make the unit is to turn them into lurkers.
How is that a core unit?
Hydra-ling-bane is the most common mid-game unit composition in TvZ and has been for months. Zergs often don't even bother transitioning to lurkers because continued pressure can win games outright (and denies any potential ghost transition from Terran).
The actual meme is pretending hydras are weak and deserve a buff.
Same with Ultras, Zerg players always complain that they are to weak but I still see them every other ZvT. I mean sure, there are stronger units than Hydras and Ultras. But if we say Hydras and Ultras need a buff because they are underused, we could make this case for at least 10 other units in the game.
In pro play I see Hydralisks 10+ times more often than I see Thors or BCs. It might be not _the_ core unit like marine or stalker are, but it's certainly very far away from being a niche one.
A lot of people are making arguments for the original PTR notes which no longer apply.. Current balance test mod shows these notes (Note the Ultra/Hydra buffs were toned down, Raven reworked again, lib cost reduction, etc):
Versus
Worker Units No longer need to wait for full deceleration before beginning to attack
ZERG Creep Tumor Cooldown increased from 10.71 to 13.57 seconds Sight range reduced from 11 to 10
Hatchery, Lair, Hive Creep spread interval decreased from 0.3 to 0.25 accelerating the spread Sight range increased from 10,11,12 to 12
Viper After Abduct the Viper can not move or use abilities for 0.71 seconds
Ultralisk Reduced size by 12.5% Increased extra range before an ongoing attack cancels from 1 to 1.25 (This affects how far the attack target can move away before the Ultralisk's ongoing attack is canceled. The range to begin an attack is unchanged)
Hydralisk Muscular Augments move speed bonus off Creep increased from 0.79 to 1.05. The speed on Creep remains unchanged at 5.12 Damage point reduced from 0.15 to 0.1 (This is the time between the attack begun and the attack's effect starts. Reducing it allows more time for movement in between attacks)
Brood Lord Move speed increased from 1.97 to 2.24 Duration of spawned Broodlings reduced from 5.71 to 3.57
Ravager Build time increased from 8.57 to 12.14 seconds and removed the random delay of up to 0.36 seconds
PROTOSS Shield Battery Battery Overcharge shield recharge rate bonus reduced from 100% to 50%. This reduces the total shields recharged from 1440 to 1080
Observer Move speed increased from 2.63 to 2.82 Gravitic Boosters move speed bonus raised to remain a 50% increase Model size increased by 10%. This only affects its visual size
Archon Reduced collision radius with structures from 0.75 to 0.56 to allow traversal of 1 tile wide gaps between buildings
High Templar Move speed increased from 2.63 to 2.82
Disruptor Purification Nova's radius reduced from 1.5 to 1.35
Carrier Interceptor attack target priority reduced from 20 to 19. Attackers now prioritize other units over Interceptors
Sentry Build time reduced from 26.4 to 22.9 seconds Move speed increased from 3.15 to 3.5
Forge Level 1 upgrades research time reduced by 7.1 seconds to 121.4 Level 2 upgrades research time reduced by 8.9 seconds to 144.6 Level 3 upgrades research time reduced by 10.7 seconds to 167.9
TERRAN
Viking (Fighter Mode) Damage point reduced from 0.12 to 0.04
Liberator Cost reduced from 150/150 to 150/125
Ghost Enhanced Shockwaves upgrade removed EMP radius increased from 1.5 to 1.75 Steady Targeting is canceled if the target moves more than 13.5 range away from the Ghost while casting. The cast range remains at 10 Steady Targeting can now be manually canceled
Banshee Hyperflight Rotors research time reduced from 121.4 to 100 seconds Hyperflight Rotors cost reduced from 150/150 to 125/125
Cyclone Mag-Field Accelerator damage bonus changed from +20 vs armored to +10 vs all Lock on will now prioritize Air Units if they have an anti-ground attack
Sensor Tower Radar range reduced from 30 to 27
Raven Gas cost reduced from 200 to 150 Build time reduced from 42.9 to 30 seconds Corvid Reactor upgrade removed Anti-Armor Missile armor reduction reduced from 3 to 2 Anti-Armor Missile's tint color is now brighter (from 255,100,0 to 255,153,85) Auto Turret duration reduced from 10.0 to 7.8 seconds Auto Turret health reduced from 150 to 100 Auto Turret armor reduced from 1 to 0 Auto Turret is no longer affected by Neosteel Armor
MISC BUG FIXES / QOL CHANGES
All Units Follow acquire range reduced from 5 to 2 (While following an allied unit through a move or right click command, the following unit will switch from moving to attacking nearby enemies when within this range. This is changed as moving is the expected behavior)
Banshee First missile is no longer delayed by 0.11 seconds after attack completes (Previously the Banshee could even start moving away before the first missile was launched. The second missile will also be 0.11 seconds faster, as there remains a 0.11 second gap between the 2 missiles)
Dark Templar Shadow Stride attack delay reduced from 0.75 to 0.71 seconds
Factory Increase maximum spawn radius by 1
Widow Mine Reduced random unburrow/burrow delay from 0.36 seconds to 0.18 seconds. The average time remains the same No longer targets Zerg Cocoons without a manual order No longer targets units affected by Neural Parasite without a manual order. This behavior is now consistent with other units
Cyclone Fixed an issue where Lock On could enter cooldown while the Cyclone is loaded into a Medivac Lock On no longer targets Zerg Cocoons without a manual order
Shield Battery Fixed an issue where repeatedly issuing a Stop command could increase Restore's shield regeneration rate Fixed an issue where animation models created snapshots in fog Fixed tooltip not scaling values to the game speed
Adept Fixed an issue where Adepts could not be ordered to cancel the Shade ability when selected with Adepts who are warping in Can now be ordered to load into a Warp Prism while shading, automatically cancelling the Shade
Queen Fixed an issue where initial Creep Tumors could be canceled. No longer unable to receive certain orders for 0.6 seconds after spawning
Lurker Reduced random unburrow delay from 0.36 seconds to 0.18 seconds. The average time remains the same Attacks will no longer be blocked by certain low ground terrain features Fixed an issue where units loaded into transports could be damaged
Hydralisk Now has the same attack cooldown and attack animation speed with attacks at melee and range (Previously melee attacks had a longer animation and shorter cooldown) Fixed an issue where Morph to Lurker would be canceled with a Smart command issued immediately after the Morph command Removed Morph to Lurker random delay and added average delay to base build time
Stasis Ward Attack target priority increased from 10 to 20. Attackers will no longer prioritize other units over a Stasis Ward. Now they are prioritized equally Stasised Units can now queue gather orders
Raven Fixed an issue where units affected by Interference Matrix could not be issued Stop commands Fixed an issue where units affected by Interference Matrix would walk forward below their Attack range when given Attack Move commands Interference Matrix now pauses Immortal Barrier cooldown for the correct amount of time (5.7 -> 7.9 seconds)
Swarm Host Spawn Locusts no longer interrupts the current order
Hatchery, Lair, Hive Subgroup priority changed from Hatchery > Lair > Hive to Hive > Lair > Hatchery
General Fixed an issue where MULE could be cast targeting Refineries close to Command Centers Fixed an unintended behavior being displayed on Nydus Worms Fixed an issue where Mutalisk’s attack launch sound would play each time the attack bounced Fixed an issue where Morph to Ravager would be canceled with a Smart command issued immediately after the Morph command Fixed an issue where Morph to Lurker would be canceled with a Smart command issued immediately after the Morph command Fixed an issue where Zerglings could not receive queued Morph to Baneling commands Fixed an issue where Zerglings and Swarm Hosts could not be given commands while unburrowing Fixed an issue where Liberators could not be given certain orders immediately after being ordered to unsiege Fixed an issue where Thor in High Impact Payload mode would not collide with Locusts Fixed an issue with the attack animation of the Thor when using the Tyrador skin Fixed a variety of incorrect Upgrade and Unit scores (How much ‘score’ you get should equal the combined resource cost) Fixed an issue where certain flying units/buildings did not cause water ripples when flying over water. Standardized the height at which an air unit will cause water ripples Fixed an issue where simultaneously using Mass Recall (Mothership) and Strategic Recall (Nexus) could move the recalled units to an incorrect location Fixed an issue where Ravager's Corrosive Bile animation would override Burrow animation Fixed Shield Battery Restore not showing its range when interacting with the UI Fixed an issue where changing warp in speed did not change the animation's speed Fixed an issue where Shield Battery's auto-cast targeted Dark Shrine Fixed an issue where Reapers threw KD8 Charges with the wrong hand Fixed an issue where Changelings would permanently switch sides after Neural Parasite. Neural Parasite now disables the morph Fixed an issue where burrowed Swarm Hosts and Ravagers collided with burrowed Movers. Roaches now change their collision after researching Tunneling Claws
TL;DR version is: He thinks it's Zerg favored and he agrees that the tumor cooldown nerf, broodling duration nerfs, and viper abduct nerfs are largely inconsequential. So yeah, prepare for another year of Zergs dunking on everyone if nothing changes.
Before they think about buffing Hydralisks and Ultras cus it would be cool if they can be better, how about:
1) Increase Zealot+Adept collision size with buildings, so that pro Protoss players stop being 1 pixel off and losing to a ling flood. 2) Look at all the other units that are truly underused, not units that are in a good spot and have weaknesses so that you don't mass them too much (Ultras are big, Hydras are a bit slow). 3) Nerfing Lurkers vs Protoss so that Protoss has more ground options, especially since they want to nerf Disruptors and Disruptors are one of the main ways a ground army deals with Lurkers. 4) Giving Sentry an actual damage buff from 6 to 10 or even 8, so we can buff Gateway army strength slightly. 5) Slowing down Zerg macro ever so slightly by reverting Spore root duration to be a couple seconds longer, so Zerg might want to build 3 Spores for their first 3 Hatches instead of skimping and building only 2. This also makes mass Spores lategame a little less good. 6) Heck you could nerf Queen max energy to 150 or something so they aren't as massable and have a little less energy lategame. I mean, if we're trying to nerf Carriers, Ravens, Ghosts, etc., cus we don't want to see those units spammed, then why not address the elephant in the room? Why is there 0 Zerg lategame nerfs? (Other than Viper which won't help much).
There are so so many other things that are more glaring issues than "oh wouldn't it be COOL if this unit that was already used a lot in every MU is even COOLER?". And if we're going with finding things that are cool, how about we target units that are actually underutilized, like buffing the Cyclone and not making it weaker vs the things it was actually useful for?
I 100% agree with Phantom, 13 years into a game, RIGHT when the SC2 balance team ironed out pretty much all the kinks you could hope for, every race has lots of viable or situational unit comps, balance is good, etc... they want a patch that changes the DESIGN of things?? And then what, we patch things again over the next few years again?
It feels like we're getting further and further away from the goal. What the fuck are these Raven changes seriously. Why are they nerfing Auto Turret duration and durability, the problem is that a high DPS turret shouldn't be a thing period because otherwise we have the issue we have now where Ravens can kill armies on their own, and the original SC2 team knew this, the Raven was only reworked like this after David Kim left. It seems like they have completely forgotten why the high dps Turret was a thing in the first place, and it was simply to try to incentivize players to get 1 Raven early for detection and be more active with it, and they liked the idea of Auto Turret killing 4 workers if they don't look for 2 seconds.
And the resulting side effect is that Ravens can kill armies on their own, so fix the DPS. Not by decreasing the duration (which weakens its harass ability early game, since the counterplay is to just pull workers away anyways regardless of DPS), or by decreasing the durability (which makes it less useful for positional play, and less useful for Mech). You fix it by lowering the DPS closer to what it was way back then, and compensate by making it last a few more seconds, so that it can still harass by making the opponent pull workers off the mineral line for a bit, but it also gives the option to kill the Turret at the cost of taking less damage than before.
Zergs specialty is making the case that every single unit they have sucks. Been their go to since release
Really hoping the ptr changes dont go through anytime soon. Would much rather we just remain on the current patch until they figure out the right direction by tinkering on the ptr and not just change for the sake of change
On January 06 2023 07:59 Moonerz wrote: Zergs specialty is making the case that every single unit they have sucks
Yeah, remember that Harstem's video where him, Lambo and Scarlett did the ranking of all units?
Lambo and Sasha said that basically very zerg unit is not so good, 3/5 or so. Including lurkers which is "C tier". And corruptors were called "really bad" if I remember correctly.
According to them, Zerg has only 6 units that are S/A/B tier. Everything else is C or worse. Terran has 8 of S/A/B, Protoss has 12 (!).
One can wonder how Zerg have won so much in last 5 years with such crappy units. But maybe what they meant was not the power level but more how good it feels to play.
Ragnarok recently won the WardiTV Christmas Invitational on the new balance patch and these are his thoughts from practicing privately and playing in this tournament.
Overall:
Terran does not have the power that it once had.
Zerg is much more sturdy/secure in midgame timings
Protoss, he doesn't know very much as he has less experience
Thinks that if T/P research a lot, the situation could change
Is ultimately satisfied with this patch, even though Terrans and Protosses might not be
Zerg:
Creep change, thought it would have a big impact, but cannot notice it at all while playing. Good nerf, bc maybe terran or protoss players could potentially notice the change. (Says that he beat Byun, Clem, and Time and couldn't feel the impact of this nerf in those games).
Vision change can be felt, thinks it is a good nerf
Viper nerf, people think that it can be felt, but honestly, Ragnarok doesn't notice this nerf very much. It prevents the instant 2 tank abduction though, so thinks it is a good nerf.
Ultralisk, thinks that it is much safer and better to use and almost campaign like. Thinks that it is a very useful buff when playing roach ling bane, but if you use hydra ling bane, it is better to go lurkers anyways. However, he worries that if the ultra buff goes through, Zerg will be completely OP because lurkers are strong anyways. (If the lurker is nerfed/reworked, then this is a great change).
Hydralisk, amazing really great change really really incredible buff, but one that he really likes. Thinks that hydralisks are going to be used earlier and a lot
Brood lord, felt the change a LOT. Thinks that the brood lord feels significantly faster, but is not that much faster so it is a good buff.
Broodling, honestly can't notice the difference a lot. Thinks that terrans could potentially push into zergs late game with thors at the amateur level (where spellcasters are not used as much) so could be a good change. At the pro level, he says that this broodling change will not be felt
Ravager, only matters in early game rushes
Protoss:
Shield battery, great patch, can be felt
Observer, change can be felt, wonders if it is too easy to see for terrans
High templar, insane buff, the templar doesn't lag behind, could make it hard to terrans to emp (in conjunction with the ghost nerf)
Disruptor, big nerf, but thinks that it is fair, says that because the ghost got nerfed, the disruptor should not be left as is and should be nerfed
Terran:
Ghost: insane nerf to EMP. If he has 8 infestors and he made a mistake, before the patch, Ragnarok would have all 8 infestors empd, but now, 2-3 still have energy, which makes it impossible for the terran to push in. Thinks that it is a great change because it can allow zergs to make a mistake that is not so punishing
Ghost: nerf to snipe. Says that he would be lying as a Zerg pro gamer to say that this patch is bad and cannot bring himself as a Zerg user to ask to rollback this patch. Does say that a LOT of terrans will complain because zerg mines more and chooses where to engage. This change affords zerg the ability to make more mistakes and still live. This change is good for zerg, and Ragnarok says that it feels bad to make one mistake and lose all units to a scan, but he says that he will not oppose it if this change does not go through.
Banshee: sucks no matter what
Cyclone: cyclone hellion is slightly stronger early game, but he and other pro gamers know how to hold this strategy so cyclone isn't that great (could work if the zerg doesn't know at all)
Sensor tower: huge nerf, can feel this change, but thinks that it is a good change, the old one was too OP. Late game, terran has unlimited scans anyways so it doesn't matter
Raven: no impact in TvZ. Significantly better to make a liberator, medivac or banshee (potentially could change with more research).
On January 06 2023 07:59 Moonerz wrote: Zergs specialty is making the case that every single unit they have sucks. Been their go to since release
Really hoping the ptr changes dont go through anytime soon. Would much rather we just remain on the current patch until they figure out the right direction by tinkering on the ptr and not just change for the sake of change
Hydras being a mainstay in TvZ for the last year and somehow zergs have convinced people they never make the unit and it needs buffing.
Same with ultras. They never actually went out of style and top zergs have been using them in ZvT for ages. Especially for run-bys in the late game.
Maybe the most popular EU pros/casters/streamers being zerg just gives them a bigger voice. Whoever is in charge of the changes just listens to the most successful group?
Ragnarok's opinions all seem valid. I am strongly affirmed in my belief that (with the weird Carrier stuff removed) the patch should be mostly fine with the exception of the Ghost Snipe nerf, which seems obviously balance-breaking and should in no way go through without other large changes to rebalance it out. If you undo that you can also undo the Disruptor nerf (or again buff surrounding things in response), which also seems unnecessary and annoying, though less game-breaking.
People up-thread are getting mad at the patch for changing things at all and negatively affecting the balance. I don't entirely disagree, as I'm fine with a static game and do think the balance is as good as it has ever been. But idk, there is also something to be said for shaking up the meta-game a bit from time to time, and doing it mostly through QoL sort of buffs is an interesting approach going forward. I am not yet for joining the rebellion against the new balance regime.
On January 06 2023 10:56 Captain Peabody wrote: Ragnarok's opinions all seem valid. I am strongly affirmed in my belief that (with the weird Carrier stuff removed) the patch should be mostly fine with the exception of the Ghost Snipe nerf, which seems obviously balance-breaking and should in no way go through without other large changes to rebalance it out. If you undo that you can also undo the Disruptor nerf (or again buff surrounding things in response), which also seems unnecessary and annoying, though less game-breaking.
People up-thread are getting mad at the patch for changing things at all and negatively affecting the balance. I don't entirely disagree, as I'm fine with a static game and do think the balance is as good as it has ever been. But idk, there is also something to be said for shaking up the meta-game a bit from time to time, and doing it mostly through QoL sort of buffs is an interesting approach going forward. I am not yet for joining the rebellion against the new balance regime.
The fact a pro Zerg was willing to say it was a Zerg patch is telling. Are there any Koreans on the council of Balance Geniuses?
Its said that every player are involved in the process, as in they all have rights to voice their opinion and people will think about it. But I honestly doubt KR players are involving much into this whole process, they just want to play the game, not the balancing discussion.
On January 06 2023 12:38 tigera6 wrote: Its said that every player are involved in the process, as in they all have rights to voice their opinion and people will think about it. But I honestly doubt KR players are involving much into this whole process, they just want to play the game, not the balancing discussion.
You also have to factor in the language barrier and how that can change discussions. If one can type/speak English, it's easier to push your point across or re-emphasise or repeat your point. But if your points needed to be translated, and you need a translator to understand the points that others are making, it becomes that much more harder and troublesome. It wouldn't be a surprise to hear that Koreans did not participate much in the balance discussions.
On January 06 2023 12:38 tigera6 wrote: Its said that every player are involved in the process, as in they all have rights to voice their opinion and people will think about it. But I honestly doubt KR players are involving much into this whole process, they just want to play the game, not the balancing discussion.
well, Heromarine at least said he was not involved at all in the process so it's not every player
On January 06 2023 07:59 Moonerz wrote: Zergs specialty is making the case that every single unit they have sucks. Been their go to since release
Really hoping the ptr changes dont go through anytime soon. Would much rather we just remain on the current patch until they figure out the right direction by tinkering on the ptr and not just change for the sake of change
Yes that s why every changes in Zerg race will affect the game too much. Zerg race can t be changed as they are designed as a flow / swarm plus timing of a new wave every 30 seconds... The philosophy of Zerg is units with weakness and strenght at the same time,
Question : how can you increase main advantages of hydralisks "i.e dps/attacking air" without making stalkers completely useless (really low dps and cannon fooder in end game). So well here i go
- Hydralisks : +1 range / reduce dps proportionally (little bit) - Ultralisks : Smaller size / Speed upgrade little bit reduced / Price reduced from 300 / 200 to 250 / 200
- Stalkers : Attack upgrade increase from +1 to +2
For Lurkers, without affecting too much the game, i would try to tweak them proportionally of a higher supply cost (3 to 4). Then, tweak or remove their speed burrowing upgrade. For Queens, their tumor spell cost must be increased (25 to 50) and also their starting mana (50 to 60)
Returns Infested Terrans because they are so fun (in increasing their range spell to spam egg near tanks, that s why zerg need them ! Zerg need more tools I agree, but it s not wise to buff some parts of their gameplay while base players already struggle against this race.
On January 06 2023 22:55 Vision_ wrote: Why pros don t hear me ?!!!
Because you're just one of many thousands of people who post their patch ideas online? If they read TL at all, they might listen to some very popular opinion that's shared by majority of posters. Or do you really expect pro players to listen specifically to you?
EPT
