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KNUCKLEHEAD
United States15 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/dukPouV.png) From what I've heard the ~4k MMR range is one of the harder ranges to improve from. I watch my replays, have certain maps vetoed, and watch pro level games/streams but it seems Diamond is where I belong? If anyone else has a similar ladder experience, what's your advice on mindset or what the focus should be to break through the apparent ceiling? Or do we all hit a place where there's nowhere left to go? | ||
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Draddition
United States51 Posts
That said, usually I find if I'm plateauing, I'm not being critical enough of myself. Go through the common processes, and really commit to it. If you don't have a build for each match-up, get one. If you aren't sticking to that build, fix it. Look at benchmarks (X workers at Y minutes) that pro's hit, and get there. You aren't Serral/Maru/Reynor/etc, but you also aren't playing against any of those guys- there's no excuse for not hitting timings ~perfectly in a standard game. In general, focus on something, and REALLY dig into fixing it. Play vs AI to grind things out, get the muscle memory working. Try to remember how you felt about your position in a game at a certain time, and go back to check if that was correct. Similarly for workers. Overall, don't let yourself off easy. | ||
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NExt
Australia1651 Posts
Imagine yourself vs a gold or plat and I'm sure you'll understand. It's not the build order you just feel the game better and you'll smoke them. Same idea different tier. ... Edit: I know that's probably lame advice. Here's a more practical one. Find consistent practice with someone better than you. They'll force you to level up your game and then hopping back on the ladder you'll be just crisper off that practice. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France1805 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
Back then, my overall mechanics were far more solid than necessary. My macro was pretty decent and spending my resources wasn't a problem in most cases. I also knew several small tricks (thanks to GSL and Pro League) that others took what seemed like an eternity to learn. I felt like a boss when I started doing anti-reaper walls in PvT months before it became a regular thing on the ladder (even though it was already a trend at the pro level). But that didn't seem to be enough. The truth is that you need to find solutions to problems that you stumble upon. And a LOT can go wrong in a game. Nailing a macro opener is more than just hitting benchmarks - you also need to scout, understand what you see, learn how to respond to several strategies and tactics, etc. By constantly working on these things, you begin to learn the ins and outs of certain builds/styles. You begin to screw up less, learn what other players generally struggle against, etc. At the end of HOTS, I was finally able to get to M3. I'll always remember my PvZ experience at that time. First, I felt like I'd finally found a PvZ build that worked for me - San's gate nexus into 4 gate timing. But as I began to lose to some really good players, I started to second guess the build. I almost beat a GM zerg with the build, just for everything to fall apart and for zerg to look insanely broken again... to the point I swallowed my pride to ask for his help. And it turns out that while the build felt like a gamble after that match, the problem was that it wasn't supposed to straight up kill the zerg with mass zealots. The right goal was to actually do damage while setting up an immortal all-in follow up behind it. That bit of knowledge might sound trivial, but I understood the build deeply enough that things just clicked and I don't recall losing a single PvZ ladder match again in that season. It didn't take long after that to finally move on to M3. All in all, if your mechanics and macro are solid, just play a bunch while constantly searching for problems and solutions. | ||
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CicadaSC
311 Posts
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MM-yingxiong
Taiwan12 Posts
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[Phantom]
Mexico1867 Posts
Take a break. Don't play the game for a week or two. Maybe you'll be rusty your first game, but I find that after taking a break I come back with a much clear head. The stress of constantly laddering can also weigh you down. | ||
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Blargh
United States1956 Posts
On July 06 2022 14:30 [Phantom] wrote: I'll go against the grain. Take a break. Don't play the game for a week or two. Maybe you'll be rusty your first game, but I find that after taking a break I come back with a much clear head. The stress of constantly laddering can also weigh you down. I would agree with this. While I do get rusty if I don't play for a long time, I feel like you get into a rut of repetition if you just try and grind games. Often I'll take a break, come back, and end up playing equal or better than before after a bit of a break. But, I think there are a couple ways to improve. Because this is ladder, you can honestly just do the same build every game. I would recommend getting to Master's or so on the same build, with the goal of smoothing out every little issue in that build. You can probably pull a few standard builds from the pros that have been "mathed out". Some have tight timings, but if you're able to get those timings perfected, it can easily carry you to Master's. I remember playing a ZvT build that won me almost every game until mid-Master's because no one knew how to properly respond to it when executed well. To elaborate, when you lose with your "core" build, you should go through the replay, check exactly what lead to you to end up... falling behind, taking too much damage, not doing enough damage, etc., and then just revise it for the next game. I've always played aggressively, so it was typical for my mistake to be that I over-committed when I should have simply expanded while poking and prodding. Sometimes it was because I thought I had more time to make an attack before X came out (disruptors, tanks, etc.). Or perhaps I simply was not scouting enough. I'll just say right now that no one scouts enough, and that scouting more and knowing what your scouting information tells you, is like... the best thing you can do. Knowledge is power! There's not much that you can do to improve mechanically, but I have traditionally had low APM (a bit under 200 on avg?) and didn't find that to be my limiting factor. It was much more important to know what my opponent was doing, and what they were capable of doing at various points in the game. | ||
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dph114
14 Posts
You dont need to be some genius to make 5k. For example i have returned around 4months ago, started out at around 4k as terran then reached 4.2k pretty fast got stuck at 4.3k for some time, now at around 4.6k. As zerg you should just focus on mechanics, and by mechanics i mean attacking your opponent not just "macro", ling runby, bane drop, runby, lurker drops/nydus/runby, mutas, etc/etc. | ||
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daskleinehotte
Germany68 Posts
I am not really sure if that is the case. I don't want to make an excuse for myself, because I don't grind the game for 6 hours a day. But some people are just worse in microing (hand-eye-coordination), spoting drops (awareness), figuring things out / thinking on the spot (creativity / general intelligence(?)) and no matter the amount of time they spend practicing, they don't really get better in these areas. I think there is such a thing as skill ceiling before master, but I am not sure for whom exactly and what the exact parameters could be. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On July 06 2022 14:16 MM-yingxiong wrote: just focus on macro, if you're stuck playing 500+ games a season then you should look at how you build units and workers and change your focus from pointless microing of 6 lings to building workers 1-2 seconds earlier, that makes difference, try hitting the timings of a proplayer replay you just watched. for example, I copied vindicta's 3cc banshee build in tvz and I started winning a lot more when I stopped trying to kill a drone with a reaper or trying to kill a creep tumor with my 2 hellions and shifted my focus towards constantly building scvs and units. no need to watch replays of yourself because at this level you're not losing because of your decision making (that also does ruin some games but not in a big picture) but because of poor macro so just focus on hitting your timings, no need to distract yourself with all these replays and other things, just play more I think that's definitely the case of anybody stuck in metal leagues. So long as your opener isn't atrocious and your unit composition is simple and efficient, raw macro easily gets you into diamond. Back when I only played protoss, I purposefully dropped to gold league with my off-races just to rank up by focusing on the basics... just to realize my macro alone was enough to smash everyone below diamond. I just watched Vibe's series to learn a fairly generic style, then started playing and reached D3 on auto-pilot with mech as terran and by winging it with mostly roaches as zerg in no time. Those matches boiled down to making workers nonstop, injecting and spreading creep if playing zerg, aggressively expanding all over the time, and making units nonstop (or when appropriate as zerg). However, once I got into D3 as terran and D2 as zerg, I began to lose a fair amount of games because of specific things. I realized I didn't know how to play with mech against swarm hosts, how to deal with BC openers as zerg, how I was suppossed to play when going roaches vs a muta player, etc. And while focusing on pro builds and benchmarks (which I'd always obsessively done with my main race) would have been helpful, there's just a lot that can get you killed. A good example would be blink openers with a fast third off 2 gate robo in PvT - an excellent opener, but if all you worry about is benchmarks you'll probably get smashed by 3 rax stim timings. So I feel constantly building workers and units should be a given in D1. On July 06 2022 17:07 daskleinehotte wrote: Basically the picture above applies to me as well, except that I play in Diamond 2 for 10+ seasons in a row. From reading all the comments, the general point of view seems to be that there is no real skill ceiling before Masters and everyone should be able to reach it, if they only apply x,y and z. I am not really sure if that is the case. I don't want to make an excuse for myself, because I don't grind the game for 6 hours a day. But some people are just worse in microing (hand-eye-coordination), spoting drops (awareness), figuring things out / thinking on the spot (creativity / general intelligence(?)) and no matter the amount of time they spend practicing, they don't really get better in these areas. I think there is such a thing as skill ceiling before master, but I am not sure for whom exactly and what the exact parameters could be. Well, you can't expect to get much better if you just play one or two games every other day... but it's more about daily consistency with the right attitude than playing it for hours on end as if it were your job. I have a friend that would sometimes grind for days in an attempt to reach master league, just to keep on making the same mistakes every single game and eventually give up. For instance, I've lost count how many times he sent his overlords across the map in 2v2. All he had to do was make a point of hotkeying his eggs and not change his rally point while pushing, but he probably found it such a pain to fix that habit that in the end he never did. If anything, I think a lot of the things you mentioned can be dealt with by anybody if they approach them with the right mindset. For instance, spoting drops by constantly looking at the minimap is something that can be trained, but the key to drop defense is mostly a matter of map vision. And map vision is incredibly easy to fix - just make extensive use of pylons, overlords, observers, tumors, lings/marines/zealots, etc to spot more easily anything going towards your base. As for micro, I don't think anyone needs exceptional hand-eye coordination to get good engagements. More often than not, it's all about the setup - having a decent hotkey and ctrl group setup, getting a good concave before a fight begins, queuing up commands (drops, liberators, etc) so that only the other player's multitasking is taxed, etc. If you believe you practice enough to improve but don't seem to get better, you should probably ask around for help. I'm sure you'll find a handful of higher level players willing to give you pointers. | ||
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MM-yingxiong
Taiwan12 Posts
On July 06 2022 17:11 vhapter wrote: A good example would be blink openers with a fast third off 2 gate robo in PvT - an excellent opener, but if all you worry about is benchmarks you'll probably get smashed by 3 rax stim timings. So I feel constantly building workers and units should be a given in D1. benchmarks are not only about hitting a certain amount of supply but also when to move out and other small things, what I'm trying to say is don't put too much attention into things that won't matter after this current moment. and also D1 level macro is wayyy worse than M1 in many ways, I myself went this year from 4,3k to 5k with some tips from a friend of mine, 5,5k player and HE taught me these things. whenever I play vs 4,4k~ players they just don't have enough units because they spend too much attention on controlling things like reaper in tvts which leads to small supply blocks and other things that lead to a bigger disadvantage like 45 scvs vs 50 in a game where nothing happened but the guy forgot to build a depot in time because he tried to get fancy moving around trying to snipe a reaper of mine for 20 seconds. | ||
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Blargh
United States1956 Posts
On July 06 2022 16:47 dph114 wrote: If you are stuck at 4k it might be your mechanics. To play zerg properly you need something like 250apm atleast. You dont need to be some genius to make 5k. For example i have returned around 4months ago, started out at around 4k as terran then reached 4.2k pretty fast got stuck at 4.3k for some time, now at around 4.6k. As zerg you should just focus on mechanics, and by mechanics i mean attacking your opponent not just "macro", ling runby, bane drop, runby, lurker drops/nydus/runby, mutas, etc/etc. I don't personally think it's just mechanics. But as a low APM zerg (sub 200), I do think you need to be efficient with your actions. It can be really easy to get distracted, but I personally find Zerg the easiest mechanically. It's mostly just keeping up with your queens, either injecting or creeping. I'd say in Diamond, you should be looking at your queens more than your pack of lings. Just don't let the lings disappear  | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4113 Posts
i have been a low gm protoss on the same level for ~8 years (2011-2019). It's not that i didn't win macro games at all when i played them, i just refused to. Especially towards the end of my journey. To improve you have to go out of your way to watch ur mistakes, to learn build orders, copy others to a second. Get rid of hotkey habits and learn improved ones. get used to camera hotkeys. Don't be afraid to lose for a while to get long term results. etc etc. I never did. i just winged it. always. Reasons were the following: - Severe social anxiety and the fear to having to join a team to even talk to them on the phone / skype etc. offline events were absolutely out of the question (hi maxpax  )- It was simply convenient and easy to maintain my level and not having to go out of the way to improve [protoss helped here, although i gotta say that espeically in the early days, terran and zerg cheese to gm was almost as easy and i also did it once] - I was always satisfied with being somewhat known by some insiders and viewed as a decent enough player, and an elite player in the public eyes. i just wanted my gm badge. it felt good enough. I acutally had and still have that problem in multiple games, although my anxiety got way better over the years. - wc3 - beat some pros, good enough, let's not play tournaments and show up on ladder here and there on and off - Dota2 - got to immortal. stopped playing in fear of losing it. had to relearn to play it - line tower wars (yes, it had a tiny competetive scene). find a build and style that suited me, never changed it, got to be the 2nd best player for a while. stopped improving. got angry about myselfs and everything. eventually stopped. - Diablo 2 - my character is lvl 96. lets stop. never got 99. 96 multiple times. good enough, right? - Diablo 3 - i'm top 50 in greater rifts! im top 10! i would have to invest quite a bit more to level up my gems and get higher, let's just enter a rift i know i'm gonna die in and stop. - bloons TD6. top 10 every ranked boss. would have to work harder to squeeze out some seconds to get top 3! nah, top 10 is good enough. some ppl have seen my nickname. lets stop playing. TL:DR - go out of your way to get rid of your bad habits - copy what the pros do and HOW they do it (hotkeys, setups etc) - don't be afraid to lose to change - don't bother about what ppl think when they see ur profile / nickname / etc, if you have that problem. [ladder anxiety] | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1582 Posts
On July 06 2022 10:58 NExt wrote: Off the beaten path tip but just improve your 'feel' for the game. Enjoy the game, do some weird sh*t and then look back and see where you actually were. Try something without the intention of winning e.g. 3 prongs attacks instead of 2. Omega creep highways. And maybe it'll be added into your gameplay. Stop always trying to improve specifics for now at least. Definitely necessary for higher tier master low gm levels but right now unless you're outright build order losing. I don't think at this level build orders are 'make or break'. I only made masters once (in a legit season, not a massively inflated / ladder bug one). But this is how I got it. For most of my first years playing Zerg I was a very straight-edge roach-max in ZvP, ling bane into hydra / muta ZvT and the same two builds (one macro one early allin) ZvZ. That got me to around diamond 1 with no real hope of progressing much further in sight (mostly due to ZvP, my other 2 MUs were borderline). So I started ****ing around. Not with the intention of ranking up, but just because ranking up further seemed pointless so I might as well have fun. I did way more 12 pools, proxy hatches, 2 base roach allins (every matchup lol), queen walks, everything I could think of to end the game before 2-2 upgrades and full 3 base economies became relevant. When you play a variety of styles - particularly ones that "destabilize" the game, you become way better at reading the game (provided you bother to get map vision and scouting anyway). It also hones your killer instinct. A lot of my friends who tend to avoid hyper-aggressive and cheesey play have one consistent weakness - they don't know when and how to just end a game when they can. When you're relying on some short-term tech or army advantages a lot, you get a much better feel for how to kill the opponent. -------------- Also, in replays, just watch your supply and resources like a hawk. Anything over 300 minerals or any more than a second or two of supply block and you should figure out how to avoid it. | ||
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Spirral
24 Posts
How many games do you play per season? I would say if you really wanna climb the ladder you need to improve faster than the average player at your level. This means you either need to play significantly more games than average player at your level or somehow make you practice way more efficient (that's where coaching, replay analysis and watching guides may help). So, how much work did you put in? For me personally, I would only hope to advance to the next league if I put at least 500-1000 games in the season and I am at D1-M3 atm. If I don't put even 500 games last season then expecting to advance to the next league is not realistic imo. | ||
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BlackLilium
Poland426 Posts
I am simply too slow. I forget things and sometimes even if I don't forget things I feel that my fingers are too slow and do it later than I should. | ||
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gleed
9 Posts
On July 06 2022 19:21 Spirral wrote: Take note that everybody else is improving too so if you stay at the same level, it means you are improving, just not faster than the rest of the ladder around your level. can't confirm this hypothesis. haven't played the game in 10 years, recently picked it up again and looked up some basic BOs and I'm still mid/high masters. player levels in general don't seem to have improved at all. | ||
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Spirral
24 Posts
On July 06 2022 20:17 gleed wrote: can't confirm this hypothesis. haven't played the game in 10 years, recently picked it up again and looked up some basic BOs and I'm still mid/high masters. player levels in general don't seem to have improved at all. The fact that your level didn't drop too much after a break doesn't mean it wouldn't improve if were playing all this time. You may also be especially talented which doesn't make you the average player. To counter your point I am hitting many people on ladder that were mid/high masters for multiple seasons in WoL/HotS, but now they are stuck in D1 for many seasons after coming back to the game, so it is quite opposite to your scenario. | ||
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