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On September 04 2007 17:20 BluzMan wrote:
First of all, if you take out MBS, the warp gate feature will get broken at an instant. Well, it is gonna be ok early-game, but not at late game when gate number exceeds 6-8. There is no way to successfuly control something that requires a repetetive procedure of "select something on screen - > precisely click on a spot at another point of the map". If it happens rarely, like recall or re-rally, well, you can take the time to aim. But those are gates, FFS. So the only thing you can do is rework MBS. FA has proposed "every building is a subgroup" feature, so that you need to press TAB, a variation of reworked MBS is already implemented with warp gates. Taking it out at all is not an opportunity.
As for auto-mine, I don't really know. It certainly has effect, but it's unbelievably mundane. I guess I could accept it, but only if I get something in return.
For the average player warp gates will be hard to use, yes. Isn't that just asking for the next Oov of Protoss to warp in 12 dragoons somewhere, which would be exceedingly APM intensive.
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Just like to point out to those that imply that war3 is BW with MBS and automine features that they should learn how to build an argument...
War3 has Heroes
War3 has Upkeep
Don't compare things that can't be compared...
What you should point out is that you like the frantic action in BW and by action I mean clicks and button pressing. You like the fact that APM is REQUIRED to be of any success.
Frankly with my 170 APM max i also like the fact that I can't "beat the game" and sometimes even playing my A game i'm behind the pace of the game eventhough i can't imagine how I could be faster.
But having said that I'm also depressed when I hear Nony in his commentary telling us (average TL.net member) that the only way to get to a higher level is just to gain speed...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 04 2007 17:20 BluzMan wrote:
First of all, if you take out MBS, the warp gate feature will get broken at an instant. Well, it is gonna be ok early-game, but not at late game when gate number exceeds 6-8. There is no way to successfuly control something that requires a repetetive procedure of "select something on screen - > precisely click on a spot at another point of the map". If it happens rarely, like recall or re-rally, well, you can take the time to aim. But those are gates, FFS. So the only thing you can do is rework MBS. FA has proposed "every building is a subgroup" feature, so that you need to press TAB, a variation of reworked MBS is already implemented with warp gates. Taking it out at all is not an opportunity.
As for auto-mine, I don't really know. It certainly has effect, but it's unbelievably mundane. I guess I could accept it, but only if I get something in return.
Well, I think being able to select multiple buildings for the purposes of setting rally points is a good thing, so you could just make it so you can select multiple gateways, transform them into warpgates and then build from them.
On September 04 2007 18:40 Leon-bw wrote:
Just like to point out to those that imply that war3 is BW with MBS and automine features that they should learn how to build an argument...
War3 has Heroes
War3 has Upkeep
Don't compare things that can't be compared...
What you should point out is that you like the frantic action in BW and by action I mean clicks and button pressing. You like the fact that APM is REQUIRED to be of any success.
Frankly with my 170 APM max i also like the fact that I can't "beat the game" and sometimes even playing my A game i'm behind the pace of the game eventhough i can't imagine how I could be faster.
But having said that I'm also depressed when I hear Nony in his commentary telling us (average TL.net member) that the only way to get to a higher level is just to gain speed...
I disagree that the only way to get better would be to gain speed, better execution and a deeper understanding of the game is as important.
It could be argued that better execution means gaining speed, but just stop to think about players like Savior, nal_ra or iloveoov.
All have great execution, and they are all 200~ something APM players.
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Isn't Testie only like 160-200 apm player, too? He can compete with the good pro gamers too.
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Most of you don't even try to hide that their arguments are based on "I want the game to feel the same as the game I loved playing the last 10 years". That's a fine opinion but it wont make the game worse for players who were not connected to BW.
It's just emotional.
I guess we can agree that both features will not change pro gaming much, right?
And i guess we can agree, that it would be dumb if buildings would be built faster or worker would mine more if you'd continuously click on them (which would be examples for features that would demant your attention the whole time).
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On September 04 2007 16:52 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2007 13:56 Sadist wrote:
imo MBS will improve micro in that you wont have to worry as much about shit being messed up in your main and will be able to focus on units which is good. As nony said macro isnt even about how fast you press the keys.
Also automining is fine too, I dont see what the big deal is. It takes away one dumb aspect of the game that cancels out at high levels anyway. BW shouldnt necessarily be about how good your multi task is, it can help I guess but its sort of dumb that it has sort of come to that when competing at higher levels (and lower levels too I guess)
edit:
Also lets not forget you still have to tell things to build as well as manage your money/supply and micro, all this does is get rid of stupid situations such as where you are back at your base because something didnt build and your army gets raped because you werent able to watch because of some shit pathing function.
This has nothing to do with either of your skill, its purely chance that they attacked the very instant you decided to go back to your base because of stupid pathing. They did not know you werent watching your units for that split second, its just dumb luck.
If you are faster obviously you will have less of these situations but this idea of speed translating into somesort of bw skill is dumb(obviously you have to be skilled at the other parts of the game, but for example a reason why non koreans seem to struggle vs the koreans is partly due to the vastly superior mechanics of the professionals vs the amateurs)
IMO its dumb, it has little to do with the actual skill of the game, ya it can give you an advantage, but like I said at the highest levels of the game it cancels out anyway so why even bother to have it. Ya its part of the reason why bw is so difficult but that doesnt necessarily mean its a good facet of the game.
Having MBS and Automining could possibly even speed up play since faster players would be allowed much more freedom to harass and use the full potential of units than ever before. Imagine actually being able to use optical flare and shit in meaningful games?
Imagine it being hectic to where you have to manage several battles all over the map with nice micro to survive? I mean where one facet of the game theoretically goes away, another part of the game is allowed to be better. Sadist I like you but I can't finish reading this post because I disagree so much with it -.-
its fine to disagree
Ill give a golf analogy here.
New technology in golf clubs came along in the early 90's people no longer needed to use wooden (persimmon) drivers and the new titanium ones had bigger heads and were "easier" to hit, new irons came along to with a bigger "sweet spot" and were "easier" to hit too. People feared that golf would never have a dominant player again because these clubs took all the skill out of golf. They were wrong, while ball striking has improved in golf dramatically, the courses are much more difficult today to combat that and the need for a great shortgame has improved. Players now are better than before on average, but the courses they play are 10x harder than they played 10 years ago. The dominance part was retarded, theres plenty of dominant players including the most dominant all time in Tiger Woods. So the game changed a bit, but its still the same for the most part and it actually helped people get better by improving the clubs.
IM sure its the same in tennis, people assumed the modern racket would ruin the game, it wasnt true tennis because now you could get by on having a godly serve etc. But thats not true, the players today are nuts, the game is much faster than ever before and and players like federer can come along and revolutionize the game showing that you need to not have holes in your game anymore.
So, while you feel handspeed should be an important part of bw(and it still would be if you read my post about being able to harass at multiple spots along with manage economy/expand/ build stuff etc) I feel like the stuff you are talking about is there strictly because of a archaic design. Ya someone who played bw for only 3 months will never beat you, but does that mean they are significantly worse than you? Once you learn how to manage economy and such, handspeed really gets in the way and probably takes away from us players who could otherwise improve the game with better game management and micro etc.
And to the guy who said he thinks about boxers multitask when observing his micro......are you kidding me? THe beuty of boxers micro is he takes units that are notoriously difficult to control in certain situations (say marine/scvs) and rapes with them.
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Sweden33719 Posts
This isn't new golf clubs, it's turning golf into mini-golf.
And of course the guy who's played for 3 months is significantly worse than me, at every single facet of the game.
BoxeR's focus on micro would not be special if everyone was focusing on it, and that's what will happen when you simplify macro. Of course I don't think about his multitasking when watching him micro 1 marine vs a lurker, but it's going to be a lot less impressive when everyone is doing it since they don't have anything else to do.
Even if you will free up time for more harass or whatever it's not a desireable evolution to me, I prefer the frantic pace of trying to harass while keeping your macro tidy.
I don't know how much of an impact it will actually have, but everyone who's played it from TL has said it makes macro too simple. At least this is something that can easily be fixed in the beta (I assume) if needed.
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Well I'm not going into that discussion once again, I just want to share 1 more aspect to think about:
Starcraft is ~9 years old. Players like us are pretty hardcore (excluding those who just started it in order to "prepare" for SC2), still playing it, watching reps/VODs, following the Korean pro scene and so on. The game is very balanced and very fitting for e-sports.
All combined, this creates a certain feel or opinion that this game is perfect, that it has no weakness or that the few weaknesses it has are irrelevant or even "necessary" for the game in order to be perfect (paradox?).
And this results in a thinking that SC2 must in large parts be exactly like SC1 (e.g.: having no multiple building selection) otherwise it's going to suck. Basically, many just want SC1 again with new units and new graphics, and every other major change is looked at sceptically.
You know, that's just normal... humans are very much based on habit. So, a drastic change like MBS is often seen as "bad". But I'm pretty sure that once we all tested the game for a bit longer and know more about it, know how the gameplay is, know exactly how MBS affects the gameplay, then we can judge much more objectively if MBS is a good or bad thing for the game.
We need to be more skilled in SC2 (not SC1) in order to say that.
Blizzard should include MBS as planned (they will do that anyway I'm 99% sure), and MAYBE later on, with a patch, remove it for competitive gaming if it turns out to be really bad. And keep it for casual gamers or kids who play BGH/Fastest.
But all this talk right now about MBS, be it from the pro or contra faction, is all mostly based on prejudice, scepticism or optimism.
Even from the people who have already tested SC2 for a short time (wasn't it 1 hour at Blizzcon?), because that short time just isn't enough to estimate the impact correctly.
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What about make MBS as an upgrade? It would be called something like 'Commanding skill' so it will give you ability to send same command do more then one building. It would be something expensive like shield upgrade in SC1 and it would have three levels. So at level 1 you can select two buildings, level 2 - three and level 3 - four buildings. And also place the upgrade in separate building (expensive) building which will increase the cost of this comfort even more.
So on the high level of the play it would be recognized as waste of money and maybe usable in the late game when you reached the unit cap and have a lot of money. This auto regulation would be imo a lot better and more natural then something artificially forced. So noobs will be upgrading asap so but will die vs timed attack executed by any decent player. And on BGH and FME you can afford anything so noobs will have what they want.
my two euro cents.
EDIT: and unlimited selection could be something like 4th level ultimate upgrade which would costs something like 3000/3000
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I just want to say that if we have MBS than we need something which will render this ability useless on the pro level. I just don't like the idea of some toggles in options menu that will be turned off in ladder/tournament games.
This is just an example how it could be done.
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On September 04 2007 21:50 FrozenArbiter wrote:
This isn't new golf clubs, it's turning golf into mini-golf.
And of course the guy who's played for 3 months is significantly worse than me, at every single facet of the game.
BoxeR's focus on micro would not be special if everyone was focusing on it, and that's what will happen when you simplify macro. Of course I don't think about his multitasking when watching him micro 1 marine vs a lurker, but it's going to be a lot less impressive when everyone is doing it since they don't have anything else to do.
Even if you will free up time for more harass or whatever it's not a desireable evolution to me, I prefer the frantic pace of trying to harass while keeping your macro tidy.
I don't know how much of an impact it will actually have, but everyone who's played it from TL has said it makes macro too simple. At least this is something that can easily be fixed in the beta (I assume) if needed.
I mean, if you like a frantic pace why not have it like war2 where you cant que units in buildings. Or how about you have to manually build the buildings with an scv (ie it starts, stops and you have to move it diagnal or something to get it to start again, and it repeats until it is finished)
IMO it adds nothing to the game. BW wasnt this frenetic before, only up until the past 3-4 years. Youll still have an advantage with handspeed, is bw more about your economy and managing units or is it about handspeed? I mean tasteless suggesting that there should be "key combinations that allow you to build things faster" I mean why stop there, why not just completely code the game by yourself at the start of everygame, then well see whos fast.
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On September 04 2007 22:39 sundance wrote:
I just want to say that if we have MBS than we need something which will render this ability useless on the pro level. I just don't like the idea of some toggles in options menu that will be turned off in ladder/tournament games.
This is just an example how it could be done.
why should it be useless at the pro level?
All of those guys are relatively equal in game mechanics anyway, it cancels out regardless.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Brutalisk, they played for way more than 1 hour - tasteless said he played for 7 hours and I'm not sure how long the people who went to blizzcon played, but I think they played more than 10 games, and 1 game was .. 15? 20? minutes.
Not that it's a lot of playtime but they all said it made macro too simple. I actually had decided to withhold final judgement until people had actually tested the game, maybe it wasn't extensive testing but.. Meh.
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Agreed with Sadist. Macro is much more about not to forget to build that damn units than some hand speed. If you forget to build units now than you will forget to press 4z too.
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On September 04 2007 09:18 rpf wrote:
I
You can ctrl click larvae. It's the same concept, just applied to all races.
THANK YOU !
I've been trying to explain that since forever. MBS is not such a big thing, it won't truly simplify macro in a high skill game. I will just make it different. The multitasking required to actually produce units is still necessary.
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On September 04 2007 22:29 sundance wrote:
What about make MBS as an upgrade? It would be called something like 'Commanding skill' so it will give you ability to send same command do more then one building. It would be something expensive like shield upgrade in SC1 and it would have three levels. So at level 1 you can select two buildings, level 2 - three and level 3 - four buildings. And also place the upgrade in separate building (expensive) building which will increase the cost of this comfort even more.
So on the high level of the play it would be recognized as waste of money and maybe usable in the late game when you reached the unit cap and have a lot of money. This auto regulation would be imo a lot better and more natural then something artificially forced. So noobs will be upgrading asap so but will die vs timed attack executed by any decent player. And on BGH and FME you can afford anything so noobs will have what they want.
my two euro cents.
EDIT: and unlimited selection could be something like 4th level ultimate upgrade which would costs something like 3000/3000
I feel your idea is REALLY good, but I don't truly know if it will work out.
Except for the unlimited selection part, that is unwanted.
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Glaring micro mistakes just because the benefit of macro is much higher than micro is NOT what a pro game in a spectator sport should have, period.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 04 2007 22:48 minus_human wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2007 09:18 rpf wrote:
I
You can ctrl click larvae. It's the same concept, just applied to all races.
THANK YOU ! I've been trying to explain that since forever. MBS is not such a big thing, it won't truly simplify macro in a high skill game. I will just make it different. The multitasking required to actually produce units is still necessary.
No wtf you can't select all larvae across the map at once with this method.
How can you even consider it to be REMOTELY the same fucking thing.
On September 04 2007 23:02 lololol wrote:
Glaring micro mistakes just because the benefit of macro is much higher than micro is NOT what a pro game in a spectator sport should have, period.
.....
WHAT KIND OF ARGUMENT IS THIS!?
The fact that players aren't perfect due to work overload is appealing. The fact that the best players are still so much closer to perfect than the less-than top players is much more apparent with the way things are now than if you do what you suggest.
A player losing all his vessels to scourges because he's too busy defending his base makes things EXCITING.
On September 04 2007 22:29 sundance wrote:
What about make MBS as an upgrade? It would be called something like 'Commanding skill' so it will give you ability to send same command do more then one building. It would be something expensive like shield upgrade in SC1 and it would have three levels. So at level 1 you can select two buildings, level 2 - three and level 3 - four buildings. And also place the upgrade in separate building (expensive) building which will increase the cost of this comfort even more.
So on the high level of the play it would be recognized as waste of money and maybe usable in the late game when you reached the unit cap and have a lot of money. This auto regulation would be imo a lot better and more natural then something artificially forced. So noobs will be upgrading asap so but will die vs timed attack executed by any decent player. And on BGH and FME you can afford anything so noobs will have what they want.
my two euro cents.
EDIT: and unlimited selection could be something like 4th level ultimate upgrade which would costs something like 3000/3000
Sounds needlessly complicated, don't like this idea at all personally.
Anyway, MBS + unlimited selection just sounds ugh to me :[
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What a gay.
I like Nony's argument for MBS. I mean, you have teamliquid people saying SC2 was very easy etc, but come on, who from TL loses to pub noobs?
Tasteless's split for competition would be a good compromise to the situation.
I personally don't think MBS will be that bad.
I actually don't like playing SC as much cuz I am bored of macroing.
I micro tourney all day.
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Commanding skill should also apply to units. I mean the true mesure of skill is working with a Dunelike interface isn´t it? 
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EPT
