EPTcompetitive play issues - Page 2
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lamarine
591 Posts
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
On September 04 2007 06:37 lamarine wrote: i don't like automining, but there is one issue - it would be hard to purchse units from warp gates without it.... (u have 20 gates, can't bind them all, so u have to click one, then press key then click on location and so on for 20 times o_O, although may be warp gates won't be that popular, who knows) I think you mean MBS, not automine. And as Dustin has said, warpgates don't work with MBS anyway, so that point is irrelevant. | ||
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lamarine
591 Posts
On September 04 2007 06:42 LonelyMargarita wrote: I think you mean MBS, not automine. And as Dustin has said, warpgates don't work with MBS anyway, so that point is irrelevant. yeap:D fixed:D about Dustin... i think u misunderstood something... oO | ||
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Famehunter
Canada586 Posts
You ll just get to harass/expand/micro more than before. Thats a good thing for the game imo. | ||
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Dariush
Romania330 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
its a see-through green square and I really don't like it, it ought to be just a box like in StarCraft having it filled with translucent green is unnecessarily visual stimulus, it just gets in the way its also really ugly | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
the minimap in starcraft looks way more polished than the minimap in sc2 it seems  | ||
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darktreb
United States3019 Posts
When was the last time we saw a "pimp" play that involved pumping out units fast out of 8 barracks or making sure harvesters started mining? We continue to see pimp plays based off of timing, great strategies/decisions, trickery, creative skill usage, etc. In addition, those are the same factors that continue to make a big difference on the pro scene. Last time I checked, multiple building selection and auto-gather resources has no negative effect on any of this. I really don't think that auto-rally resources makes any difference at the pro level where they never forget anyway. On the other hand, multiple building selection DOES matter EXCEPT we forget that you rarely build the SAME UNIT out of ALL of some building. So from that perspective, not that much has actually changed, since you still have to select all 12 of your Gateways, and then deselect 4 of them before hitting "Z" for the 8 Zealots you wanted which might be faster than it used to be but it's certainly not a two button "5+Z" or whatever like everyone is making it out to be. And also, I made a thread about this earlier but specific features aren't what made WC3 not nearly as good as SC ... it was the style and spirit of the game. | ||
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ImgGartok
United States216 Posts
I still support multiple building selection, however. I just see no reason not to, to be honest. It doesn't simplify the game as much as people make it out to. In a real game on a real ladder map you will still have to click multiple times, especially endgame, due to resource management and unit balance (if you mass a single unit from all your gateways, isn't that just asking to be hard countered?) My 2 cents, I would like the UI to be improved in some ways but automining does sound kinda sketch for SC2. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
4z boring | ||
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ThisIsJimmy
United States546 Posts
On September 04 2007 06:11 NonY[rC] wrote: Oh and for the stubborn naysayers of MBS, I'd like to throw this idea out there... The tell-tale sign of a bad macro player in BW is that he has too many units queued into his buildings. We all know it's much better to only have 1 unit queued at a time. But if MBS does anything for a player like that, it only screws him even worse, making it easier to queue multiple units in his buildings. Oh and on the other topic... automining is much much more macro killing than MBS. I really really really don't want to see automining in SC2. The extra money a player receives for taking the time to tell his peons to mine is huge. I have to disagree with this based on my experiences. In BW, the reason that a player will queue up more then 1 unit at a time is because they can't keep up with the speed of the game, or they have gotten behind (have a lot of resources built up). With MBS, this won't happen or mess up a player because the player will not get behind in the first place. MBS won't make things worse for anyone, it will make everything much easier. Even the worse players will not even need to look at there base unless they are making a building. The process of making units will be a lot simpler and faster meaning that you will have plenty of time to press 5-z or whatever even when microing heavily. Instead of clicking/hotkeying through all of your buildings. MBS will cause players like myself to be able to keep the minerals down with no difficulty at all and also make it very simple to keep up with the pace of the game. I think it will get rid of the frantic time spent making units and microing at the same time and that it will result in players with high apm having nothing to do (you can only micro SO much). I agree that an option to turn it on or off would be best. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On a related note, MBS and automining won't make a difference in progaming if it was added to SC1. The top pros are all have essentially perfect mechanics. MBS and automining will only hurt skill differentiation among the lower echelon of players; where often the determining factor in games is how many units one person can make over the other. If MBS was added to SC1, it would probably hurt the competitiveness of lower level play, but it would hardly affect play at the level of Korean pros. | ||
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mdainoob
United States51 Posts
I think automining is really inevitable... at least it wont be there for zerg lol. I do hope there won't be multiple building selection for competitive play though... but chances are there most certainly will. Good sc play requires a certain amount of multitasking. Sure, macroing from 10 gates or something will only take about a second, but the fact is that becuase you have to shift back to your base and manage it. Same with automining, it takes a very small amount of time to shift back to your base and tell workers to mine but it takes up time as well. With both automining and MBS, a player could essentially focus on their army the whole time, because you could have enough hotkeys to effectively macro without using the mouse. It would make micro battles less impressive IMO. A lot of people for MBS seem to think that macroing is such a tedious task... but for even a slow player like me (140-170 apm zerg) its just a fun part of teh game that I am used to and its not that hard to keep your resources low or something. Its just that juggling all these tasks around, one of which is producing units at the right time and consistently, requires good multitasking which makes the game challenging. And thats just the mechanical aspect, the decision making and strategy aspect is very deep as well, but I feel the level of mechanics required complements the deep strategical depth of the game very nicely. Anyways I think that as long as sc2 requires the same amount of multitasking level as sc does it'll be fine. Like constantly shifting around screens to juggle multiple tasks around, even to the point that one has to prioritize which tasks to complete first because there is too much to multitask. One arguement i've seen reiterated over and over again is "battle on multiple fronts". Well not every game would be able to have this which would be bad if this is the only way sc2 will require heavy levels of multitasking. In contrast, sc games nearly always require a high level of multitasking to play well. And based on the reactions of people who played sc2, such as tasteless who said "I hardly had to think about my base", it seems like a much lower amount of multitasking will be required... Anyways I agree with Tasteless' suggestions completely, but unfortunately I don't think they are likely to be implemented -_- | ||
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Wizard
Poland5055 Posts
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On September 04 2007 06:54 Jyvblamo wrote: I hope both automine and MBS are in SC2, since I honestly don't believe that they'll have a negative impact on competitive gaming. If anything, it will allow progamers to shift attention away from mundane tasks and focus more on crowd-pleasing things like executing micro-intensive battles. The legions of fans don't go to watch progaming matches for their ability to macro off 10 gates in a split second or order their new workers to mine. actually they go to watch both. There is quite a fascination with both the great micro in battles and the players ability produce while doing it. I can say this because i've been to korea and all the koreans i've spoken to down there seem to share the love of both the macro and the micro. I don't see how making macro so much simpler will somehow unveil the genius strategy we weren't seeing before. If you play as much as a pro you can macro incredibly fast while microing at the same time. This is why they play 10 hours a day. The point is that a very talented player can do both. a newbie player can probably only focus on one. If that's the issue, put an easier feature like MBS in non ladder games/non competitive games. I know blizzard keeps talking up all these new features that will occupy the players so that MBS won't be as noticeable. After playing i can say that you could easily macro like you do in starcraft AND micro these new abilities without problem. MBS is simply unnecessary for competitive play. It's FAR too easy, and I'm telling you this from first person experience. Some people need help to keep up, but good players wont. Let the best battle it out under the most strenuous of conditions. Let this game grow to be the best esport game ever. | ||
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Famehunter
Canada586 Posts
You forgot the idle worker buton. Even if you forget to send your workers to mine. The ui will be there to remind you that you have idle workers. Now you may say that this will be bad for the "timing" part of the game but personally I think only newbs will ever need to use that button since we can also queue up commands now. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On September 04 2007 07:12 Wizard[pl] wrote: This is a great idea. The thing is, I think we'd need to figure out what options would be "toggleable". I think Tasteless would prefer if the hypothetical "competitive mode" of SC2 had the exact same interface as SC1. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On September 04 2007 07:04 Silent`Assassin wrote: I have to disagree with this based on my experiences. I think he meant that on the high level of play where he plays himself MBS will have little impact because a player needs to macro better than just stupidly using the still very powerful MBS hotkey system. But, even at that level you can use MBS as an intelligent way to macro as well and reduce required APM. At the same time at the lower level where near-perfect macro isn't a requirement it will also have a huge impact. Players from total beginners and competitive veterans will easily be able to build a lot with only a few actions. All will macro the same way and players that in SC would cover a wide spectrum of skill will be a lot closer together in SCII. And the main battlefield in terms of skill will be micro. It will be a lot harder to beat a player of less skill just by outmacroing him. The game will last longer and luck will play a bigger role. | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
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