EPTThis should mean more multi front micro.
competitive play issues - Page 3
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oshibori_probe
United States2932 Posts
This should mean more multi front micro. | ||
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goldenkrnboi
United States3104 Posts
i personally agree with Tasteless. It wouldn't seem much fun if every multiplayer game you play required little to no macro whatsoever. but every now and then would be for maybe stress relief or something. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
On September 04 2007 06:49 lamarine wrote: yeap:D fixed:D about Dustin... i think u misunderstood something... oO Nope. You did. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
BUT: it could divide the comunity a bit having too many toggles for a game. You enter a game and it turns out to have the toggle set the way you do not like. You leave? Or should you choose when you search for games? automatch a game of my skillevel with all toggles my way. With only a few toggles it would reduce the number of availible players by a lot. Nevermind, I'll be constructive: MBS and automining will reduce the time you ned for macroing those tasks. It is important that blizzard gives us new MACROING tasks to fill this time up!! Leave the time for micro and we get war3, or it becomes boring to play as was said in the OP. These new macrotasks could be not only challenging not only in terms of handspeed, but also include some decision making. Clikcing through 8 gateways or setting drones to mine speed the game up, but they do not require any decisions to be made. Lets give us new tasks requiring the same speed, but ALSO some decisionmaking! Lets evolve the macroing, not just preserve it! I do not know exactly what these new tasks would be, but I will give you some examples from other threads, some things that are allready in the game, and some own idea, JUST TO DEMONSTARTE WHAT I MEAN. So please do not say "stupid ideas" without commenting on the concept itself!  1) The addon for terran that maks you build faster. 2) The protoss ability to warp in at different locations. "should I upgrade my gateway to a warpgate?" Where should I warp in my troops? More new macro tasks! (it could be discussed if this really is macro...) 3) Selling buildings back. OMG he killed one of my expansions and my entire army!! Well, sell your supply depots that you don't need to keep your factories going. Certianly opens for new more macroing. 4) Allowing to build units faster but to a higher price. This could be some upgrade, or come from the start or be availible only for certain units. As you want. Build the cheap scvs to get a fast expansion, or build the expensive scvs to get faster income early? 5) Premining. I suggested this in another thread.  You could have workers go to a mineralpatch and start packing the minerals in packs of 8 minerals, but not bring them to the nexus. Then later other workers can come and get the packets without having to stay at the patch and extract it. Would be used mainly before your expansion nexus is done I guess. Have 12 drones prepack the minerals, and then when the nexus warps in you will mine really fast for a short while until you have taken all the packets.There are more. So I say again: Macro is one of the things that makes sc:bw great. For sc2, EVOLVE the macro! Do not conserve it. Take another step. Let us help blizzard find good strategy-demanding macrotasks we can occupy ourselves with instead of clicking through barracks. | ||
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Wizard
Poland5055 Posts
On September 04 2007 07:14 Jyvblamo wrote: I think Tasteless would prefer if the hypothetical "competitive mode" of SC2 had the exact same interface as SC1. That'd be great to be honest. | ||
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
On September 04 2007 07:49 Cascade wrote: I see the point of both sides here. A toggle would be great and everyone could do as they want. Perfect. BUT: it could divide the comunity a bit having too many toggles for a game. You enter a game and it turns out to have the toggle set the way you do not like. You leave? Or should you choose when you search for games? automatch a game of my skillevel with all toggles my way. With only a few toggles it would reduce the number of availible players by a lot. Nevermind, I'll be constructive: MBS and automining will reduce the time you ned for macroing those tasks. It is important that blizzard gives us new MACROING tasks to fill this time up!! Leave the time for micro and we get war3, or it becomes boring to play as was said in the OP. These new macrotasks could be not only challenging not only in terms of handspeed, but also include some decision making. Clikcing through 8 gateways or setting drones to mine speed the game up, but they do not require any decisions to be made. Lets give us new tasks requiring the same speed, but ALSO some decisionmaking! Lets evolve the macroing, not just preserve it! I do not know exactly what these new tasks would be, but I will give you some examples from other threads, some things that are allready in the game, and some own idea, JUST TO DEMONSTARTE WHAT I MEAN. So please do not say "stupid ideas" without commenting on the concept itself! 1) The addon for terran that maks you build faster. 2) The protoss ability to warp in at different locations. "should I upgrade my gateway to a warpgate?" Where should I warp in my troops? More new macro tasks! (it could be discussed if this really is macro...) 3) Selling buildings back. OMG he killed one of my expansions and my entire army!! Well, sell your supply depots that you don't need to keep your factories going. Certianly opens for new more macroing. 4) Allowing to build units faster but to a higher price. This could be some upgrade, or come from the start or be availible only for certain units. As you want. Build the cheap scvs to get a fast expansion, or build the expensive scvs to get faster income early? 5) Premining. I suggested this in another thread. You could have workers go to a mineralpatch and start packing the minerals in packs of 8 minerals, but not bring them to the nexus. Then later other workers can come and get the packets without having to stay at the patch and extract it. Would be used mainly before your expansion nexus is done I guess. Have 12 drones prepack the minerals, and then when the nexus warps in you will mine really fast for a short while until you have taken all the packets.There are more. So I say again: Macro is one of the things that makes sc:bw great. For sc2, EVOLVE the macro! Do not conserve it. Take another step. Let us help blizzard find good strategy-demanding macrotasks we can occupy ourselves with instead of clicking through barracks. I honestly am 100% for these new macro features, I think starcraft's essence was not really the physically demanding tasks (b/c to be honest clicking repeatedly is not that hard) but the fact that you had to constantly keep your mind on them while doing dozens of other things. I believe it is the ability to multi-tasking that's important. So like Cascade has said, if you remove some nuisance, you are going to HAVE to add some more things to keep and occupy the players' attention. That being said I don't care if MBS stays or goes but auto-mining has to go, it's a big part of macroing if you ask me (controlling your workers, i mean). | ||
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ocoini
648 Posts
What exactly is good about ANY of the new interface features? Someone tell me why SC2 needs it's interface and gameplay mechanics changed at all. I can't think of a single one that would make Starcraft more competative.. And i've read my average Starcraft addict share of SC2(pre-game) info by now. I don't even like waypoint building, auto repairing, auto scarabs,interceptors, resources shown on un-explored fog-of-war, health overlay... etc..etc.. Totally unecessary things. For me atleast, Starcraft is not fun because of the shooting and killing in it, it's the gameplay, how the game is played that is fun to me. The micro is such a tiny fraction of the game, and its not what makes Starcraft fun for me. I like it that I have to manually click each of my barracks because I never learnt how to use ctrl groups on buildings. Love the sound it makes, its too cute! etc... I don't want help!! Im totally okay with getting beaten by players that I would woop if we had the same economy. If I really wanted to own, i would practise my macro all day long. I choose not to, but the choice should be there for thoose that want to excell in the game. They should be able to have the option of playing like lunes and becoming better than others. It is about speed and timeing, and it should stay like that. We are still playing Starcraft now because we love it right, so with this massive fanbase in place wouldnt they want to make a sequal that stays true to the original, and not rock the boat? I just don't get it None of the new features promotes Starcraft as a sport whatsoever. Only makes it easier to play, and kills of a large part of the massive multitasking we know is required from great Starcrafters. I don't know about haveing a "pro-mode".. I would vote no, if I had to pick one now, but havent given it much thought.. Better for the community to have everyone playing the same instrument maybe? Totally adore all the people that work at Blizzard<3, and SC2 will be kickass as singleplayer. But from what i've seen and read so far; they are moveing too far away from Starcraft. And I don't think I will be interested in playing another game for a long period of time that doesnt feel like the original Starcraft when I play it. WCG 09 - Broodwar is still king ? i dunno | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
You can ctrl click larvae. It's the same concept, just applied to all races. Automine = JESUS FUCKING CHRIST BLIZZARD WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU THINKING | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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orangedude
Canada220 Posts
While togglable options for ladder/competitive play is one solution, I honestly believe there's no way Blizzard will ever implement something like that. It'll just divide the player base and make people unhappy (no one likes to think they're playing on "easy mode"). It just won't realistically work and we have to accept that fact. As mentioned before, I still think the best way to handle MBS is by having the ability to select all your buildings and being forced to tab through them one by one. This allows you to choose your unit combination effectively and still keep a lot of the actions in as well. Regarding auto-mining, I'm pretty sure it's going to be in no matter what we say. It was already in War3, and I really doubt they'll change the interface back from what they already have. But again, by implementing the TABBING through the CCs one by one this really shouldn't be as big of a deal as it is now. | ||
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teh leet newb
United States1999 Posts
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CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11568 Posts
Warcraft 3 has been out for a good amount of time, a few years, and they have less players than a game that is twice its age! Doesn't it make you wonder why? Why is Starcraft so popular? What would make someone to choose Starcraft, a game that has been on the market, 10 years this upcoming winter, when there are games with newer interfaces, newer and more advanced graphics, and everyone is leveled out in the beginning to allow an early start to become a reknown player such as Boxer who was known within a year after the game was out. That could be you! You can be the next boxer! All you have to do, is choose what game to play! But as you can see obviously, these games don't even last very long. The new C&C Tiberian Wars for example, is doing horrible. I personally went 40-2 in the game, and I never played the C&C's that came before it. Is that what we are trying to do? Do you really want it possible for someone who has NEVER before played a game with no knowledge of build orders and timing to be able to do so well? I personally do not. When we think about what can make Starcraft II such a great game, we have to think about what it is going to be based on. Starcraft: Brood War obviously will be the answer. We all know for a fact, since we all view TeamLiquid that Starcraft: Brood War is one of the most competitive games out there, we have prize purses of hundreds of thousands of dollars, players have fan clubs of hundreds of thousands, and people are making a living off playing a game! While that is at the professional league, we have players who don't even play in the competitive scene, nor are they even AWARE of it. Yet they have happily doing their business being a fan of the game that we all love. If we are going to make Starcraft II a competitor in the RTS Competitive scene, we have to understand what makes games stable in that scene. First of all, we need a skill differential between those who play hours on end to get good, and keep that skill, and those who play one game a week, playing vs random computers on a fastest map possible. Of course we will want the person who plays 12 hours a day, perfecting every tiny detail about their play to be able to win flawlessly against the latter. By taking away things that people take months to perfect, such as automining, and auto-repair, auto-building interceptors etc... takes away things that people spend months, if not years to perfect. The skill gap will be greatly reduced. Multiple Building Selection once again, takes away that gap that differentiates a skilled learned player and one who just bought the game that week. It is a known fact that Starcraft is a macro-orientated game. For instance, we focus our times timing expansions, build orders, reacting to our opponents build orders, creating the right amount and type of units, the production of supplies, or in starcraft II's case, food, building production, etc... When we take away things that make Starcraft what it is, it loses that feeling. I have not played Starcraft II, but just through all of the press, it seems as if it is being more orientated to micro. Why should a player such as the monster, cheater terran (iloveoov), give up his amazing skills so someone who just bought the game can preform in macro management in such a way that it competes with him. I think it is a very poor decision that blizzard is partaking in reducing the things that make Starcraft such a skill differentiated game, and lowering that skill gap to allow players be able to play just as well if not better than those who practice hundreds of hours every week? | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
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EpiK
Korea (South)5757 Posts
On September 04 2007 11:12 CaucasianAsian wrote: This is probably one of the very few threads that I ever would even bother replying in. Just the idea of making auto-mine, auto-repair, auto-build, multiple building selection, yada yada yada is disgusting to me. What has caused us as Starcraft players to want to drift towards the things that games such as Warcraft 3, and Command and Conquer contains, when they are not even nearly as great in popularity and skill gap. Warcraft 3 has been out for a good amount of time, a few years, and they have less players than a game that is twice its age! Doesn't it make you wonder why? Why is Starcraft so popular? What would make someone to choose Starcraft, a game that has been on the market, 10 years this upcoming winter, when there are games with newer interfaces, newer and more advanced graphics, and everyone is leveled out in the beginning to allow an early start to become a reknown player such as Boxer who was known within a year after the game was out. That could be you! You can be the next boxer! All you have to do, is choose what game to play! But as you can see obviously, these games don't even last very long. The new C&C Tiberian Wars for example, is doing horrible. I personally went 40-2 in the game, and I never played the C&C's that came before it. Is that what we are trying to do? Do you really want it possible for someone who has NEVER before played a game with no knowledge of build orders and timing to be able to do so well? I personally do not. When we think about what can make Starcraft II such a great game, we have to think about what it is going to be based on. Starcraft: Brood War obviously will be the answer. We all know for a fact, since we all view TeamLiquid that Starcraft: Brood War is one of the most competitive games out there, we have prize purses of hundreds of thousands of dollars, players have fan clubs of hundreds of thousands, and people are making a living off playing a game! While that is at the professional league, we have players who don't even play in the competitive scene, nor are they even AWARE of it. Yet they have happily doing their business being a fan of the game that we all love. If we are going to make Starcraft II a competitor in the RTS Competitive scene, we have to understand what makes games stable in that scene. First of all, we need a skill differential between those who play hours on end to get good, and keep that skill, and those who play one game a week, playing vs random computers on a fastest map possible. Of course we will want the person who plays 12 hours a day, perfecting every tiny detail about their play to be able to win flawlessly against the latter. By taking away things that people take months to perfect, such as automining, and auto-repair, auto-building interceptors etc... takes away things that people spend months, if not years to perfect. The skill gap will be greatly reduced. Multiple Building Selection once again, takes away that gap that differentiates a skilled learned player and one who just bought the game that week. It is a known fact that Starcraft is a macro-orientated game. For instance, we focus our times timing expansions, build orders, reacting to our opponents build orders, creating the right amount and type of units, the production of supplies, or in starcraft II's case, food, building production, etc... When we take away things that make Starcraft what it is, it loses that feeling. I have not played Starcraft II, but just through all of the press, it seems as if it is being more orientated to micro. Why should a player such as the monster, cheater terran (iloveoov), give up his amazing skills so someone who just bought the game can preform in macro management in such a way that it competes with him. I think it is a very poor decision that blizzard is partaking in reducing the things that make Starcraft such a skill differentiated game, and lowering that skill gap to allow players be able to play just as well if not better than those who practice hundreds of hours every week? QFT to the max. Yes, change is sometimes good, but MBS and automine will just totally pollute the original pure essence of starcraft. Screw the newbies, satisfy the true fans first. | ||
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OrderlyChaos
United States1115 Posts
EDIT: This question isn't just about MBS/automine. I'm genuinely wondering how Blizz would plan on attracting new people w/o new features. | ||
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Fuu
198 Posts
On September 04 2007 08:14 ocoini wrote: Don't we love Starcraft anymore? Shouldnt we be screaming at them for changeing how the game is played? Or is the Starcraft generation too old to really care now? What exactly is good about ANY of the new interface features? Someone tell me why SC2 needs it's interface and gameplay mechanics changed at all. I can't think of a single one that would make Starcraft more competative.. And i've read my average Starcraft addict share of SC2(pre-game) info by now. I don't even like waypoint building, auto repairing, auto scarabs,interceptors, resources shown on un-explored fog-of-war, health overlay... etc..etc.. Totally unecessary things. For me atleast, Starcraft is not fun because of the shooting and killing in it, it's the gameplay, how the game is played that is fun to me. The micro is such a tiny fraction of the game, and its not what makes Starcraft fun for me. I like it that I have to manually click each of my barracks because I never learnt how to use ctrl groups on buildings. Love the sound it makes, its too cute! etc... I don't want help!! Im totally okay with getting beaten by players that I would woop if we had the same economy. If I really wanted to own, i would practise my macro all day long. I choose not to, but the choice should be there for thoose that want to excell in the game. They should be able to have the option of playing like lunes and becoming better than others. It is about speed and timeing, and it should stay like that. We are still playing Starcraft now because we love it right, so with this massive fanbase in place wouldnt they want to make a sequal that stays true to the original, and not rock the boat? I just don't get it None of the new features promotes Starcraft as a sport whatsoever. Only makes it easier to play, and kills of a large part of the massive multitasking we know is required from great Starcrafters. I don't know about haveing a "pro-mode".. I would vote no, if I had to pick one now, but havent given it much thought.. Better for the community to have everyone playing the same instrument maybe? Totally adore all the people that work at Blizzard<3, and SC2 will be kickass as singleplayer. But from what i've seen and read so far; they are moveing too far away from Starcraft. And I don't think I will be interested in playing another game for a long period of time that doesnt feel like the original Starcraft when I play it. WCG 09 - Broodwar is still king ? i dunno Unfortunatly the starcraft 2 target customers are not reduced to the true starcraft lovers. As someone said above me, Blizzard has to do these changes to attract the nowadays newbs, even if it screws the game. Actually, i am sure most of the people posting in these sc2 forums don't really know why the game is still played & loved 9 years after its creation. Most of fans are just switchers, thus want things to evolve in order to enjoy the game ! Evolve in a good way? in a bad way? It doesnt matter, they want the interface to "progress", in the sense it's easier. They use arguments like 'people should not fight against the interface anymore' without even thinking that, maybe, this very fight is what makes the game so great... Actually, you almost never see a regular tl poster with a decent level posting in this crappy sc2 forum (especially the ones following the progaming scene closely). There are some though, and their view is usually very interesting and constructive. Usually, the guys who know the game better and can have a healthy view of the situation don't want to spend their time fighting against the outnumbering war3 teenagers, who're happy to be able to quit the previous played game without changing their lazy habits. As you said, the starcraft generation is probably getting too old. In fact, i agree totally when you say most of these new things are totally useless ; it is useless in the sense it is not needed, not more fun, but for sure RISKY as hell to implement. Noone can predict what will be the real impact on the game, especially given the current development advance. But for sure there's nothing really 'good' or needed in most of them. Of course it's not critical cause sc2 will still be a good game, certainly far better than other recent RTS. But as it's too often the case, people will be happy with it and the switch will be massive, as it was in the past. Most of the good players will also switch cause money will be on line. The true and only remaining hope will be the korean pro scene. It will be impossible to run a successful league for years if the game is not as competitive. Public won't pay and force themsleves to watch a boring show. There is a lot of money involve here as well, so if the game doesn't meet the expectations, it will be abandonned after some time, and hopefully sc will live. Now, if you think the game will be as competitive if MBS, automining, along with all the automatic features mentionned above are settled, then we disagree. I respect the Nony's points when he says macro is not about clicking. Even with MBS, it will still play a role. However, i believe a side of the problem is missed here as well (though many people have already pointed it) : The point is how you split your attention in the game !!!!!! Clicking buildings, clicking peons is not really time consuming, but it requires concern and attention, more than doing 4z or using the wonderful Idle button (what the fuck is that?). The attention level you grant to these clicking actions is very important, and also fun somehow. It explains difference of levels, why defense has usually advantage over attack, why when you spend time on microing perfectly it's almost impossible to macro flawlessly. It allows spectacular come backs : imagine, as tasteless say, everything is settled in the game, you have an economic advantage and produce on ten gates ; nowadays, you can see sloppy play due to a drop of this very attention. Now i'll just produce on my 10 or twenty gates pushing two fucking buttons... Once again, i cant be sure that all will be a great threat if implemented. As nobody can be sure it won't affect the game deeply. In all the cases, these automatic changes seem to be really useless features, given the risks they represent for the game interest. | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2932 Posts
If MBS then all of the BW players that tried wc3 and didnt like it wont do SC2. If there isnt MBS then all of the BW players that tried Wc3 and were like "hot digity damn" will wont play SC2. Wc3 is not noobified, but its definatley totally different from bw. This is one of those things that cant come to a conclusion. Blizzard has to decide, do we make 'pro MBS happy' or 'anti MBS happy' or will they go in a 'pro choice' direction. | ||
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[Clean]Soap
Mexico15 Posts
SC2 could be the hardest game ever created and it will still sell like a legal $1 an hour clean hott fresh hooker when it comes out so if its just as hard as sc it wont hurt sales at all =P it will only improve its future competitive scene --; when sc:bw came out, did it sell like shit, mediocer, or decently good? -_- people arent gona care about how ez it is, they have to buy the game first, and a demo will proably just get them addicticted and want more of it, even if its hard as fuck only good can come out of removing MBS and automining =P | ||
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
On September 04 2007 11:54 OrderlyChaos wrote: With a "screw-the-newbies" attitude, how is Blizzard going to sell SC2 to an audience beyond the current BW/WC3 players? I'd think that they'd need new people to play the game... EDIT: This question isn't just about MBS/automine. I'm genuinely wondering how Blizz would plan on attracting new people w/o new features. I don't think that really affects initial sales, especially with AMM. Newbies have plenty of newbies to play, and they don't realize the potential of what really good people can do. When I played 3v3 BGH with a 60 apm and 2 friends years ago, I won 90% of the time. Even without AMM there was separation because of different maps (money vs non) and game types (3v3 vs 1v1), and this allows the game to fit everyone. Newbifying the game (the opposite approach) severely impacts the long-term sales though. What other games are still being sold 9 1/2 years after their release? In addition to that, setting up franchising fees will result in a lot more profit for Blizzard compared to if the game never has a pro scene. Maybe I'm missing something logically, but it seems like catering to pros (but with AMM) seems like it will maximize their profits. | ||
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