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competitive play issues - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
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alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
September 06 2007 15:35 GMT
#241
i say everyone should stop giving such fucking extreme examples to support their point because those exaggerations are totally useless and pointless
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
September 06 2007 15:40 GMT
#242
The newb -> Player progression should be as smooth and fast as possible, while Modest Player -> Perfection should only be possible theoretically.

Player meaning someone who can actually play like it´s "intended" even if not as fast or refined as proffessionals. Somewhat like Pre-test - drivers license - Racer. Getting the "drivers license" of SC 2 has to be as easy as possible.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-06 16:22:02
September 06 2007 15:45 GMT
#243
On September 06 2007 12:44 1esu wrote:
If it's really true that someone could beat you while being inferior in other aspects of the game simply because something like 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z becoming 4z for both of you, then SC really does deserve the moniker of a "clickfest". I don't believe that's the case, even without the new features Blizzard is adding. On the other hand, if the game feels "too slow", I have faith that either the new features will fill the gap or increase macro in other ways (like the warpgates), or the game speed will be increased again. If we go into closed beta and even after all of this it feels that MBS/auto-mine is killing SC2, then I'll be the first to advocate taking it out. But until then, even though TL experiences with the early alpha version of the game were not optimistic (though I'd like to hear whether the game was still boring when the players were of equal skill), I think we should wait until closed beta and play the game before we publicly render judgement upon MBS or automine.

EDIT: Limiting MBS to say, three per group, was my original solution, but upon further reflection I realized that it was a rather arbitrary limitation; people would look at it and wonder why they couldn't select more per group, just like they did with SC's 12-per-group unit limitation. Perhaps tabbing through groups of three buildings, or tabbing through buildings at different areas of the map (determined by a certain radius) would be a good alternate solution to throwing MBS out entirely, but again I'd advocate us playing it for ourselves before we stamp it out.

No, I said without being significantly superior in the other aspects.

IE: I don't want someone who is as good at the game as me theoetically and microwise to be able to beat me when he can't macro worth shit, just because the importance of the physical aspect of macro has been trivialized.

On September 06 2007 12:15 SoMuchBetter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2007 04:41 MyLostTemple wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

I've just read through this entire thread. A lot of interesting points brought up. Let me remind everyone that this discussion is not JUST about MBS and automining. It's about making these features a setting that can only be used in public games. Thus keeping the good people still able to compete in the manner they did in the original SC

You can break all sports into two basic parts: The strategic element and the physical aspect

there is incredible strategy weaved within all sports: baseball, soccer, football, tennis, racket ball, boxing, wrestling, starcraft etc

SC2 has less of a physical aspect than SC. They've turned baseball into tee ball. That ball is a lot easier to hit when it isn't moving huh? Well maybe one fun part of the game was the challenge of hitting a moving ball. As we all know, baseball > tee ball as far as skill and competition goes. But making a game that requires less dexterity (lower apm) they are reducing physical aspect which made the original starcraft so fucking awsome.

Let me use another sport, this time with pictures:

Starcraft as golf
[image loading]

Starcraft 2 turned into minature golf due to MBS and auto mining.
[image loading]

Before you respond to this, look at your keyboard. Does it have missing keys?... like the windows ones? You might not even be playing starcraft correctly... This is what mine looks like:

[image loading]

At the bare minimum do you have your windows keys missing? are you using your entire keyboard when you play (i'm talking about the keys that actually work in sc)? Do you bind all the number keys when you play?... from 1 to 0? do you know every hotkey for your race? I mean everything--from special upgrades to unit hot keys. Do you use all five fingers? Do you know which fingers to use on which keys? Most starcraft players don't. Even the die hard ones. They spend too much time looking at the screen and less time looking at their hands. There's a reason why those koreans have such high apm. I just want that same feel in the new starcraft. I'll be sad if new players pick up starcraft 2 and start laddering with the computer playing the game for them. This is essentially the autocast of macroing.

Again, i only care about this for ladder/competitive play. If you want your buildings all bound to one key and your probes going to minerals the second they get out--fine, but don't expect to be a progamer. Don't expect to be the best. MBS and auto mining deter from the very elements that make the game competitive.

What about all these progamers, people who devoted their lives to starcraft, mastering these skills and falling in love with them. MBS and automining is a spit in the face for these people, the ones who know the game far better than Blizzard does. Blizzard should be building off what made the game successful, not "fixing" it. I can only assume that Blizzard wants MBS to bring a new type of macro into starcraft. However that macro type seems to be a much slower, much easier one. One that involves less apm and less concentration. One that is centered around memorizing when different unit combos are coming up and then rebinding gateways accordingly. Hmm... Should be quite easy to master with the computer making sure my probes mine for me when they pop out.

Again, if you don't like the difficulty and demanding dexterity of starcraft then that's fine. But don't fuck up Starcraft because this game was too hard for you. Play another game. Keep MBS and automining as a setting and keep it out of the esports scene.

[image loading]

That's how I roll already tho, I'd need a second television if the game got slower!
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-06 15:58:11
September 06 2007 15:57 GMT
#244
On September 07 2007 00:31 InRaged wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2007 23:37 Hawk wrote:
WHy is it that peolpe who want to argue for newbifying macroing want to use the most retarded analogies to back their views?

Maybe cause those who against UI improvements are saying even more retarted: "with mbs and auto-mining macro, competition and all great things that made starcraft popular will die"?

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MADE STARCRAFT POPULAR WILL DIE.

ONE

It just happens to be pretty important.

On September 07 2007 00:17 YinYang69 wrote:
How is it retarded? The old warcraft games require more manual exertion and less automation. Isn't that what we want? At least write a well written reply back instead of a two sentence bash.

I don't need 2 sentences, I need 1 word: BALANCE.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32075 Posts
September 06 2007 16:15 GMT
#245
On September 07 2007 00:57 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2007 00:31 InRaged wrote:
On September 06 2007 23:37 Hawk wrote:
WHy is it that peolpe who want to argue for newbifying macroing want to use the most retarded analogies to back their views?

Maybe cause those who against UI improvements are saying even more retarted: "with mbs and auto-mining macro, competition and all great things that made starcraft popular will die"?

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MADE STARCRAFT POPULAR WILL DIE.

ONE

It just happens to be pretty important.

Show nested quote +
On September 07 2007 00:17 YinYang69 wrote:
How is it retarded? The old warcraft games require more manual exertion and less automation. Isn't that what we want? At least write a well written reply back instead of a two sentence bash.

I don't need 2 sentences, I need 1 word: BALANCE.


FA explained it all there.
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
September 06 2007 16:25 GMT
#246
So you're just afraid someone with better micro will beat you since you can't rely on your macro? lol... SBS made SC popular, lol... this should be advertised on the box at the least, rofl.
I'll call Nada.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
September 06 2007 16:43 GMT
#247
..
The pace created by SBS is one of the things that contributed to making SC popular, yes.
And you are purposefully trying to not understand what I'm saying.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32075 Posts
September 06 2007 16:48 GMT
#248
On September 07 2007 01:25 lololol wrote:
So you're just afraid someone with better micro will beat you since you can't rely on your macro? lol... SBS made SC popular, lol... this should be advertised on the box at the least, rofl.


Or maybe I don't really want to see starcraft become a one-dimensional game?
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-06 17:16:45
September 06 2007 17:05 GMT
#249
Here's an example:

Player A's skillset, graded on a scale of 1 to 5 with 5 being the best:

Theorycraft (IE, knowing what to do) - 5
Micro-application (ie his mechanical micro skill) - 5
Macro-theory (expansion timing, building timing) - 5
Macro-application - (ie his technique, his 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z, whatever) - 5

I don't want to see this player lose his edge in macro application vs Player B

Player B
Theorycraft (IE, knowing what to do) - 5
Micro-application (ie his mechanical micro skill) - 5
Macro-theory (expansion timing, building timing) - 5
Macro-application - (ie his technique, his 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z, whatever) - 3

Do you see what I mean? If macro-technique is made easier player A loses some of his edge, let's say MBS makes Player B a 4 or a 4.5, it's just ridiculous.

+ I honestly think I'll miss the 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z a lot :[
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-06 17:28:14
September 06 2007 17:21 GMT
#250
If it makes player B 4, then it will make player A 6 ^_^ Also, just pumping units from several buildings one after the other requires mostly mouse/keyboard speed/coordination, which is also needed when grouping your army, placing buildings, practically everything, including micro, so there's enough things that use the very same type of "skill".

P.S. I definitely won't miss my fingers hurting after a long and intense games, from pumping so many units individually.
I'll call Nada.
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
September 06 2007 17:28 GMT
#251
No it doesn't. Speed will have diminishing returns where there is less things to do.
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
Stegosaur
Profile Joined May 2007
Netherlands1231 Posts
September 06 2007 17:29 GMT
#252
The 'pro-MBS/improvements-whatever' crowd seems to forget, that many people enjoy the macro aspect of BW. Macro is in no way inferior to micro, heck it's one of the most fun parts of the game. Being able to vastly outnumber your opponent simply because you practiced macro more. It's one of the reasons BW became what it is.

Don't try to trivialize it.
O_o
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-06 17:31:41
September 06 2007 17:30 GMT
#253
On September 07 2007 02:28 Aphelion wrote:
No it doesn't. Speed will have diminishing returns where there is less things to do.


No pro is able to do everything, they have to prioritize and delay or don't do some things at all, just because it's very far from humanly possible to play a perfect game, a little help in that direction will still leave the game far from achievable perfection and higher speed will always be rewarded.
Even the much slower WC3 still has distinguishable skill and a few dominating pro players.
I'll call Nada.
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
September 06 2007 18:11 GMT
#254
But the macro aspect of broodwar will be a miniscule prioritization because it takes so little. If you have MBS you could easily have perfect macro with 70-80 apm. That leaves 200+ apm for pure micro. Thats not balance in my book.
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
Brutalisk
Profile Joined February 2007
794 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-06 19:06:25
September 06 2007 19:01 GMT
#255
On September 07 2007 02:29 Stegosaur wrote:
The 'pro-MBS/improvements-whatever' crowd seems to forget, that many people enjoy the macro aspect of BW. Macro is in no way inferior to micro, heck it's one of the most fun parts of the game. Being able to vastly outnumber your opponent simply because you practiced macro more. It's one of the reasons BW became what it is.

Don't try to trivialize it.


You will still be able to do that. For example: Oov, widely considered to be a macro whore (although other players have since appeared who have even better macro IMHO, but that's irrelevant now), isn't good at macro because he's faster than his opponents. Most pros have similar speed/APM (around 250+). That hand speed is actually one of the primary requirements to become a progamer (some coach or team boss once said that). So why is Oov's macro better? Mainly because he has better builds, better timing, he knows when it's best to build units/factories/barracks/workers, when to expand, and how to cripple his enemy's economy. Because of all the other macro aspects except speed. And all these aspects are still there with MBS.

So let's face it, the contra-MBS crowd is vastly exaggerating by saying that it would totally newbify macro or remove it or destroy the game or make it useless for progaming. MBS won't have such a big impact. It will be helpful, especially for newbies, but less so for good players. It will feel awkward at first for the hardcore SC players, but that will almost definately change over time.
MyLostTemple *
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2921 Posts
September 06 2007 19:06 GMT
#256
On September 07 2007 02:21 lololol wrote:
If it makes player B 4, then it will make player A 6 ^_^ Also, just pumping units from several buildings one after the other requires mostly mouse/keyboard speed/coordination, which is also needed when grouping your army, placing buildings, practically everything, including micro, so there's enough things that use the very same type of "skill".

P.S. I definitely won't miss my fingers hurting after a long and intense games, from pumping so many units individually.


you should have learned how to play this game. seriously. your fingers hurt after a starcraft game? your using your mouse and your keyboard to macro? what the fuck? 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d man, not click d click d click d and so on. i taught my girl friend how to macro like a korean in two hours. she can 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d across the keyboard with her hands which are only half the size of mine. obviously she's not as fast as me, but the point is that learning the beginning patterns to macro shouldn't be so hard that they need to be removed.

How about this, why don't you post a FPvod of yourself. Show us how great your building placement is, your micro, your very grasp on the strategy behind starcraft. Lets see if that isn't just as sloppy as your macro is. I find it hard to believe your good at all these things but your weak baby hands hold you back from fully enjoying this game.

In fact, i bet if i sat behind you and watched you play, i'd see you not using all your fingers, holding your hands funny and hotkeying incorrectly.

Would you like to know a little secret? mastering the keyboard in starcraft is quite easy, you just need some discipline and some ambition. Go into single player and type in Operation Cwal and show me the money. make 7 gates and start practicing 4d5d6d7d890d with the pinky finger on 'd' and the other fingers on the keys that feel most comfortable. Practice makes perfect. Don't argue these qualities out of the game because you never learned them.
Follow me on twitter: CallMeTasteless
YinYang69
Profile Joined July 2007
United States255 Posts
September 06 2007 19:26 GMT
#257
How about instead of arguing about the new UI changes we try to come up with ideas on how to add more macro oriented task in the game? I doubt blizzard is not going to implement the UI upgrades cause they are kind of mandatory in these days and age.
Keep it simple stupid.
MyLostTemple *
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2921 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-06 19:30:08
September 06 2007 19:28 GMT
#258
everyone, if your clicking to make units then you never even learned how to hotkey buildings and macro while watching the minimap and microing.

macro is not a cluster fuck of too many clicks, there should be hardly any clicking when you macro. It's ALL done with your left hand. In other words if you click on your gateways or hatcheries and then hit the hotkey to produce... your playing the game incorrectly and there is actually an easier and superior method to playing sc. Surprisingly there are people all over this forum who haven't learned this and seem unaware of this alternate method of playing sc. If that's the case, i suggest you learn how to correctly play the game before you start vouching for a new method. You may find hotkey combing as fun as micro. I know i do.

On September 07 2007 04:26 YinYang69 wrote:
How about instead of arguing about the new UI changes we try to come up with ideas on how to add more macro oriented task in the game? I doubt blizzard is not going to implement the UI upgrades cause they are kind of mandatory in these days and age.


indeed they are mandatory, but not for competitive play.
Follow me on twitter: CallMeTasteless
MyLostTemple *
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2921 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-06 19:30:22
September 06 2007 19:29 GMT
#259
double post
Follow me on twitter: CallMeTasteless
Doctorasul
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Romania1145 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-06 19:33:00
September 06 2007 19:32 GMT
#260
I've got it!

Let only one race of P/T have MBS and let the other have classic single building selection. Factions are even more different than before, true?

And Z should be so different that MBS/SBS should not matter or lose meaning altogether!
"I believe in Spinoza's god who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings." - Albert Einstein
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