EPTTo the bottom poster nah I wasn't replying to you. Your message didn't even show up when I was typing.
competitive play issues - Page 14
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YinYang69
United States255 Posts
To the bottom poster nah I wasn't replying to you. Your message didn't even show up when I was typing. | ||
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Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On September 07 2007 04:32 YinYang69 wrote: We can't just segregate the community and have two modes of play. Everyone will just migrate to one mode and the other one will just die out. yes we can because that already happened. BGH and low money maps. Have either of those died out? Apparently not because every time i look at public games i see lists of BGH maps and every time i get on ICCUP i see a group of passionate competitive gamers. The point is that this game has to be an esport that can compare to the original starcraft. Do you really want to butcher the idea of making this game as difficult as the first one? You speak about Starcraft like it FAILED as an esport because of these features when in fact it succeeded because of it. Some people like intensity and challenge, others like BGH. I don't condemn bgh players because they play an easier game, i just accept the fact they don't want to master everything. I don't condemn MBS players because they want to play an easier game either, i just accept that they don't want to master macro. Just keep them off ladders and in public games and let the pros play in professional mode (non mbs and non automining). | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On September 07 2007 04:34 Aphelion wrote: Tasteless I know you've posted this before, but if you could make a detailed post / thread about how to train keyboard usage, hand positioning, exact fingering corresponding to keys while macroing that might be the single greatest strategy post ever. i'll start making one. maybe a video or something. | ||
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YinYang69
United States255 Posts
On September 07 2007 04:41 MyLostTemple wrote: yes we can because that already happened. BGH and low money maps. Have either of those died out? Apparently not because every time i look at public games i see lists of BGH maps and every time i get on ICCUP i see a group of passionate competitive gamers. The point is that this game has to be an esport that can compare to the original starcraft. Do you really want to butcher the idea of making this game as difficult as the first one? You speak about Starcraft like it FAILED as an esport because of these features when in fact it succeeded because of it. Some people like intensity and challenge, others like BGH. I don't condemn bgh players because they play an easier game, i just accept the fact they don't want to master everything. I don't condemn MBS players because they want to play an easier game either, i just accept that they don't want to master macro. Just keep them off ladders and in public games and let the pros play in professional mode (non mbs and non automining). I don't know. I don't think fastest map player/competitive ladder players can be compare to having two different modes of play. I think a fairer comparison is team melee/melee. No one plays team melee, everyone just sticks to melee. And can we really keep MBS/auto mining off the ladder without a huge backlash from the starcraft 2 community that will eventually form? If everyone is playing with their friend the new hunters map with all the UI changes and step up to plate on blizzard ladder and find out the UI is completely different there is going to be a rather large angry fanbase. So then we get pro mode/normal mode and I'm just haphazardly guessing that pro mode is going to have a niche fanbase and eventually die cause everyone and their mother is playing normal mode. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 07 2007 04:28 MyLostTemple wrote: everyone, if your clicking to make units then you never even learned how to hotkey buildings and macro while watching the minimap and microing. macro is not a cluster fuck of too many clicks, there should be hardly any clicking when you macro. It's ALL done with your left hand. In other words if you click on your gateways or hatcheries and then hit the hotkey to produce... your playing the game incorrectly and there is actually an easier and superior method to playing sc. Surprisingly there are people all over this forum who haven't learned this and seem unaware of this alternate method of playing sc. If that's the case, i suggest you learn how to correctly play the game before you start vouching for a new method. You may find hotkey combing as fun as micro. I know i do. indeed they are mandatory, but not for competitive play. That's incorrect, really, I'm almost 100% certain iloveoov clicks through his 15 raxes with his mouse, only some of them are hotkeyed. And there's simply not enough hotkeys to not have to use your mouse, I don't use my mouse for macro until I run out of hotkeys but after that, in the late game, you have to. On September 07 2007 04:06 MyLostTemple wrote: you should have learned how to play this game. seriously. your fingers hurt after a starcraft game? your using your mouse and your keyboard to macro? what the fuck? 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d man, not click d click d click d and so on. i taught my girl friend how to macro like a korean in two hours. she can 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d across the keyboard with her hands which are only half the size of mine. obviously she's not as fast as me, but the point is that learning the beginning patterns to macro shouldn't be so hard that they need to be removed. How about this, why don't you post a FPvod of yourself. Show us how great your building placement is, your micro, your very grasp on the strategy behind starcraft. Lets see if that isn't just as sloppy as your macro is. I find it hard to believe your good at all these things but your weak baby hands hold you back from fully enjoying this game. In fact, i bet if i sat behind you and watched you play, i'd see you not using all your fingers, holding your hands funny and hotkeying incorrectly. Would you like to know a little secret? mastering the keyboard in starcraft is quite easy, you just need some discipline and some ambition. Go into single player and type in Operation Cwal and show me the money. make 7 gates and start practicing 4d5d6d7d890d with the pinky finger on 'd' and the other fingers on the keys that feel most comfortable. Practice makes perfect. Don't argue these qualities out of the game because you never learned them. Well, I play 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z etc, but your fingers WILL be sore after you've played for 30 games straight. Not always obv. but if it's cold, or if you've done it for a long time it's natural they'll get tired  | ||
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Chodorkovskiy
Israel459 Posts
On September 07 2007 05:01 FrozenArbiter wrote: That's incorrect, really, I'm almost 100% certain iloveoov clicks through his 15 raxes with his mouse, only some of them are hotkeyed. And there's simply not enough hotkeys to not have to use your mouse, I don't use my mouse for macro until I run out of hotkeys but after that, in the late game, you have to. Well, I play 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z etc, but your fingers WILL be sore after you've played for 30 games straight. Not always obv. but if it's cold, or if you've done it for a long time it's natural they'll get tired I don't mean to detract from the valid points made earlier (you guys actually managed to scare me into thinking MBS and auto-mining really are bad for SCII), but aren't those reasons to implement the new UI after all? | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32027 Posts
On September 07 2007 05:11 Chodorkovskiy wrote: I don't mean to detract from the valid points made earlier (you guys actually managed to scare me into thinking MBS and auto-mining really are bad for SCII), but aren't those reasons to implement the new UI after all? if you're playing 30 games a day average... =x | ||
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
MY POINT IS, the vast majority of the weaker player type (most of the pro-MBS crowd) DOESN'T EVEN USE HOTKEYS. This means they shouldn't even be considered when making the decision whether or not to implement it, because they will not benefit from it at all. It's something I guess a lot of people don't think about or don't realize, but it's true. Play a game on BGH or worse yet, fastest. Then go to BWChart. Less than half the BGHers will have used a single hotkey, and almost no fastest players will have. Even if they do, you can see by the 1% hotkey usage that they never went back and used it after hotkeying something. There's absolutely no point in putting in a feature designed to help slower players when they won't benefit from it at all. It will actually make them slip FARTHER behind (increasing the skill gap where it doesn't matter), while narrowing the skill gap where MBS would be used (top-tier competitive players - exactly where you NEED a skill gap in order for a successful esport). If I'm missing something, and there's some huge group of people that play ICCUP that are supporting MBS, then maybe my point is invalid. But even in THIS forum, where we do have decent players supporting MBS, none of them can present a good reason as to how it will improve the game. They just say that it will help newbs (which I've shown is false), and that it's necessary for initial sales (which is also unlikely, or at least negligible). They've already said that you won't be able to group select buildings with the selection box, and this is really the only way newbs would use MBS. I don't see how a newbie game reviewer is going to make some huge deal-breaking point about the lack of a feature that he's unlikely to be good enough to even use. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 07 2007 05:11 Chodorkovskiy wrote: I don't mean to detract from the valid points made earlier (you guys actually managed to scare me into thinking MBS and auto-mining really are bad for SCII), but aren't those reasons to implement the new UI after all? My body would hurt if I played football for 15 hours straight. Or the piano. Or poker. As for the iloveoov example, can you imagine how much easier tvz would get if you could just press 4m and have 15 raxes instantly make marines? | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
I'm fine with what others said - have it as an option. I'd think of something like having 2 seperate game super-classes, like "New" and "Classic" mode games, and then FFA, One on One, Melee, UMS, etc., as sub-classes. That way people who don't want to play the nerfed game would just set the "Classic" filter on (assuming there are filters, which would be a great idea) and would play with other fans of the system in the first game - they won't even have to deal with those "new"-style no0blarz. On September 07 2007 04:32 YinYang69 wrote: We can't just segregate the community and have two modes of play. Everyone will just migrate to one mode and the other one will just die out. To the bottom poster nah I wasn't replying to you. Your message didn't even show up when I was typing. I disagree. UMS vs Fastest vs BGH vs low-money maps = current division. | ||
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Brutalisk
794 Posts
I don't think you can and should generalize that ("only noobs want MBS, pros don't"). This is a) insulting and b) probably untrue anyway. I for example am an average player with 150-160 APM who can definately macro (I'm actually even called a macro whore sometimes because my style has changed so much over the past few years (but I guess it's just normal that you adapt to the common style as time goes on)). So that means I beat noobs, I can easily beat them by using pure macro, because they are slower. But that doesn't mean that I think that this is a great thing. I see it as a "necessary evil", something "tedious" that must be done in order to play correctly. Yes it took me a while to learn it and so on, and I'm perfectly used to it, but I think this skill is so dumb. I'd much rather have that simplified so I can use more of my APM/attention to the fights. Also, the limited hotkeys are a problem for a Zerg player in late game. I don't understand how anyone thinks that there is nothing to do once macro is easier... are we even playing the same game?  There's always something to do. | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On September 07 2007 04:06 MyLostTemple wrote: you should have learned how to play this game. seriously. your fingers hurt after a starcraft game? your using your mouse and your keyboard to macro? what the fuck? 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d man, not click d click d click d and so on. i taught my girl friend how to macro like a korean in two hours. she can 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d across the keyboard with her hands which are only half the size of mine. obviously she's not as fast as me, but the point is that learning the beginning patterns to macro shouldn't be so hard that they need to be removed. How about this, why don't you post a FPvod of yourself. Show us how great your building placement is, your micro, your very grasp on the strategy behind starcraft. Lets see if that isn't just as sloppy as your macro is. I find it hard to believe your good at all these things but your weak baby hands hold you back from fully enjoying this game. In fact, i bet if i sat behind you and watched you play, i'd see you not using all your fingers, holding your hands funny and hotkeying incorrectly. Would you like to know a little secret? mastering the keyboard in starcraft is quite easy, you just need some discipline and some ambition. Go into single player and type in Operation Cwal and show me the money. make 7 gates and start practicing 4d5d6d7d890d with the pinky finger on 'd' and the other fingers on the keys that feel most comfortable. Practice makes perfect. Don't argue these qualities out of the game because you never learned them. You did nothing, but offended him. You didn't add any point or argument, but insulted him assuming if he's supporting UI improvements or if he's clicking at buildings he gotta suck at the game. You know, bringing that isn't good for the discussion, especially when you yourself is nowhere near perfect macro, when everybody can get your replays and see idle buildings, missing rally-points, overflowing resources and overqueuing. Stop acting like you're god of macro cause you can 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d in less than one seconds - I'm still searching decent starcrafter who can't - and wait at least till the Beta to see whether there'll be better macro players than you or not. On September 07 2007 05:46 LonelyMargarita wrote: But even in THIS forum, where we do have decent players supporting MBS, none of them can present a good reason as to how it will improve the game. This discussion is even more pointless than I thought. Just a big flamefest where none cares to understand other and one side tends to throw "noobs" when they aren't better themselves. Btw, part when you called those who supporting UI improvements "BGHers" almost convinced me how bad are these improvements. Thanks a lot! On September 07 2007 06:26 fanatacist wrote: A player using those options and playing against a player who turns them off would have an infinitely large advantage - that alone is proof that MBS and auto-mine are "nerfing" the game. O_o Player with two hands has infinitely large advantage over player with one hand. Does it mean everybody should play with one hand? Player who can select all units of the same type with "ctrl-click" has advantage over one who can't. And would you please tell me what kind of "infinitely large advantage" will have player with MBS over one without? You exaggerating and mixing things up to support your opinion, don't you understand? On September 07 2007 06:13 FrozenArbiter wrote: As for the iloveoov example, can you imagine how much easier tvz would get if you could just press 4m and have 15 raxes instantly make marines? Firstly, 15 raxes is exaggeration, secondly, they will simultaneously produce marines only if you have no less than 750 minerals and thirdly, clicking at barracks isn't hard at all and doesn't have a bit of impact at the defining of the winner. MBS doesn't make game easier, it **looks** easier and that's the definition of good interface. In the first place starcraft become popular cause it's balanced, spectacular and tends to lay at principle "easy to learn, hard to master" in every possible aspect. But today partly archaic and unintuitive UI doesn't fit this concept. | ||
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Highways
Australia6098 Posts
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Sadist
United States7165 Posts
He clicks mostly, IMO when you click it helps your macro greatly if you have enough speed and accuracy with your mouse because you dont have 3-4 thigns building in one fact/gateway etc... | ||
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mdainoob
United States51 Posts
I feel sc is a game that requires a pretty balanced set of skills. It's rarely tedious for me to play and I have a lot of fun playing it. Do a lot of advocates for MBS and automining find sc1 (specifically the macro aspect) tedious, boring, far from perfect, and wish that it needed less speed and multitasking to play? If that is the case for some (obviously not all, but its seems that way for some based on the posts I have read) then obviously your views are going to be fundamentally different than a lot of posters in this thread who immensely enjoy the playstyle of sc1 and see no reason to drastically change this in sc2. | ||
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
On September 07 2007 06:42 Brutalisk wrote: @LonelyMargarita: I don't think you can and should generalize that ("only noobs want MBS, pros don't"). This is a) insulting and b) probably untrue anyway. I for example am an average player with 150-160 APM who can definately macro (I'm actually even called a macro whore sometimes because my style has changed so much over the past few years (but I guess it's just normal that you adapt to the common style as time goes on)). So that means I beat noobs, I can easily beat them by using pure macro, because they are slower. But that doesn't mean that I think that this is a great thing. I see it as a "necessary evil", something "tedious" that must be done in order to play correctly. Yes it took me a while to learn it and so on, and I'm perfectly used to it, but I think this skill is so dumb. I'd much rather have that simplified so I can use more of my APM/attention to the fights. Also, the limited hotkeys are a problem for a Zerg player in late game. I don't understand how anyone thinks that there is nothing to do once macro is easier... are we even playing the same game? There's always something to do.Please don't say I said things I didn't. If you want to quote me, quote me; if you want to lie, don't bother posting. | ||
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Brutalisk
794 Posts
You weakened your generalization by saying that you are maybe overgeneralizing, but still... I used myself as a counter example. And this whole discussion is really getting nowhere. | ||
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Fuu
198 Posts
as there is obviously no way to convince the pro side, i think the best way is indeed to let the choice. When people will start playing, the community will be splited in two parts unfortunately  It seems to be the last solution to prevent a massive noobification of the title, which will occur in all the cases by the way (on a lesser degree). Obviously, the progaming scene choice will be without these shits ; some MBS /on players will cry about this, but at least they'll realize. There is NO improvement in these features ! i'm still fucking waiting you give me one reason to call them improvements. The fact they've been implemented in ALL the RTS failures since sc doesn't mean that it's an improvement. | ||
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