competitive play issues - Page 16

My point with bringing up my War3 experience was that I had the same problem across both games as an RTS noob, which was that I wasn't building units during battles, and multitasking efficiently. So yes, WarCraft 3 has smaller scale battles but the point is after a battle I'd have 1000 gold and lumber like a noob. When first starting out playing SC, isn't that the same thing what we all do? What we're trying to overcome is the ability to macro, not the ability to click 7 factories faster.

On September 07 2007 13:44 orangedude wrote:

There, pasted. Now stop accusing others of lying. You have nothing to back up your assumptions, and fyi I also fall into the latter category yet I'm not opposed to the idea of MBS. As does nearly everyone who visits this site, since a BGH/money player would have no interest whatsoever in a site focused on SC PRO-gaming.

On September 07 2007 14:02 Tupan wrote:
Someone from Blizz said about 3 years ago they felt like not starting making SC2 yet ´cause they thought most hardcore fans wanted nothing different than the original one and thus it was impossible to please them making a game with improvements (which means change).

Now I see how far sighted he was.

The fact is they seem to have gotten over it: there IS going to be MBS+automining and it is going to be sweet for 98% of SC2 players.

For the remaining 2%, there will always be the old and good SC1.

On September 07 2007 04:06 MyLostTemple wrote:


you should have learned how to play this game. seriously. your fingers hurt after a starcraft game? your using your mouse and your keyboard to macro? what the fuck? 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d man, not click d click d click d and so on. i taught my girl friend how to macro like a korean in two hours. she can 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d across the keyboard with her hands which are only half the size of mine. obviously she's not as fast as me, but the point is that learning the beginning patterns to macro shouldn't be so hard that they need to be removed.

How about this, why don't you post a FPvod of yourself. Show us how great your building placement is, your micro, your very grasp on the strategy behind starcraft. Lets see if that isn't just as sloppy as your macro is. I find it hard to believe your good at all these things but your weak baby hands hold you back from fully enjoying this game.

In fact, i bet if i sat behind you and watched you play, i'd see you not using all your fingers, holding your hands funny and hotkeying incorrectly.

Would you like to know a little secret? mastering the keyboard in starcraft is quite easy, you just need some discipline and some ambition. Go into single player and type in Operation Cwal and show me the money. make 7 gates and start practicing 4d5d6d7d890d with the pinky finger on 'd' and the other fingers on the keys that feel most comfortable. Practice makes perfect. Don't argue these qualities out of the game because you never learned them.

On September 07 2007 12:44 Oc wrote:


I honestly don't even know why it matters.

On September 07 2007 18:50 MyLostTemple wrote:


orc, if you don't see why it matters, don't argue with people who do.

choice is definately the way to go, its the only way that both sides of this argument will be happy

On September 07 2007 20:59 Doctorasul wrote:
- implementing MBS but coming up with new useful macro tasks to regain that "macro-feeling"
- having MBS on only one of the 3 races or having only one race not have MBS (it makes perfect sense to have differences in interface between races)

On September 07 2007 21:29 Fen wrote:


Saying "come up with something" doesnt really help anyone. What we need are actual ideas that could be implemented.

The MBS on 1 I think would cause one race to be become the 'easy' race. The shear amount of actions that the other 2 races would have to do compared to the race that doesnt have MBS is just too high to be able to be fair.

On September 07 2007 22:00 Doctorasul wrote:
We aren't game designers so it's not expected of us to come up with the solution. If we know what our needs are it is in the interest of certain game producers to fulfill those needs. So what I said is only helpful if Blizz has some leftover creative energy and isn't sure in which direction to use it.

On September 07 2007 22:08 Fen wrote:


Its everyones responsibility to come up with ideas. Its the game designers job to implement them. Why leave the brainstorming to a group of 50 people when you can utilise the thousands and thousands of starcraft fans who are looking for the perfect next game, and have ideas on what can be implemented? Look folks, if you have an idea, post it. You might get flamed, but as long as you dont take it personally, its the best way for new ideas to surface. You might have a crap idea and someone else might build on it, making a revolutionary style in gaming. You never know.

On September 07 2007 23:23 Aphelion wrote:
OMFG I just lost my post for the second time.

Alright, my argument is this : although I agree with almost everything said by the anti-MBS crowd, splitting the game is terrible for both SC2 and progaming as a split community will never agree on what to play. It would make the accomplishments of the progamers seem much less impressive, and discourage noobs from switching to the pro scene. A successful E-Sport depends upon the noobs playing the exact same game as the pros, the popularity of any sport stems greatly from unskilled people being impressed at and imitating the pros. That happens in almost every sport: people want to be their Airness, bend it like Beckham, etc. Splitting the community would be TERRIBLE for e-sports, and would only alienate the hardcore community and give them the label of pure mass-clickers.

But we can't just not implement MBS or automining either, as both are critical to 1.) SC2 getting good reviews and word of mouth among noobs and 2.) Noobs actually enjoying the game. The former is a lot more important than we think. Although SC2 will be a tremendous best seller even if its a complete piece of shit, its longevity and popularity among casual players will depend greatly depend on such reviews. They also need to enjoy the game too, and as one poster said, the opposite of fun is frustration. Even thoughI disagree with almost everything the pro-MBS people said, I find that to be a very powerful argument.

So whats the solution? It seems apparent to me that MBS and automining need to be implemented in some form, yet there also must be a huge incentive to master non-MBS and automining playing to be decent at the game. Here's my suggestion: make it such that MBS and automining are possible, but with drawbacks. So a player being able to go 5d6d7d8d9d0d would have a huge advantage over those who just go mass-blind-5-d. I have the following suggestions:

-For automining, let the probe idle for 5-10s before going directly to the patch. So in early game manual control is almost essential, and it is still quite a huge advantage until the absolute late game. Yet noobs can still rely on them to at least mine eventually when overwhelmed by the amount of actions past early game.

-I have 2 different ideas for MBS:

1.) Allow unlimited MBS, but the gates will only build if ALL of them have money for it. So 20gates will only produce zealots if you have 2000 minerals. Obviously, the player who doesn't bind / binds very small amount of gates to one hotkey would still have much better macro. But noobs who will have mass resource counts anyways would reduce their required actions by a huge amount without any increase in skill. It can even be used by weak medium players as a crutch in late game. But to improve in skill, you would still need to macro in the conventional manner.

2.)If you select 20 gates to build a zealot each and only have say, 1000 minerals, ALL your gates get the cooldown. So the 10 idle gates are forced to idle for the entire duration of the zealot build. This also means you have to lower to amount of gates binded, and that you would have easier macro but an enforced penalty for doing so. You would need to wait until you have a decent amount of money to efficiently use your gates, but you can get your units now if you absolutely need them. The drawback is that a misclick could be disastrous, say accidentally asking 20 gates to build when you have only money for 1 zealot.

The basic premise is that you can still use MBS and automining if you had to, but thats like the difference between a-click and microing. The later is still needed if you are going to play at a passable level, yet noobs can enjoy the game without it. If anyone has any better ideas, please let me know. I've been racking my brains and these are the only solutions I came up with.