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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 06 2007 00:46 lololol wrote: You're describing SupCom. If you want a macro game go play SupCom. War3 micro is NOTHING like BW micro. Ok, then I'll just say I disagree with your statement that the balance should be tipped in favour of micro in SC2. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
Considering spectator sports however, micro is obviously more appealing  | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
I did the finger thingy. I think the only thing that makes it really hard is the fact that when you're doing them separate ways you have no reference point. Try rotating around a pen or something when you're doing the opposite direction, it makes it easier. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I *THINK* I might *POSSIBLY* have succeeded in 1 complete circle but it ended in me almost falling of my chair cause I kinda spasmed  | ||
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
 back on topic though, i'm a 'shitty' UI lover like frozenarbiter. and i dont even wanna try argue my side because every argument for and against has been put out already.  | ||
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
As for the go play supcom comment, you frustrate me. I cannot count the number of times where Ive read people say stuff like, "well if you dont like unlimited unit selection go play warcraft 1 where you could only select one unit at a time..." Your argument holds no merit at all, its just a gross exaggeration. Supcom is a game with no micro at all, Im after a balance that is slightly tilted towards macro, not a 100% macro game. EDIT: OK, Hyjacking again, Lets make a rule that you cant talk about the fingers without posting something constructive thats related to SC2. (Try the finger thing with your fingers overlapping, one on top of the other, but dont let em touch when you go both ways) | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
The balance in BW is definitely in favor of macro thought. There was a game Kingdom Under Fire, which was made by korean BW fans and was supposed to overthrow BW from it's throne, it had some publicity, but it utterly failed, because the game was heavily macro oriented, that's what a lot of die hard mass game BW players like, but it's not so good for the game and considering spectator sports, SC2 should focus on things that make the public go "wow" I have also played BW quite a lot, but I always liked micro, maybe just because I suck at micro, but it made the game fun for me | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 06 2007 01:09 Fen wrote: Only If you keep posting about em. As for the go play supcom comment, you frustrate me. I cannot count the number of times where Ive read people say stuff like, "well if you dont like unlimited unit selection go play warcraft 1 where you could only select one unit at a time..." Your argument holds no merit at all, its just a gross exaggeration. Supcom is a game with no micro at all, Im after a balance that is slightly tilted towards macro, not a 100% macro game. EDIT: OK, Hyjacking again, Lets make a rule that you cant talk about the fingers without posting something constructive thats related to SC2. (Try the finger thing with your fingers overlapping, one on top of the other, but dont let em touch when you go both ways) I always did it with top of my fingers overlapping cause it's easier to see if I'm doing it right or wrong this way no? :X Anyway, I always was a micro over macro player so I find it funny that I am now arguing against making the game MORE micro intensive.. I just dislike the idea of the game forcing you to favour micro over macro. On September 06 2007 01:15 lololol wrote: There is micro in SupCom, too and I didn't say you should go play SupCom, only that you're describing SupCom with the "being in charge of a war machine" thing. The balance in BW is definitely in favor of macro thought. There was a game Kingdom Under Fire, which was made by korean BW fans and was supposed to overthrow BW from it's throne, it had some publicity, but it utterly failed, because the game was heavily macro oriented, that's what those die hard mass game BW players like, but it's not so good for the game and considering spectator sports, SC2 should focus on things that make the public go "wow" Mm, I love micro, my favorite players have always been the micro/strat guys but I'm also a player and I wouldn't find the micro as fun if I didn't have to constantly try to macro while doing the micro stuff. I used to constantly get 1000 minerals PvT because I was too busy microing my shuttle (I used to have ill shuttle micro btw, waaay better than I do nowadays). | ||
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Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
On September 06 2007 01:07 alffla wrote: ahhaha @ FA back on topic though, i'm a 'shitty' UI lover like frozenarbiter. and i dont even wanna try argue my side because every argument for and against has been put out already. Do you love the shitty UI or the fact that you have concentrate on different tasks? Would you be happy with an improved interface that challenged you in other (macro-type) ways than not having MBS and automine (albeit similar)? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 06 2007 01:15 Doctorasul wrote: Do you love the shitty UI or the fact that you have concentrate on different tasks? Would you be happy with an improved interface that challenged you in other ways than not having MBS and automine (albeit similar)? I have a hard time imagining what could replace 4z5z6z78z9z0z while at the same time cloning zealots to different tanks and storming with your high templars that you just dropped out of a shuttle. I just enjoy the constant jumping from place to place >.< | ||
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
On September 06 2007 01:15 Doctorasul wrote: Do you love the shitty UI or the fact that you have concentrate on different tasks? Would you be happy with an improved interface that challenged you in other ways than not having MBS and automine (albeit similar)? Im sure everyone would be happier if they added something that was new, but required the same kinds of abilities as macro. However so far we havnt seen anything, so we are forced to assume that blizzard arent going to implement anything. I think they would have annouced it by now if they were going to however, because it would have such a massive impact on the game, they would need to know the publics response before taking it too far. To FA- yeah I was always doing it with the fingers overtop of each other as well, thats why im guessing its a lot harder, those videos have shown people with their fingers apart. (yes I know I was the one who told everyone to put your fingers apart, im sorry, however if you can do it with the fingers on top of each other I will bow down to your benevolance) | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 06 2007 01:21 Fen wrote: Im sure everyone would be happier if they added something that was new, but required the same kinds of abilities as macro. However so far we havnt seen anything, so we are forced to assume that blizzard arent going to implement anything. I think they would have annouced it by now if they were going to however, because it would have such a massive impact on the game, they would need to know the publics response before taking it too far. To FA- yeah I was always doing it with the fingers overtop of each other as well, thats why im guessing its a lot harder, those videos have shown people with their fingers apart. (yes I know I was the one who told everyone to put your fingers apart, im sorry, however if you can do it with the fingers on top of each other I will bow down to your benevolance) Oh well so far I can't do either so :D I'll bow down to them either way. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I think But ugly as sin. And not with fingers on top of eachother. EDIT: Thanks to Doctorsaul I can now do it semi-non-uglyishly! | ||
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
On September 06 2007 01:15 lololol wrote: There is micro in SupCom, too and I didn't say you should go play SupCom, only that you're describing SupCom with the "being in charge of a war machine" thing. Ok, sorry, you didnt say I should play I misinterpreted. That bloody argument where ppl tell me to go play warcraft 1 has broken a part of me and I get VERY frustrated when its used against me. Still, most RTS games can be considered building a massive war machine. There arent all that many RTS games where you only build a handful of units then go off to attack. In a way supcom and Starcraft have a lot in common, its about maximising your economy while at the same time keeping your military strong, lots of economy attacks, and large scale conquering of maps (not many RTS games where you can see a split down the middle of the map which divides 2 bases. However Supcom plays a lot differently, with barely any micro and just straight macro, which is not what I want from Starcraft. I want blizzard to hit that balance again that they originally hit with BW. Also Congrats FA | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
You can break all sports into two basic parts: The strategic element and the physical aspect there is incredible strategy weaved within all sports: baseball, soccer, football, tennis, racket ball, boxing, wrestling, starcraft etc SC2 has less of a physical aspect than SC. They've turned baseball into tee ball. That ball is a lot easier to hit when it isn't moving huh? Well maybe one fun part of the game was the challenge of hitting a moving ball. As we all know, baseball > tee ball as far as skill and competition goes. But making a game that requires less dexterity (lower apm) they are reducing physical aspect which made the original starcraft so fucking awsome. Let me use another sport, this time with pictures: Starcraft as golf ![[image loading]](http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/tasteless9/golf1.jpg) Starcraft 2 turned into minature golf due to MBS and auto mining. ![[image loading]](http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/tasteless9/minigolf_main-1.jpg) Before you respond to this, look at your keyboard. Does it have missing keys?... like the windows ones? You might not even be playing starcraft correctly... This is what mine looks like: ![[image loading]](http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/tasteless9/keyboard1.jpg) At the bare minimum do you have your windows keys missing? are you using your entire keyboard when you play (i'm talking about the keys that actually work in sc)? Do you bind all the number keys when you play?... from 1 to 0? do you know every hotkey for your race? I mean everything--from special upgrades to unit hot keys. Do you use all five fingers? Do you know which fingers to use on which keys? Most starcraft players don't. Even the die hard ones. They spend too much time looking at the screen and less time looking at their hands. There's a reason why those koreans have such high apm. I just want that same feel in the new starcraft. I'll be sad if new players pick up starcraft 2 and start laddering with the computer playing the game for them. This is essentially the autocast of macroing. Again, i only care about this for ladder/competitive play. If you want your buildings all bound to one key and your probes going to minerals the second they get out--fine, but don't expect to be a progamer. Don't expect to be the best. MBS and auto mining deter from the very elements that make the game competitive. What about all these progamers, people who devoted their lives to starcraft, mastering these skills and falling in love with them. MBS and automining is a spit in the face for these people, the ones who know the game far better than Blizzard does. Blizzard should be building off what made the game successful, not "fixing" it. I can only assume that Blizzard wants MBS to bring a new type of macro into starcraft. However that macro type seems to be a much slower, much easier one. One that involves less apm and less concentration. One that is centered around memorizing when different unit combos are coming up and then rebinding gateways accordingly. Hmm... Should be quite easy to master with the computer making sure my probes mine for me when they pop out. Again, if you don't like the difficulty and demanding dexterity of starcraft then that's fine. But don't fuck up Starcraft because this game was too hard for you. Play another game. Keep MBS and automining as a setting and keep it out of the esports scene. | ||
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Hokay
United States738 Posts
On September 04 2007 05:48 MyLostTemple wrote: It's been a while since i've posted in the SC2 topic area, however there are things i think we need to talk about. First let me say that did play sc2 at blizzcon and i was quite impressed with it. This game definitely has the potential to be an incredibly successful RTS game. I enjoyed almost every aspect of the game except for the interface; and that's what i'm going to talk about now. I want starcraft 2 to be the best rts game ever. I don't want another warcraft 3. I also don't want silly newbie shit that brings this game a step down from it's older brother. And at the same time i definitely want to keep the game progressive so that we can attract new players. I'm afraid of MBS (multiple building selection) and automining. I played SC2 at blizzcon for over seven hours. I was allowed to play the game the day before it was showed off at at blizzcon and there were so many things i loved about it. However, the MBS and automining felt absolutely terrible. It made sc2 feel A LOT slower than sc and that's very disappointing. Now i know I've said i thought MBS could be a good thing. I was definitely wrong. It felt awfully newbie--macroing just wasn't fun. Tie this in with auto mining and it got even worse. I hardly had to think at all about my base. I think this could have massive negative ramifications on the competitive scene. Do we really want Starcraft 2 to always be known as the more popular but easier RTS game in the series? I would like to see it step up on all levels. But what the hell are we supposed to do with these players who would find SC2 too hard without MBS and auto mining? My solution is to keep MBS and auto mining a setting that can only be played in non competitive games. We all know BGH right? This mode of play is for players who aren't interested in expanding, they aren't interested in teching in a very mathematical or precise way. To say the very least, BGH players play a different and more simple version of starcraft. I'm not by ANY means saying that's bad. BGH players make up a huge part of the sc population. But i think you all would be as frustrated as i am if blizzard hosted BGH ladders and ONLY bgh style ladders. In fact, we don't even see BGH ladders around because for the most part SC players who want to be the best try to master low money maps because it's more difficult and there fore more attractive. Lets keep MBS and auto mining in SC2, but out of competitive ladder play and tournaments. By doing this the new players who pick up SC2 and want to use an easier interface and play for fun can do this while the hard core competitive players, like me, can still play on a ladder where it was as fun and challenging as the old SC. I've thought about this a very long time since i attended blizzcon. I believe we must keep MBS and auto mining, but separate them as features that can only be used in non ladder/tournament games. Thanks for reading <3 --Tasteless No. Go back to SC1 or at least wait till beta to see what blizzard will build upon having an easier UI. They already said having an easier UI leaves room to design other game mechanics that will occupy a players skill. | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
I saw nothing but an easy starcraft with awsom graphics and some very creative cool new units. Don't get me wrong though, it looks REALLY good and will obviously sell well when it releases. But i just can't see what game mechanics will some how fill up my time now. blinking around with stalkers? Leme tell you something... i can blink my ass off with stalkers, micro colossus up and down ledges and do all that cool shit the mother ship does WHILE going 4s5s6s7s8s9s0s and making sure my probes are mining. Unfortunately i didn't have to do that. What a shame if i don't have to do it any more at all. | ||
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