On May 02 2021 18:02 StasisField wrote: I've never wanted both players to lose this badly
Why so much hate for the only two GOAT contenders still playing?
INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition.
I think with his recent results (2x GSL finals, king of battles and Super Tournament win) Maru has finally surpassed Inno by now. Rogue though isn't a contender in my eyes because he was only succesful during one expansion, during a quite weak competitive era and mostly at times when his race was strong.
On May 04 2021 01:03 Poopi wrote: Should be particularly interesting now that they aren't teammates anymore
They've been openly talking about how they practice with each other, and calling each other the best of their respective races. It seems like Rogue and Maru at least have remained really close friends, even after the fall of Jinair. That'll make it all the more interesting though in terms of mind games.
G5L is a cursed trophy and cannot be obtained until both players in the finals have 4 titles. Thus Rogue will win. Also I have the feeling Arotosis will go on a Maru rant and will curse him out of existence.
I really wanted to see Rogue vs Trap because I actually love watching PvZ (although recently there's a lot of games that end in 1 push, but it'd still be cool to watch Rogue IQ roll Trap) and I'm a fan of Trap. But thinking about it, maybe Rogue would have stomped Trap and it could have been boring. I'm a fan of Rogue but beating someone like Maru would give his championship a lot more value in the eyes of many.
And Maru beating Rogue who never lost a Bo7 (in GSL?) would be epic too.
To me, this is a battle between the GOAT, and the 3rd-5th greatest SC2 player. (Personally, Rogue is the 3rd-4th greatest on my list). If Maru wins this, good luck to anyone trying to beat his record. If Rogue wins this, it would cement him as Top 3 GOAT with an argument of being rated even 2nd over Inno.
It would be so hype for 2 of the very very greatest SC2 players to fight in this finals.
Whether it's a stomp or not, please let the games be legendary! Thankfully it's a TvZ, and even though I feel it can be sometimes stale, it should be great watching Maru and Rogue play it, with THESE stakes.
On May 03 2021 22:51 Anc13nt wrote: whoever wins this is (and will be) the greatest LotV player
Very possibly yeah, but I'm feeling like Rogue is gonna stomp Maru. o_o
Even though Rogue has an invincibility streak, I'm less worried than when Maru had to face TY in GSL Finals 2018 (and obviously 2020 as well). Maru is usually very good in GSL finals, and Rogue is very good at comebacks in ZvT with his opponent on match point. Should be particularly interesting now that they aren't teammates anymore
On the topic of them not being teammates, it is kind of funny how top 4 half a year after jinair disbanded is still 3 ex JA players out of 4 spots. So much for the arguement that they were only good due to the teamhouse
On May 05 2021 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote: On the topic of them not being teammates, it is kind of funny how top 4 half a year after jinair disbanded is still 3 ex JA players out of 4 spots. So much for the arguement that they were only good due to the teamhouse
I kind of wish Jinair had dialed back its involvement instead of disbanding altogether. No team house, but still have the team intact. I'm happy to see that the old Jinair members are still good friends, but I really miss that team name.
On May 05 2021 03:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: This season of GSL has been amazing. I love the state of the game. Bravo Blizzard.
There is a lot of variety in games for sure. Intense strategies and such.
Back in WoL/HotS, we got a lot of long macro games, mixed with some all-ins. Although there were many intense macro games, often you would pick the same 2-3 safe macro builds and nothing really happens until they get to 3 bases and are near max or getting late game tech already.
In LotV, there is so many more combinations of things you can do you in build (like tech + exp, double tech 1 base, fast 3 base, 1 base all-in, etc.), it makes the early game much more varied. (Even though the "opening" of your build may be more limited now, for example usually you take gas quick because of the worker start increase, and may not be as much variety in terms of when you get your first and second gas etc., the overall variety of builds has increased.)
There are games where both players may decide to go fast 3 base, and it's a macro game, but with a shorter buildup to the 3 bases thanks to the LotV worker start. There are games where its fast 3 base vs 1 base harass or all in. There are lots of games with a mix of proxy tech and expand, and lots of variety in how to manage a situation like that to try to win.
The game feels much more dynamic, like you can't just pick the same 1 Rax FE or CC first builds as you could in WoL and HotS, where you only needed to hope they didn't go with 1 or 2 possible cheese/all-in counters. You can't be safe with your build, you have to mix it up, and each build has counters. It can be more stressful, but since pro SC2 is played in series, I think this makes it really great to watch.
However the 1 complaint I have, is that recently it seems that games often end in 1 push. And there seem to be a lack of macro games outside of TvT and TvZ (and recently PvP, which has turned into an awesome MU, anyone remember Patience vs Parting or Zest vs Creator PvPs with all the Stalker Disruptor micro and such??).
Is it just me? I would like a litttle more games to be macro and actually have players take a large part of the map, constantly fighting for bases and harassing all over. I really want that "spread out" feeling where players are constantly having to put out fires, and trying to keep getting ahead and take more bases, rather than just getting a small advantage early on and then trying to end the game in 1 push. LotV has made great changes to allow for more of that spread out feeling which made BW fun, but at the same time, it feels like the recent meta usually leads to games ending before it can actually get that far.
I also am a little worried about the maps. I may make a new thread about it to elaborate better. But often the maps have bases grouped together closely, and especially because we don't really have 3 or 4 player maps anymore, maps are smaller. This leads to more games where each player just takes 1 side of the map, and if you lose a big fight you tend to lose the game. Back then on maps like Tal'darim, even though it was a little imba and we found out it was slightly too big, we had many great macro games because you could take bases all over, there were many more attack routes and much more army positioning on the map trying to intercept armies and workers, etc. Even if you lost a cluster of bases you could still be in the game and make come backs.
I think Golden Wall was a great 2p map to bring some elements that have phased out. It was a large map with multiple expansion paths, and it had far away bases. Remember TY vs Stats, where TY went mech? If Stats had played a little better, the game could have turned into a much longer one where it was Stats holding the top bases vs TY controlling the bottom. But even before the game ended, there were lots of interesting army movement because of all the different bases and paths. It wasn't just, you push their side once and end the game.
The other great thing about Golden Wall is not only does it have many far away bases, but some of the far away bases have small chokes. Looking at BW maps, it's very common for later expos to have ramps or very small chokes, which allow you more options of where to expand. You don't have to just take close bases, you can take a far base and put down some static def (which keeps army supply free), and put a couple lurkers at the ramp or such. It was viable to take farther bases because it also could be harder for your opponent to reach or go past the choke cost effectively. Golden Wall is one of the few maps that used small chokes for far bases, like the 2 center-upper bases with the ramps and rocks. I would really like more maps to have smaller chokes and more easily defendable far away bases to give more expo options to make for more positional play and spread players out more.
I don't understand why SC2 mapmakers keep making later expands have very open areas to attack them. Static defense is already weak enough, and moving armies through chokes is much easier in SC2 than BW even with new defensive units like the Lurker, Liberator, Disruptor. Why not have some far bases with small chokes? There are tons of ways to drop, warp in, etc. in SC2. The harder it is to take out bases, the more we can "slow down" the game and allow for more interactions and closer, more intense games. And if it was slower it would also lead to players trying to do multiple things at once with their armies and spread them out. Often times players have 1 main army and then 1 little harass force, if they want to push a base they just attack it. In BW, you had to slowly dismantle the defenses at a base with small specialized forces, so while waiting you would have your army do other things in other areas of the map.
The later expands also being very open allows for base trades to be as easy as they are in SC2. Expands are all open and difficult to defend as long as the opponent's army is not on their side of the map. If later expands were easier to defend, then even if players try to base trade, there is a chance the game will continue as they can't quite finish off all the bases just by A-clicking their army.
Sorry gave lots of thoughts, curious to hear if there are good reasons to these things I'm wondering. I would love to see a little more macro games where players are able to take a significant part of the map, and for maps to be larger and have more viable far away expos options, not just small 2p maps where you push the opponent's side once and there is very little comeback potential if they can't hold the push. I do love the variety of LotV games and I don't mind the short ones, but the long macro ones with players scrambling all over the map for resources would be amazing too.
On May 05 2021 03:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: This season of GSL has been amazing. I love the state of the game. Bravo Blizzard.
I don't understand why SC2 mapmakers keep making later expands have very open areas to attack them. Static defense is already weak enough, and moving armies through chokes is much easier in SC2 than BW even with new defensive units like the Lurker, Liberator, Disruptor. Why not have some far bases with small chokes? There are tons of ways to drop, warp in, etc. in SC2. The harder it is to take out bases, the more we can "slow down" the game and allow for more interactions and closer, more intense games. And if it was slower it would also lead to players trying to do multiple things at once with their armies and spread them out. Often times players have 1 main army and then 1 little harass force, if they want to push a base they just attack it. In BW, you had to slowly dismantle the defenses at a base with small specialized forces, so while waiting you would have your army do other things in other areas of the map.
I totally agree with you and I think it would make SC2 better, but I wonder if the meta would shift towards the kind of staleness we see in 3v3s and 4v4s; if it's easy to defend, it's more and more effective to turtle and tech skip straight to tier 3 units. I don't think this is a problem with RTS, more so just SC2's particular strangeness with t3 units.
On May 05 2021 03:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: This season of GSL has been amazing. I love the state of the game. Bravo Blizzard.
I don't understand why SC2 mapmakers keep making later expands have very open areas to attack them. Static defense is already weak enough, and moving armies through chokes is much easier in SC2 than BW even with new defensive units like the Lurker, Liberator, Disruptor. Why not have some far bases with small chokes? There are tons of ways to drop, warp in, etc. in SC2. The harder it is to take out bases, the more we can "slow down" the game and allow for more interactions and closer, more intense games. And if it was slower it would also lead to players trying to do multiple things at once with their armies and spread them out. Often times players have 1 main army and then 1 little harass force, if they want to push a base they just attack it. In BW, you had to slowly dismantle the defenses at a base with small specialized forces, so while waiting you would have your army do other things in other areas of the map.
I totally agree with you and I think it would make SC2 better, but I wonder if the meta would shift towards the kind of staleness we see in 3v3s and 4v4s; if it's easy to defend, it's more and more effective to turtle and tech skip straight to tier 3 units. I don't think this is a problem with RTS, more so just SC2's particular strangeness with t3 units.
That's true, I should clarify as I mispoke a bit in the part you quoted. I don't think all bases should be easier to take, but I think some of the later, far away expos, should be designed with more variety. Specifically, make some of them have small chokes, so it's possible to expo there and defend even if it's far away and hard to move your army there to protect it. So you have an option to take a close base with a wide choke which is easy to move your army to defend it, or take far away ones that are harder to reinforce but also less cost effective (and more time consuming) for your opponent to attack into if you put a little static defense and a couple units. This overall spreads the players out and actually use more of the map, which allows for more variety in army movement, more possible positions to control and fight over, and also slows the game down as armies have to move further distances and are spread around the map more.
(In the 3p and 4p maps of old, taking a corner main base was a thing, since it was far away and also had a small choke. Unfortunately we don't have these maps anymore so we lost this concept outside of maps like Golden Wall.)
This might not be a great example, but it is a game I recently rewatched on Tal'Darim. You can skip around to get an idea of the army movement and how back and forth it is, and players don't try to just instantly end the game with 1 push. Even though the army comps were so much more boring back then, maps and macro games like this kept it exciting.
EPT
