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Poopi
France12791 Posts
On May 02 2021 21:29 deacon.frost wrote: During the Inno peak Maru smashed him in one of the fastest BO7 ever played. Just sayin  Well Maru is the GOAT, but even him had his fair share of dubious losses (the worst one being the 2018 BlizzCon vs sOs though). Still think a 2-3 years younger INno would keep winning stuff like GSL in 2021 | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4906 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On May 02 2021 18:42 Poopi wrote: INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition. I'm not sure that changes the fact that Maru has been the superior player for basically every moment Innovation has played SC2... | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 02 2021 18:42 Poopi wrote: INno is still playing... he is quite unlucky to be far older than Maru / having peaked when there was the most competition. If you go back season by season to the start of HotS when they both kicked off, Maru did better than INno in like 80% of them. People point to INno as some kind of king of consistency, but he's much less consistent than Maru in terms of always being at the top. It's just that in the few seasons where he was better, he usually won the trophy. + Show Spoiler + 2013 S1 - INno 2013 S2 - Maru 2013 S3 - Maru 2014 S1 - Maru 2014 S2 - Maru 2013 S3 - INno 2015 S1 - Maru 2015 S2 - Maru 2015 S3 - INno 2016 S1 - Maru 2016 S2 - Maru 2017 S1 - INno 2017 S2 - Maru 2017 S3 - INno 2018 S1 - Maru 2018 S2 - Maru 2018 S3 - Maru 2019 S1 - Maru 2019 S2 - INno 2019 S3 - Maru 2020 S1 - Maru 2020 S2 - INno 2020 S3 - Maru 2021 S1 - Maru | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 03 2021 02:08 Fango wrote: If you go back season by season to the start of HotS when they both kicked off, Maru did better than INno in like 80% of them. People point to INno as some kind of king of consistency, but he's much less consistent than Maru in terms of always being at the top. It's just that in the few seasons where he was better, he usually won the trophy. + Show Spoiler + 2013 S1 - INno 2013 S2 - Maru 2013 S3 - Maru 2014 S1 - Maru 2014 S2 - Maru 2013 S3 - INno 2015 S1 - Maru 2015 S2 - Maru 2015 S3 - INno 2016 S1 - Maru 2016 S2 - Maru 2017 S1 - INno 2017 S2 - Maru 2017 S3 - Maru 2018 S1 - Maru 2018 S2 - Maru 2018 S3 - Maru 2019 S1 - Maru 2019 S2 - INno 2019 S3 - Maru 2020 S1 - Maru 2020 S2 - Maru 2020 S3 - Maru 2021 S1 - Maru Trophies count. When people want to What I mean - look at Rogue. He has the best trophy case of the active SC2 players. And yet many overlook him for players who won far less. Multiple world champion, multiple code S champion. And some other fancy titles. (ST, IEM Shanghai) | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 03 2021 02:19 deacon.frost wrote: Trophies count. When people want to What I mean - look at Rogue. He has the best trophy case of the active SC2 players. And yet many overlook him for players who won far less. Multiple world champion, multiple code S champion. And some other fancy titles. (ST, IEM Shanghai)Sure, of course trophies count. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's not like Maru was invisible in all those 'INno peak competition' years. He was actually better like 80% of the time compared to INno, just that when INno was better he managed to win more. At least until 2018. As for Rogue. Well, he didn't dominate in multiple expansions or when his race was anything close to being underpowered is probably the argument I'll have to settle for | ||
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Elentos
55510 Posts
On May 03 2021 02:08 Fango wrote: If you go back season by season to the start of HotS when they both kicked off, Maru did better than INno in like 80% of them. People point to INno as some kind of king of consistency, but he's much less consistent than Maru in terms of always being at the top. It's just that in the few seasons where he was better, he usually won the trophy. + Show Spoiler + 2013 S1 - INno 2013 S2 - Maru 2013 S3 - Maru 2014 S1 - Maru 2014 S2 - Maru 2013 S3 - INno 2015 S1 - Maru 2015 S2 - Maru 2015 S3 - INno 2016 S1 - Maru 2016 S2 - Maru 2017 S1 - INno 2017 S2 - Maru 2017 S3 - Maru 2018 S1 - Maru 2018 S2 - Maru 2018 S3 - Maru 2019 S1 - Maru 2019 S2 - INno 2019 S3 - Maru 2020 S1 - Maru 2020 S2 - Maru 2020 S3 - Maru 2021 S1 - Maru 2015 S1 Inno Ro8, Maru Ro16 2016 S1 both out in Code A 2017 S1 both Ro8 2017 S3 Inno won Code S, Maru Ro32 2020 S1 Inno Ro4, Maru Ro8 2020 S2 Inno Ro8, Maru Ro16 And Inno had better results in the 2 full WoL seasons they both played in. So Maru placed higher in 14 seasons, Inno placed higher in 10 and they finished with the same placement two times. If you wanna arbitrarily say it's better to lose to the eventual champion than anyone else, then let's say 15-11. Not exactly 80% until you count Ro32 as better than 1st place. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 03 2021 02:23 Fango wrote: Sure, of course trophies count. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's not like Maru was invisible in all those 'INno peak competition' years. He was actually better like 80% of the time compared to INno, just that when INno was better he managed to win more. At least until 2018. As for Rogue. Well, he didn't dominate in multiple expansions or when his race was anything close to being underpowered is probably the argument I'll have to settle for I'm not gonna pursue the Rogue example any more, as you're missing the point but that doesn't matter. Truth is, people remember mostly the titles, that's why a solid player never gets the recognition they're supposed to get. e.g. Classic, soO Both were great players, among the top, overshadowed by victors. In the case of Classic at one point overshadowed by a callendar (he won Code S and a week(?) later nobody cared as the global WCS finals took him from the spotlight :D ) | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 03 2021 02:10 crbox wrote: Rogue gonna bring the 9 billion IQ strats It's gonna be ling flood and nydus all in isn't it? | ||
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JoeCool
Germany2517 Posts
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machinus
United States291 Posts
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rickzou
46 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On May 03 2021 11:18 machinus wrote: A G5L beating Rogue in the finals will conclusively settle the debate about who is the all-time best. A feat no one else has accomplished doing it in a way no one else has accomplished? Yea no question. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 03 2021 03:36 deacon.frost wrote: I'm not gonna pursue the Rogue example any more, as you're missing the point but that doesn't matter. Truth is, people remember mostly the titles, that's why a solid player never gets the recognition they're supposed to get. e.g. Classic, soO Both were great players, among the top, overshadowed by victors. In the case of Classic at one point overshadowed by a callendar (he won Code S and a week(?) later nobody cared as the global WCS finals took him from the spotlight :D )It's true that most people remember titles, except for guys like Rogue who are unlikeable for other reasons. But if you're anything beyond a casual fan and want to make genuine comparisons between the best players, you should be able to look past that. Which is why players like soO and Maru (pre-2018) would be much higher on any kind of GOAT list if it was being done by someone more invested in the scene. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 03 2021 03:22 Elentos wrote: 2015 S1 Inno Ro8, Maru Ro16 2016 S1 both out in Code A 2017 S1 both Ro8 2017 S3 Inno won Code S, Maru Ro32 2020 S1 Inno Ro4, Maru Ro8 2020 S2 Inno Ro8, Maru Ro16 And Inno had better results in the 2 full WoL seasons they both played in. So Maru placed higher in 14 seasons, Inno placed higher in 10 and they finished with the same placement two times. If you wanna arbitrarily say it's better to lose to the eventual champion than anyone else, then let's say 15-11. Not exactly 80% until you count Ro32 as better than 1st place. I didn't say this was exclusively Code S. 2015 S1 - Maru was a champion (SSL) 2016 was terrible for both of them but I gave it to Maru because he was universally considered the better player, highlighted by proleague results. And as you said, he lost to the eventual champion due to terrible seeding choices by GSL. 2017 S1 - INno was a champion (SSL) 2020 S1 - Maru was a champion (Super Tournament) 2017 S3 and 2020 S2 were mistakes yeah, thanks for pointing out. Still, even if you include the two seasons at the end of WoL, that's 17-9 in favour of Maru over their careers. Which is quite heavy in terms of the fact that everyone claims INno was more consistent or had more longevity. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Swisslink
2953 Posts
On May 03 2021 03:39 Nakajin wrote: It's gonna be ling flood and nydus all in isn't it? And if it isn‘t, Maru will pull off the most cheesy forms of proxy raxes to make sure no one likes the games. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3370 Posts
On May 03 2021 22:51 Anc13nt wrote: whoever wins this is (and will be) the greatest LotV player Very possibly yeah, but I'm feeling like Rogue is gonna stomp Maru. o_o | ||
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Poopi
France12791 Posts
On May 04 2021 00:59 Gescom wrote: Very possibly yeah, but I'm feeling like Rogue is gonna stomp Maru. o_o Even though Rogue has an invincibility streak, I'm less worried than when Maru had to face TY in GSL Finals 2018 (and obviously 2020 as well). Maru is usually very good in GSL finals, and Rogue is very good at comebacks in ZvT with his opponent on match point. Should be particularly interesting now that they aren't teammates anymore | ||
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