EPTNew ladder maps for first season of 2021? - Page 5
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Legan
Finland580 Posts
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Sworn
Canada920 Posts
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iMECH_KolosS
Canada63 Posts
On March 23 2021 05:04 Sworn wrote: Adding in GSL Nautilus could be a good change to the map pool. Reintroduces 4 player maps to ladder which could spice up the meta a lot with how common split map scenarios are becoming in SC2. Gives players an option to take more of the map which doesn't really exist on any current maps though the issue with early game scouting on 4 player maps does come back. I actually am for this. I really enjoy standard 2 player maps, but I enjoy diversity as well. Now to think of it, I enjoy a map pool that has let's say 5x 2 Player Maps with relatively standard Design (ex. Death Aura, Lightshade, Pillars of Gold, etc.) 2x 4 Player Maps, which can alter the game plan based on scouting timings etc. 1x 2 Player Map with a curve ball design that could force map-specific strategies like a map with close air spawn for instances. That way, poeple can veto the 4 player maps and the curve ball one if they want, but tournament with BO7 could generate some interesting games on the 4 players maps and the curve ball one. Just a thought anyway. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12131 Posts
On March 23 2021 05:11 iMECH_KolosS wrote: I actually am for this. I really enjoy standard 2 player maps, but I enjoy diversity as well. Now to think of it, I enjoy a map pool that has let's say 5x 2 Player Maps with relatively standard Design (ex. Death Aura, Lightshade, Pillars of Gold, etc.) 2x 4 Player Maps, which can alter the game plan based on scouting timings etc. 1x 2 Player Map with a curve ball design that could force map-specific strategies like a map with close air spawn for instances. That way, poeple can veto the 4 player maps and the curve ball one if they want, but tournament with BO7 could generate some interesting games on the 4 players maps and the curve ball one. Just a thought anyway. What gameplan you talking about? You do realize we start with 12 workers, right? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On March 23 2021 05:04 Sworn wrote: Adding in GSL Nautilus could be a good change to the map pool. Reintroduces 4 player maps to ladder which could spice up the meta a lot with how common split map scenarios are becoming in SC2. Gives players an option to take more of the map which doesn't really exist on any current maps though the issue with early game scouting on 4 player maps does come back. They took Darkness Sanctuary and put it on ladder a few years back and that was terrible. Obviously we never get to see much of Cobalt/Obsidian/Nautilus/whatever other 4p map GSL adds, since players veto it non-stop, so it's hard to say but I have my doubts about cross-spawn PvT balance on most of those. Plus as you mentioned there's all the RNG issues. I would like a lot more non-standard maps on ladder (since most concepts never get a chance or when they do a second chance), but regular 4p maps are one concept that has gotten its time in the sun and played out really poorly. | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
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Sworn
Canada920 Posts
On March 23 2021 05:38 ZigguratOfUr wrote: They took Darkness Sanctuary and put it on ladder a few years back and that was terrible. Obviously we never get to see much of Cobalt/Obsidian/Nautilus/whatever other 4p map GSL adds, since players veto it non-stop, so it's hard to say but I have my doubts about cross-spawn PvT balance on most of those. Plus as you mentioned there's all the RNG issues. I would like a lot more non-standard maps on ladder (since most concepts never get a chance or when they do a second chance), but regular 4p maps are one concept that has gotten its time in the sun and played out really poorly. 4 player maps obviously have their issues but there are ways to fix it like possibly revealing spawn location at the beginning and the acceleration field in the middle of nautilus does make ground distance similar. Years are a long time for SC2 the game has changed a lot since then and with how infrequent balance changes are now map design will be the only way we can get any kind of large meta shifts. Maybe 4 player maps aren't the answer necessarily but I'd rather see change than stagnation. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12131 Posts
On March 23 2021 06:21 Sworn wrote: 4 player maps obviously have their issues but there are ways to fix it like possibly revealing spawn location at the beginning and the acceleration field in the middle of nautilus does make ground distance similar. Years are a long time for SC2 the game has changed a lot since then and with how infrequent balance changes are now map design will be the only way we can get any kind of large meta shifts. Maybe 4 player maps aren't the answer necessarily but I'd rather see change than stagnation. 4p maps without revealed locations are nearly impossible to balance and people will veto it just because they're bad because 12-worker start requires you to know where to scout in case you have to scout(e.g. random players). Same applies to the pro players who will veto them unless there are worse maps in the pool - looking at you, Submarine. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On March 23 2021 06:29 deacon.frost wrote: 4p maps without revealed locations are nearly impossible to balance and people will veto it just because they're bad because 12-worker start requires you to know where to scout in case you have to scout(e.g. random players). Same applies to the pro players who will veto them unless there are worse maps in the pool - looking at you, Submarine. Well pros will also veto things just because they are different/non-standard and also if they're not on ladder, which means that GSL 4p maps face the quadruple-whammy of "probably imbalanced?", "volatile because of scouting RNG", "different", and "not on ladder". | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12131 Posts
On March 23 2021 06:45 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Well pros will also veto things just because they are different/non-standard and also if they're not on ladder, which means that GSL 4p maps face the quadruple-whammy of "probably imbalanced?", "volatile because of scouting RNG", "different", and "not on ladder". But it makes sense. Training for a standard map is easier as you cover more maps with one training. Training for nonstandard maps makes it harder(read more training) and if you add even another level - 4p maps - you get even more hard things. And on the top of all that jazz it's not on the ladder. When we don;t havet the training house environment anymore, so you cannot just take a guy and train the map for 24 hours straight. I still remember some of the less standard maps which were unplayable in some scenarios(e.g. PvZ, because the wall was impossible to get) - people keep forgetting that unlike pros I cannot ban maps before the match on the ladder based on the enemies race. I don't have that information, sometimes until I meet their units  Edit> well, honestly, it doesn't seem we have to be worried about nonstandard maps. Or new maps. And people are asking why are others so negative about the future when we cannot get new map pool, even if it's a map pool of the least vetoed maps in the history of LotV/SC2 | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
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Wardi
England898 Posts
There is no reason to believe there wont be new maps, Blizzard does know SC2 exists considering they are funding ESL Pro Tour prizes, they probably just don’t have good communication atm because of a lot of internal shifting. At the worst case scenario I’m sure ESL can talk to Blizzard if needed. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On March 23 2021 12:55 Wardi wrote: I’m still convinced people would have complained if we got new maps just before Katowice and blamed Blizzard for changing things just before a big event. There is no reason to believe there wont be new maps, Blizzard does know SC2 exists considering they are funding ESL Pro Tour prizes, they probably just don’t have good communication atm because of a lot of internal shifting. At the worst case scenario I’m sure ESL can talk to Blizzard if needed. People did complain before Dreamhack Leipzig 2018, but that was Blizzard introducing a map pool three days before the tournament. Players would have had at least a month in this case which is the same amount of time as they had for Katowice 2019 or 2018 and no one complained then. There is admittedly the difference that this Katowice was the big year end event whereas previously it would only have been the second most important tournament, but I don't think it makes a big difference practically speaking. | ||
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Cygnus
United States853 Posts
 The concept of reveal may be a fair compromise, I like in BW how your optimal build could change if it was cross position vs not and it could be fun to add that factor back in. But at this rate I'll take anything new! Hell, anyone have any sweet 3 player maps?  | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On March 23 2021 13:46 Cygnus wrote: I would love to see some 4 player maps back in, fair arguments as to why we shouldn't use them but if there was a time for YOLO in regards to SC2 I vote now. The concept of reveal may be a fair compromise, I like in BW how your optimal build could change if it was cross position vs not and it could be fun to add that factor back in. But at this rate I'll take anything new! Hell, anyone have any sweet 3 player maps? They still get made albeit quite rarely (e.g Timmay who made Catallena and is probably the biggest fan of 3p maps among mapmakers submitted Last Fantasy which I thought was a pretty sweet map to the previous TLMC: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/NYsuxfZ.jpeg) | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12131 Posts
On March 23 2021 12:55 Wardi wrote: I’m still convinced people would have complained if we got new maps just before Katowice and blamed Blizzard for changing things just before a big event. There is no reason to believe there wont be new maps, Blizzard does know SC2 exists considering they are funding ESL Pro Tour prizes, they probably just don’t have good communication atm because of a lot of internal shifting. At the worst case scenario I’m sure ESL can talk to Blizzard if needed. I get why people were defending Blizzard during WoL, I don't get it now, honestly. All we ask for is one stupid tweet - don't worry, there will be new maps. Or post. OR ANYTHING in this regard. Soon they will have less than a week | ||
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iMECH_KolosS
Canada63 Posts
On March 24 2021 00:23 deacon.frost wrote: I get why people were defending Blizzard during WoL, I don't get it now, honestly. All we ask for is one stupid tweet - don't worry, there will be new maps. Or post. OR ANYTHING in this regard. Soon they will have less than a week I get your point Wardi. What I meant was more along the lines of Deacon Frost. We're 1 week until end of this ladder season and it's still radio silence to know if we'll get new maps or not starting new season. It'd be fun at least to get word from blizzard how they plan on updating map pools (including community made ones) from now on since they stoppoed fully supporting the game. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12131 Posts
On March 24 2021 19:57 iMECH_KolosS wrote: I get your point Wardi. What I meant was more along the lines of Deacon Frost. We're 1 week until end of this ladder season and it's still radio silence to know if we'll get new maps or not starting new season. It'd be fun at least to get word from blizzard how they plan on updating map pools (including community made ones) from now on since they stoppoed fully supporting the game. AW yeah, getting to know how they will treat the ladder in the future would be awesome. Totally forgot about that. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On March 24 2021 00:23 deacon.frost wrote: I get why people were defending Blizzard during WoL, I don't get it now, honestly. All we ask for is one stupid tweet - don't worry, there will be new maps. Or post. OR ANYTHING in this regard. Soon they will have less than a week Such things are totally unrealistic. The expense to have one person Tweet our ‘don’t worry we’ve got plans for new maps this upcoming season folks’ is stretching the budget of a tiny indie publishing house like Activision Blizzard too much. They still might deliver but people’s worries are entirely due to a lack of communication. I’m still kind of confused in why the withdrawal of active development worked as it did. The community could have just produced content like skins on top of maps with some kind of Blizzard rubber stamp process and things would be both smoother and they’d get some additional monies. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12131 Posts
On March 24 2021 21:01 WombaT wrote: Such things are totally unrealistic. The expense to have one person Tweet our ‘don’t worry we’ve got plans for new maps this upcoming season folks’ is stretching the budget of a tiny indie publishing house like Activision Blizzard too much. They still might deliver but people’s worries are entirely due to a lack of communication. I’m still kind of confused in why the withdrawal of active development worked as it did. The community could have just produced content like skins on top of maps with some kind of Blizzard rubber stamp process and things would be both smoother and they’d get some additional monies. The game engine IMO cannot handle it well enough. I just wish the ladder won't die because Blizzard can't be bother to update ladder maps. Like I was expecting it to happen eventually but not during the ESL contract. | ||
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