EPTThere's no point to automatic production unless it is applied as a mechanic to the game as a whole. What happens when a player passes to a higher league and then suddenly has to play against those who have been playing a different game all along?
How to keep new people in Blizzard RTS games? - Page 2
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom6402 Posts
There's no point to automatic production unless it is applied as a mechanic to the game as a whole. What happens when a player passes to a higher league and then suddenly has to play against those who have been playing a different game all along? | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1324 Posts
On October 24 2020 00:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: The premise that SC2 is too hardcore is false. The point of matchmaking is that difficulty doesn't really matter. What matters is that the game is fun to play and has enough depth to be engaging to return to after playing time after time. Actually it doesn't need depth, it just has to be fun. There's no point to automatic production unless it is applied as a mechanic to the game as a whole. What happens when a player passes to a higher league and then suddenly has to play against those who have been playing a different game all along? Right. Even in more casual spheres, building / economy management in sim games is super fun (think Sim City, Banished, They Are Billions). I don't think automating this would appeal to more players, just having a single player or co-op mode that is engaging and has replay value would be sufficient. | ||
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DSh1
290 Posts
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vyzion
180 Posts
On October 23 2020 07:49 yuisaka wrote: Main point is blizzard RTS is too hardcore for the people never played the game my thought is more auto function less click more time to think of how to play instead of to play at lower league. Eg:At bronze league you can have auto production/auto mining/autocast/build reminder/scouting reminder etc let new people focus on how to not just to play the game. Each higher league the auto function will be less so can let players to focus on the thing they have to do at lower league plus the parts that not auto anymore. In the end at GM level everything will be the normal RTS should be just like starcraft/starcraft2. I had a very similar thought process when thinking about how to make it easier for newer players to get used to the game and it'll take away functions as you go higher and higher. Not even just auto production mining etc, but I was thinking of having a certain level of units, buildings, etc already set up so you just build and fight. For example, what if bronze league started off with a fully saturated base, 2 barracks, 4 supply depots...it gets straight into the action and as you fight and play you realize you can't let your SCVs die out etc etc | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland14999 Posts
On October 24 2020 03:28 vyzion wrote: I had a very similar thought process when thinking about how to make it easier for newer players to get used to the game and it'll take away functions as you go higher and higher. Not even just auto production mining etc, but I was thinking of having a certain level of units, buildings, etc already set up so you just build and fight. For example, what if bronze league started off with a fully saturated base, 2 barracks, 4 supply depots...it gets straight into the action and as you fight and play you realize you can't let your SCVs die out etc etc I feel that method you end up with players having to learn new facets with each step up of a league or of an MMR. In a less extreme way kind of how the campaign is not really preparation for how ladder is played. Maybe a proper training mode with shiny achievements and points would be a decent fit? You could have all sorts of challenges and situations, you could have high scores and leaderboards and compete with your buddies etc. I’ve never been much of an achievement/award hunter in games, but a lot of people are. There are lots of such mini games and customs in SC2 that I enjoy playing for practice, what if they were all in some officially integrated mode? So rather than playing a marine splitting custom, you play the marine micro challenge in the training mode. Or a challenge to max supply as quickly as possible, you could throw almost any relevant RTS scenario into such a mode. | ||
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virpi
Germany3493 Posts
But there has to be a better ingame tutorial. New players will not find Vibes B2GM guides or similar stuff. They will play the campaign, hop onto multiplayer, get rekt and quit. The ingame tutorial sucks, because it doesn't really teach anything of value. Sadly, there won't be any additions of the sort, because Blizzard. Maybe they could at least implement some sort of ingame tab with useful links and up to date guides. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic10352 Posts
On October 24 2020 04:42 virpi wrote: Terrible idea. In lower leagues, ALL players suck, so nobody is able to macro / micro properly. If you want to improve and are not severely disabled / unwilling to learn, you will improve. If you want to have casual fun, you will keep your 50% winrate at whatever league you're at. But there has to be a better ingame tutorial. New players will not find Vibes B2GM guides or similar stuff. They will play the campaign, hop onto multiplayer, get rekt and quit. The ingame tutorial sucks, because it doesn't really teach anything of value. Sadly, there won't be any additions of the sort, because Blizzard. Maybe they could at least implement some sort of ingame tab with useful links and up to date guides. You see, the issue is that you have to overcome the first 40 games where you get very uneven matches. In case of newbies you get rekt horribly for the first 15 games, maybe even more. This isn't exactly funny experience. There are way easier games to get into than this game. Adding mechanics to lower the bottom so people have more enjoyable experience isn't bad. Also, if you want to improve, you will improve. Sure, but that applies at the same time for the other people on the ladder as well. So they're improving like you do... you see where I'm getting at? Doesn't help that lower league players are being shamed based on their league, right?  MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, if people in the community wouldn't be such dicks(especially during the earlier stages) we wouldn't have lsot so many players. But hey - you're just a platinum noob, nobody cares about your opinion isn't exactly a great counter-argument. (but the idea was here for the 10214515th time - did you hear about copy & paste from predefined replies?)Edit> Also I strongly believe that many players find enjoyable to fight and play with the army. Not play the game - oh fuck, I'm supply blcoked again. Oh fuck, I was fighting and now I have no dolls to play with. etc. Adding the auto-build function(with the slight delay as was suggested) would give these players more joy from the game than building 4 supply depots at a time because they were hard supply blocked at 44 for the 10419501950196501th time in a row. This game is throwing at players many obstacles, while most players just want to have fun with them units. They don't wanna be bothered with macro, supply blocks or scouting, that's why they fail at it and that's why you can get into masters with anything as long as your macro is on point. Edit 2> another VERY BAD thing about SC2 is the instant end. Hey, you didn't look at the army and i just removed a half of it. Git gut nub and gtfo. Imagine you spent 12 minutes of building the army to lose it in 3 seconds of you not paying attention. That's IMO the worst thing about SC2. Or losing 2 mineral lines while you fight because Blizzard had these great ideas about harassment. (great to watch, stupid to play against) Edit3 > recentlyu I watched some Artosis' BW videos on the youtube. he stayed at 2 bases for so long. At the time of his 3rd(Which was delayed according to the chat) you would be on 4 bases at SC2. Maybe even 5. That's way too many for a casual so they can defend the mineral lines properly. SC2 is a great game to watch and if you have the tenacity, great game to play. But boy, the game has so many frustrating things and it throws them at newbies... | ||
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washikie
United States671 Posts
However although training wheel style games do work for some sports I don’t think it would be a good fit for sc2. Honestly I think the system needs to just be more aggressive at sorting new players to an appropriate mmr. In the case of sc2 as long as your opponent has similar mechanical limitations to you the game can be interesting and things like strategy and Tactics are reluctant because your opponent is not light years ahead of you just from playing better. I don’t think something like T ball is needed, do high level and low level players play very different games, yes can both games be fun and compelling I think so. In addition as has been mentioned if easy mechanics are put in for low leagues and then removed for higher leagues in some ways it just makes the learning curve for new players less fluid and more brutal. It’s Nessisary for things like football and base ball where the games are nigh impossible to play at a young age without some kind of assistance for most kids, football due to the danger it poses and baseball due to both the danger and the high skill requirements, but I don’t think Starcraft is unplayable for new comers just a little difficult and as long as they play vs others with the same difficulties I think it’s fine. | ||
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bigbadgreen
United States142 Posts
Automating production only accounts for the most basic of strategies. There is no option to cut worker production to get a last unit out or save up for a higher tech building. It would turn into a fight against your own AI who is using up your resources. Doing any kind of automation involving production will seriously stunt players. Even worse is that it gives a false sense of skill until you get to the leagues where it's no longer there and will be an even worse sense of frustration for the players. I would support some sort of customized build order reminder in game that is tied to the in game clock or supply counter. It doesn't force you to build anything, but could use the voice pack to remind you of what and when to build things. It should be able to have multiple profiles (builds) that can be enabled with shortcuts so that you could switch between strategies if needed (ie if you scout something that you need to get more offensive or defensive on the fly). You should also be able to disable it via the keyboard as well incase your game really went off the rails. Maybe even an automated disable if the game sees that you haven't done the last 3 or 4 steps and assumes you needed to defend a cheese or push and are way off intended build. Most people wouldn't need it to go very deep into the supply count. Just a nice specific reminder in audio format to keep the early game on track. | ||
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Slydie
969 Posts
I am not sure if automated production is that bad in general, but it requires it to backfire. Afaik, Supreme Commander has that, but is a lot more about unit comp and slow, big maneuvers with A-moving armies. In SC2, auto producing units of one kind can indeed lose games if auto-production was a thing, especially from higher tech structures. Auto production Zerg would be hard to balance, but switching correctly between drones and units is an important skill | ||
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greenturtle23
76 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic10352 Posts
On October 24 2020 07:30 Slydie wrote: No, make it the same game in all the leagues. I am not sure if automated production is that bad in general, but it requires it to backfire. Afaik, Supreme Commander has that, but is a lot more about unit comp and slow, big maneuvers with A-moving armies. In SC2, auto producing units of one kind can indeed lose games if auto-production was a thing, especially from higher tech structures. Auto production Zerg would be hard to balance, but switching correctly between drones and units is an important skill The supposed drawback was slower production(delay between the cycles). Which wouldn't help anyone really good but would help greatly bad players  | ||
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MinesMakeWidows
21 Posts
Would lower league players actually feel good about advancing in rank in a game that plays itself??? If you need a build order guide, write it down and stick it to the side of the monitor. I've never heard of a video game that beats itself for you just so you can feel good about playing it. If people like a video game they're probably going to continue playing it. I couldn't imagine playing a game just because I felt like I was good at it whether I enjoyed the game play or not. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland14999 Posts
On October 25 2020 02:53 MinesMakeWidows wrote: I'm not trying to pile on but the more I see this thread the more it bothers me. Its not just about games being difficult, this type of attitude is taking over society. Certain thing in life are suppose to be difficult so being good at them actually has meaning. But now people's attitudes are all about being inclusive, sorry things don't work that way. You have to earn everything that you get in life, no ones going to do it for you in the real world so why should the video game play itself for you? Would lower league players actually feel good about advancing in rank in a game that plays itself??? If you need a build order guide, write it down and stick it to the side of the monitor. I've never heard of a video game that beats itself for you just so you can feel good about playing it. If people like a video game they're probably going to continue playing it. I couldn't imagine playing a game just because I felt like I was good at it whether I enjoyed the game play or not. What value or life lesson do you learn from having a build order on a piece of paper vs on your second monitor vs having it as an in-game overlay? Perhaps such an aid wouldn’t even be game-provided BOs, but you’d have to input your own so the process is largely the same. It’s not about dumbing down the competitive elements of the game, just giving a hook for new players to want to stick around, some may have no RTS experience at all. indeed sometimes making things easier isn’t always the way to go in accomplishing that either. In SC2 it’s very easy to control full armies for example, but from personal experience and going off the opinions of friends who play this leads to some of the biggest frustrations in that game too. Max v max engagements are so easy to set up that with how SC2 is designed things melt so quickly that it’s hard to do much meaningful micro, and the gap between a player with decent micro and one without stops really mattering. Which is pretty frustrating for good players, or players who enjoy the micro element of the game. In that scenario a slower game would be easier for bad players, but it would also give more opportunities for better players to out micro their opponents too Hey we’re just all spitballing ideas for a project with almost no details at this point after all! | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5367 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic10352 Posts
On October 25 2020 02:53 MinesMakeWidows wrote: I'm not trying to pile on but the more I see this thread the more it bothers me. Its not just about games being difficult, this type of attitude is taking over society. Certain thing in life are suppose to be difficult so being good at them actually has meaning. But now people's attitudes are all about being inclusive, sorry things don't work that way. You have to earn everything that you get in life, no ones going to do it for you in the real world so why should the video game play itself for you? Would lower league players actually feel good about advancing in rank in a game that plays itself??? If you need a build order guide, write it down and stick it to the side of the monitor. I've never heard of a video game that beats itself for you just so you can feel good about playing it. If people like a video game they're probably going to continue playing it. I couldn't imagine playing a game just because I felt like I was good at it whether I enjoyed the game play or not. Yeah, then why do we have 1) automining 2) numbers over nexus/gas 3) unlimited selection 4) visible supply 5) visible resources 6) visible map And we can go on and on. Similar people were against the worker numbers over CCs and gases. And now? nobody cares. There are plenty of mechanics to help bad players while not affect the good players. If y ou're the good player, these won't affect you, if you're the bad player - you can turn them off! Ever thought about that? Like, as an example, before LotV Carriers started with auto-building of the interceptors off. But everybody(who knew) turned it on once they were out. But if you insisted, you didn't have to and I am pretty sure you can turn it off now as well. Like, we're not talking abotu the game playing itself. We're talking about things making it easier for the bad players to make the game less frustrating while NOT HELPING THE GOOD. In other words, the game will be still as difficult as it is now, just easier to get in. On October 25 2020 04:32 jimminy_kriket wrote: No. The game is hard. If you don't want to play a hard game, you don't have to. We don't need to make it easier just so noobs can play too. Yeah, the game then could be more liked and more people will watch the tournaments and more people will play it, the horrors! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland14999 Posts
On October 25 2020 05:08 deacon.frost wrote: Yeah, then why do we have 1) automining 2) numbers over nexus/gas 3) unlimited selection 4) visible supply 5) visible resources 6) visible map And we can go on and on. Similar people were against the worker numbers over CCs and gases. And now? nobody cares. There are plenty of mechanics to help bad players while not affect the good players. If y ou're the good player, these won't affect you, if you're the bad player - you can turn them off! Ever thought about that? Like, as an example, before LotV Carriers started with auto-building of the interceptors off. But everybody(who knew) turned it on once they were out. But if you insisted, you didn't have to and I am pretty sure you can turn it off now as well. Like, we're not talking abotu the game playing itself. We're talking about things making it easier for the bad players to make the game less frustrating while NOT HELPING THE GOOD. In other words, the game will be still as difficult as it is now, just easier to get in. Yeah, the game then could be more liked and more people will watch the tournaments and more people will play it, the horrors! I must confess I was against numbers over nexus/gas at the time. Felt boxing/counting workers was an important little skill. Ultimately I think I was wrong there. Legacy especially is so fast and with so many things to be doing that I just think it more smoothly enabled that. More time to doing more skill-intensive things that are harder to do than the busy work of counting workers. As long as any accessibility alterations still leave space for better players to be better than worse players at the end of the day I’m all for many of these ideas. | ||
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MinesMakeWidows
21 Posts
On October 25 2020 05:08 deacon.frost wrote: Yeah, then why do we have 1) automining 2) numbers over nexus/gas 3) unlimited selection 4) visible supply 5) visible resources 6) visible map And we can go on and on. Similar people were against the worker numbers over CCs and gases. And now? nobody cares. There are plenty of mechanics to help bad players while not affect the good players. If y ou're the good player, these won't affect you, if you're the bad player - you can turn them off! Ever thought about that? Like, as an example, before LotV Carriers started with auto-building of the interceptors off. But everybody(who knew) turned it on once they were out. But if you insisted, you didn't have to and I am pretty sure you can turn it off now as well. Like, we're not talking abotu the game playing itself. We're talking about things making it easier for the bad players to make the game less frustrating while NOT HELPING THE GOOD. In other words, the game will be still as difficult as it is now, just easier to get in. Yeah, the game then could be more liked and more people will watch the tournaments and more people will play it, the horrors! There isn't anything wrong with numbers and unlimited selection. These just provide real-time info for the players so they are able to manage their production. The players still have to actually play the game and make their own decisions. I'm not going to argue with you. You're getting angry because someone doesn't agree with you and doesn't want the game to be ezmode so there isn't any chance for a positive discussion. I'll just wish you good luck with your autocraft 1.0 project. edit: The game still has pretty decent viewership and I would guess that many people who watch starcraft don't play it at all or are very casual players. | ||
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NinjaNight
401 Posts
On October 23 2020 08:13 Jealous wrote: This is a REAL TIME strategy game. I've always said SC2 is crazy fast paced and way more real time than it is strategy | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom6402 Posts
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