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On August 16 2020 01:55 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 01:25 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 16 2020 01:16 Shuffleblade wrote:On August 16 2020 00:23 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 23:44 JJH777 wrote:On August 15 2020 21:26 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 20:57 Luolis wrote:On August 15 2020 20:53 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 20:45 Poopi wrote:On August 15 2020 20:43 Argonauta wrote:
Refreshing that for this tournament results no one is balance whining about how OP is zerg. The obvious doesn’t need to be said Anyone who thinks Zerg still has a strong upper hand in ZvT needs a reality check. Not a strong upper hand but it's definitely atleast a bit zerg favored. I'm seeing the opposite is true. Reynor and Serral's results should be considered outliers in any balance discussion. What about all the best Terrans in GSL getting destroyed by DRG and Rogue despite that format supposedly being better for T players? That GSL's long format favors T is a presumption, not a fact. Did you not watch how DRG displayed some of the most masterful ZvT to date against Inno? Why base your conclusion on a single tournament, anyhow? Dream is not comparable to Rogue in skill, stop. Ohh that is so interesting, you criticize his conclusion because his opinion is only based off of the results of the recent tournament. Great I am looking forward to you presenting the base for your opinion, which I am sure is well founded on the results of the most recent 5 tournaments statistics and how the results are showing terran is doing better in in TvZ. If you want to say the basis of his opinion is lacking how about presenting the basis if your own, if it isn't just "gut feeling" that is. I didn't criticize his conclusion, I criticized his argument. I can't criticize someone's argument, if I don't argue my own stance? What logic is this? That is how a discussion works, if we are discussing a particular idea/opinion, hopefully with the goal of reaching a consensus or at the very least broaden our perspective on the idea/opinion everyone needs to take part. Simply shooting down someones opinion is not genuinely adding anything to the discussion. If I for example would say that it is my opinion is X and that is supported by a scientific study that were made on 5000 thousand people three years ago. Simply saying "that study is too small for you to have that opinion" is not arguing in good faith, if you believe the opposite do you have any basis for that opinion? Do you have study(research of recent tournament results for TvZ) or any other basis for your opinion that X isn't true? If not you are not really adding anything to this discussion at all. Just sitting there grumpily disagreeing with everyone else because they don't have enough "evidence" to convince you while not presenting any evidence of your own is only derailing the discussion. Instead of saying why we are wrong how about trying to tell us why you are right. Edit: Seems you did that already =D Will take a look!
I didn't shoot down anyone's opinions. I addressed their arguments. If you have an issue with that, you have no place to lecture me about how a discussion works.
If you argue a claim using questionable evidence, it's not the responsibility of someone that disagrees with you to give their own evidence, but your own to provide more substantial evidence. If the court functions by your logic, there would no longer be any law and order. If science works that way, there would be no science. Attacking an argument even when you lack evidence for your own belief is not arguing in bad faith; it's merely maintaining intellectual integrity of a discussion. Someone tells you 2 + 2 = 5, and gives you a flawed proof of the claim, you don't need to have proof of the contrary to challenge their non-proof.
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On August 16 2020 01:46 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 01:28 JJH777 wrote:On August 16 2020 00:23 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 23:44 JJH777 wrote:On August 15 2020 21:26 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 20:57 Luolis wrote:On August 15 2020 20:53 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 20:45 Poopi wrote:On August 15 2020 20:43 Argonauta wrote:
Refreshing that for this tournament results no one is balance whining about how OP is zerg. The obvious doesn’t need to be said Anyone who thinks Zerg still has a strong upper hand in ZvT needs a reality check. Not a strong upper hand but it's definitely atleast a bit zerg favored. I'm seeing the opposite is true. Reynor and Serral's results should be considered outliers in any balance discussion. What about all the best Terrans in GSL getting destroyed by DRG and Rogue despite that format supposedly being better for T players? That GSL's long format favors T is a presumption, not a fact. Did you not watch how DRG displayed some of the most masterful ZvT to date against Inno? Why base your conclusion on a single tournament, anyhow? Dream is not comparable to Rogue in skill, stop. It's not 1 tournament. It's every tournament this year besides GSL season 1. DRG also beat TY and Solar beat Maru there. The season finals and douyo cup were also not pretty on the TvZ front. The one time the top Zergs either weren't there or eliminated each other in ZvZ was at TSL and soO won the event beating Inno to do so. No matter how many Zergs you knock out another always shows up to either make the finals or win. IEM only had 2 Terrans in the top 12 and they both lost to Zergs. Those series were close but after so many losses Terran (and Protoss) need more than close series. So now it's every tournament this year. Okay. Map statistics:  ESL Pro Tour/2020/21/Masters/Summer/StatisticsESL Pro Tour/2020/21/Masters/Summer/CNIEM Katowice/2020/StatisticsTeamLiquid StarLeague/5/StatisticsOr, do only playoffs stats matter to you? Serious question, because playoffs alone are a very small sample size, which makes making statistical conclusions out of them highly questionable.
Winrates are misleading especially without even distribution. It's possible for a low represented race to have an extremely high winrate without ever making it deep into tournaments. It's easier to have good winrates when T has only a few players in attendance like at IEM. Only 5 players in groups and they are 5 of the best terrans vs a lot of mid tier Z/P players. The fact that they were barely over 50% with that setup speaks for itself. It's similar the season finals being 80% in favor of Zerg because Serral/Reynor were 2 of only 3 Zergs there. I don't believe Zerg is 80-20 favored over Terran.
For TSL it had all the best Terrans besides Maru while missing Dark and Rogue. That plus Serral getting eliminated in ZvZ and some rather large TvZ mismatches such as Lambo/Cure and TY/Vanya explains the winrates. Plus it was played on the mythical GSL S1 map pool that everyone thinks favors Terran so much. If that map pool was actually the cause of GSL S1 then this event should have been much worse for Z.
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On August 15 2020 19:03 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2020 19:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On August 15 2020 18:38 Luolis wrote:
It's unfair that everyone else gets a chance to lose a series, while if you get to the finals without losing a single series you don't get an advantage. Not a hard concept. Everyone gets a chance to lose a series, even the winner. You said it yourself, a "chance" to lose a series is something everyone has but the winner didn't need to use. I really don't see the problem here, none of you who are complaining about this are also whining about GSL group system which can also be called unfair. You can lose against Maru, win against Bunny and come back to meet Maru and lose again. While Patience won against Bunny and against Maru, a player you surely would have beaten yet you never got to face him and still you are knocked out. GSL groups are way more unfair and luck reliant than this. The double elimination bracket is the best way to most reliably get the overall best players into the finals, it removes some of the freak upset potential or the chance for one player to get a lucky streak of just playing his best matchup. It also gives us more games to watch, double elimination really only has upsides there are no downsides. 1. Why does the winner not need to use the "chance" to lose a series in the finals? It's not a separate entity from the tournament. 2. In the GSL format if you play the same guy twice, both of you have lost a series. Therefore, there is no inconsistency. 3. I don't think anyone is arguing against double elimination format. It is the best format for playoffs for sure, but i don't see a reason to not tackle the inconsistency of finals vs rest of the bracket.
In the GSL format there are 2 "winners" in the group stages. A tournament doesn't have two winners and the Ro8 onwards is single elimination so you're comparing apples to oranges.
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On August 16 2020 02:24 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 01:46 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 16 2020 01:28 JJH777 wrote:On August 16 2020 00:23 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 23:44 JJH777 wrote:On August 15 2020 21:26 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 20:57 Luolis wrote:On August 15 2020 20:53 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 20:45 Poopi wrote:On August 15 2020 20:43 Argonauta wrote:
Refreshing that for this tournament results no one is balance whining about how OP is zerg. The obvious doesn’t need to be said Anyone who thinks Zerg still has a strong upper hand in ZvT needs a reality check. Not a strong upper hand but it's definitely atleast a bit zerg favored. I'm seeing the opposite is true. Reynor and Serral's results should be considered outliers in any balance discussion. What about all the best Terrans in GSL getting destroyed by DRG and Rogue despite that format supposedly being better for T players? That GSL's long format favors T is a presumption, not a fact. Did you not watch how DRG displayed some of the most masterful ZvT to date against Inno? Why base your conclusion on a single tournament, anyhow? Dream is not comparable to Rogue in skill, stop. It's not 1 tournament. It's every tournament this year besides GSL season 1. DRG also beat TY and Solar beat Maru there. The season finals and douyo cup were also not pretty on the TvZ front. The one time the top Zergs either weren't there or eliminated each other in ZvZ was at TSL and soO won the event beating Inno to do so. No matter how many Zergs you knock out another always shows up to either make the finals or win. IEM only had 2 Terrans in the top 12 and they both lost to Zergs. Those series were close but after so many losses Terran (and Protoss) need more than close series. So now it's every tournament this year. Okay. Map statistics: ESL Pro Tour/2020/21/Masters/Summer/StatisticsESL Pro Tour/2020/21/Masters/Summer/CNIEM Katowice/2020/StatisticsTeamLiquid StarLeague/5/StatisticsOr, do only playoffs stats matter to you? Serious question, because playoffs alone are a very small sample size, which makes making statistical conclusions out of them highly questionable. Winrates are misleading especially without even distribution. It's possible for a low represented race to have an extremely high winrate without ever making it deep into tournaments. It's easier to have good winrates when T has only a few players in attendance like at IEM. Only 5 players in groups and they are 5 of the best terrans vs a lot of mid tier Z/P players. The fact that they were barely over 50% with that setup speaks for itself. It's similar the season finals being 80% in favor of Zerg because Serral/Reynor were 2 of only 3 Zergs there. I don't believe Zerg is 80-20 favored over Terran. For TSL it had all the best Terrans besides Maru while missing Dark and Rogue. That plus Serral getting eliminated in ZvZ and some rather large TvZ mismatches such as Lambo/Cure and TY/Vanya explains the winrates. Plus it was played on the mythical GSL S1 map pool that everyone thinks favors Terran so much. If that map pool was actually the cause of GSL S1 then this event should have been much worse for Z.
Fair enough, but it's hard to say if Rogue and Dark were present how much the percentage would swing. It's also hard to argue the level of ability these guys have relative to each other, though I do think that they're all very close to each other. Imo, it's better to just look at specific games and point out where balance looks wonky. For example, when I saw DRG's performance vs Inno, it looked so polished and clean that I don't think balance had anything to do with the result of that series.
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On August 16 2020 02:22 tigon_ridge wrote:
I didn't shoot down anyone's opinions. I addressed their arguments. If you have an issue with that, you have no place to lecture me about how a discussion works.
If you make a claim using questionable evidence, it's not the responsibility of someone that disagrees with you to give their own evidence, but your own to provide more substantial evidence. If the court functions by your logic, there would no longer be any law and order. If science works that way, there would be no science. Attacking an argument even when you lack evidence for your own belief is not arguing in bad faith; it's merely maintaining intellectual integrity of a discussion. Someone tells you 2 + 2 = 5, and gives you a flawed proof of the claim, you don't need to have proof of the contrary to challenge their non-proof.
Do you even read your own posts, you addressed their opinion, really? You end your post by creating a strawman argument of claiming the person you responded to claiming Dream was equal to Rogue and after your strawman you go on to add ", stop" to your sentence. You are not addressing anyones opinion you are simply being rude while criticizing others.
As if that wasn't enough you question the fact on why would someone base their opinion on one tournament, straight after basing your own opinion one single series (DRG vs Inno), that is called being a hypocrite.
Seriously read through your own post again and reflect.
On August 16 2020 00:23 tigon_ridge wrote:
That GSL's long format favors T is a presumption, not a fact. Did you not watch how DRG displayed some of the most masterful ZvT to date against Inno? Why base your conclusion on a single tournament, anyhow? Dream is not comparable to Rogue in skill, stop.
I didn't know arguing about opinions and balance is equal to the courts judgements and scientific facts in your eyes. There are a lot of science out there that works simply because no one can find proof of its contrary. Its not facts but its theories and its how most of the world works, besides courts.
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On August 16 2020 02:43 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 02:24 JJH777 wrote:On August 16 2020 01:46 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 16 2020 01:28 JJH777 wrote:On August 16 2020 00:23 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 23:44 JJH777 wrote:On August 15 2020 21:26 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 20:57 Luolis wrote:On August 15 2020 20:53 tigon_ridge wrote:On August 15 2020 20:45 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
The obvious doesn’t need to be said Anyone who thinks Zerg still has a strong upper hand in ZvT needs a reality check. Not a strong upper hand but it's definitely atleast a bit zerg favored. I'm seeing the opposite is true. Reynor and Serral's results should be considered outliers in any balance discussion. What about all the best Terrans in GSL getting destroyed by DRG and Rogue despite that format supposedly being better for T players? That GSL's long format favors T is a presumption, not a fact. Did you not watch how DRG displayed some of the most masterful ZvT to date against Inno? Why base your conclusion on a single tournament, anyhow? Dream is not comparable to Rogue in skill, stop. It's not 1 tournament. It's every tournament this year besides GSL season 1. DRG also beat TY and Solar beat Maru there. The season finals and douyo cup were also not pretty on the TvZ front. The one time the top Zergs either weren't there or eliminated each other in ZvZ was at TSL and soO won the event beating Inno to do so. No matter how many Zergs you knock out another always shows up to either make the finals or win. IEM only had 2 Terrans in the top 12 and they both lost to Zergs. Those series were close but after so many losses Terran (and Protoss) need more than close series. So now it's every tournament this year. Okay. Map statistics: ESL Pro Tour/2020/21/Masters/Summer/StatisticsESL Pro Tour/2020/21/Masters/Summer/CNIEM Katowice/2020/StatisticsTeamLiquid StarLeague/5/StatisticsOr, do only playoffs stats matter to you? Serious question, because playoffs alone are a very small sample size, which makes making statistical conclusions out of them highly questionable. Winrates are misleading especially without even distribution. It's possible for a low represented race to have an extremely high winrate without ever making it deep into tournaments. It's easier to have good winrates when T has only a few players in attendance like at IEM. Only 5 players in groups and they are 5 of the best terrans vs a lot of mid tier Z/P players. The fact that they were barely over 50% with that setup speaks for itself. It's similar the season finals being 80% in favor of Zerg because Serral/Reynor were 2 of only 3 Zergs there. I don't believe Zerg is 80-20 favored over Terran. For TSL it had all the best Terrans besides Maru while missing Dark and Rogue. That plus Serral getting eliminated in ZvZ and some rather large TvZ mismatches such as Lambo/Cure and TY/Vanya explains the winrates. Plus it was played on the mythical GSL S1 map pool that everyone thinks favors Terran so much. If that map pool was actually the cause of GSL S1 then this event should have been much worse for Z. Fair enough, but it's hard to say if Rogue and Dark were present how much the percentage would swing. It's also hard to argue the level of ability these guys have relative to each other, though I do think that they're all very close to each other. Imo, it's better to just look at specific games and point out where balance looks wonky. For example, when I saw DRG's performance vs Inno, it looked so polished and clean that I don't think balance had anything to do with the result of that series.
I'll agree that DRG looks sick right now and that series result would not have changed even if ZvT was adjusted slightly. I just don't think we see Inno/TY/Maru/Cure go on a collective 10+ series losing streak vs DRG/Serral/Reynor/Solar/Rogue without there likely being some issues.
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On August 16 2020 02:52 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 02:22 tigon_ridge wrote:
I didn't shoot down anyone's opinions. I addressed their arguments. If you have an issue with that, you have no place to lecture me about how a discussion works.
If you make a claim using questionable evidence, it's not the responsibility of someone that disagrees with you to give their own evidence, but your own to provide more substantial evidence. If the court functions by your logic, there would no longer be any law and order. If science works that way, there would be no science. Attacking an argument even when you lack evidence for your own belief is not arguing in bad faith; it's merely maintaining intellectual integrity of a discussion. Someone tells you 2 + 2 = 5, and gives you a flawed proof of the claim, you don't need to have proof of the contrary to challenge their non-proof. Do you even read your own posts, you addressed their opinion, really? You end your post by creating a strawman argument of claiming the person you responded to claiming Dream was equal to Rogue and after your strawman you go on to add ", stop" to your sentence. You are not addressing anyones opinion you are simply being rude while criticizing others. As if that wasn't enough you question the fact on why would someone base their opinion on one tournament, straight after basing your own opinion one single series (DRG vs Inno), that is called being a hypocrite. Seriously read through your own post again and reflect. Show nested quote +On August 16 2020 00:23 tigon_ridge wrote:
That GSL's long format favors T is a presumption, not a fact. Did you not watch how DRG displayed some of the most masterful ZvT to date against Inno? Why base your conclusion on a single tournament, anyhow? Dream is not comparable to Rogue in skill, stop. I didn't know arguing about opinions and balance is equal to the courts judgements and scientific facts in your eyes. There are a lot of science out there that works simply because no one can find proof of its contrary. Its not facts but its theories and its how most of the world works, besides courts.
Much tone policing here. It's not uncommon around this forum for someone be impatience/condescending with another. At least there were no insults.
So what strawman here? I didn't say that he believed Dream and Rogue were equal. I only pointed out that they were not, which would address his argument regarding Rogue, DRG and GSL terrans. I don't know what part of "for example" made you think the DRG vs Inno thing was being used as self-sufficient evidence of an argument. It was used to illustrate/clarify a claim. Of course, if I felt like it, I could include many more examples, but I'm not arguing my stance; I'm merely stating it. Try reading what is there, instead of what isn't.
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On August 16 2020 02:43 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2020 19:03 Luolis wrote:On August 15 2020 19:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On August 15 2020 18:38 Luolis wrote:
It's unfair that everyone else gets a chance to lose a series, while if you get to the finals without losing a single series you don't get an advantage. Not a hard concept. Everyone gets a chance to lose a series, even the winner. You said it yourself, a "chance" to lose a series is something everyone has but the winner didn't need to use. I really don't see the problem here, none of you who are complaining about this are also whining about GSL group system which can also be called unfair. You can lose against Maru, win against Bunny and come back to meet Maru and lose again. While Patience won against Bunny and against Maru, a player you surely would have beaten yet you never got to face him and still you are knocked out. GSL groups are way more unfair and luck reliant than this. The double elimination bracket is the best way to most reliably get the overall best players into the finals, it removes some of the freak upset potential or the chance for one player to get a lucky streak of just playing his best matchup. It also gives us more games to watch, double elimination really only has upsides there are no downsides. 1. Why does the winner not need to use the "chance" to lose a series in the finals? It's not a separate entity from the tournament. 2. In the GSL format if you play the same guy twice, both of you have lost a series. Therefore, there is no inconsistency. 3. I don't think anyone is arguing against double elimination format. It is the best format for playoffs for sure, but i don't see a reason to not tackle the inconsistency of finals vs rest of the bracket. In the GSL format there are 2 "winners" in the group stages. A tournament doesn't have two winners and the Ro8 onwards is single elimination so you're comparing apples to oranges.
You do realize that i didn't take GSL format to the argument right?
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EPT
