EPTIf you guys think the game would be better without it come with a better solution, otherwise bio would be unviable in TvZ and TvP as tanks just don't cut it against those units.
In defense of the Widow Mine - Page 2
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
If you guys think the game would be better without it come with a better solution, otherwise bio would be unviable in TvZ and TvP as tanks just don't cut it against those units. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
I don t think so.. Infantry, Tanks, Mines are the basic of wargame, there s no question regarding their role in a Terran army. This thread is more like coffe discussion than a true questionning, it s mainly a way to discuss without any deep interest on the game,... | ||
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
Well, that's what makes the storms great. In the right hands, storms can do terrible, terrible damage. In the wrong hands, it'll still do terrible, terrible (friendly-fire) damage. And for most of us, it will be somewhere in between. Storms differentiate the best from the very good Protoss. This is also true for the opposing side. Storms can do very little damage if handled correctly. Even without detection, the top players are able to forsee where the storms hits - and protect their mutalisks or marines. Even when the storms do fire, their splits are on point - well defended mine drops usually kill only 1 or 2 sacrificial SCVs. Lings can kite storms hits into the enemy units. Storms, again, differentiate the best from the very good non-Protesses. So, why the hate? Why are mines so universally condemned by both Protesses as unreliable, friendly-fire monsters and non-Protesses as game-ending eviscerator of mineral lines? Precisely because it raises the skill-ceiling for all parties involved. And our egos can't handle it. So my dear fellow whiners, let's take a hard look at the hate for storms and reflect on how it can influence the health of the scene. Here's my humble opinion. Anything that creates more opportunities for the top-most players to shine; anything that makes us plebs wide-eyed in admiration for feats of skill and talent; anything that makes us groan or cheer in a roller-coaster of emotions - deserves love (even if its begrudging) , not hate. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
On May 18 2020 12:27 Lexender wrote: If terrans didn't had WM zealots and ling/bane would be unbeatable for bio. If you guys think the game would be better without it come with a better solution, otherwise bio would be unviable in TvZ and TvP as tanks just don't cut it against those units. Bio-based builds had loads of windows of being straight up overpowered before the widow mine in its current form (or any form at all) were even in the game. That's a basic numbers problem. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 18 2020 05:26 Pentarp wrote: + Show Spoiler + Let me first say that I have always hated the widow mine. As a Terran scrub on ladder, I never could control the mines to do as I wanted. When even Bomber could not control the mines well, what hope is there for the rest of us? Well, that's what makes the mines great. In the right hands, mines can do terrible, terrible damage. In the wrong hands, it'll still do terrible, terrible (friendly-fire) damage. And for most of us, it will be somewhere in between. Widow mines differentiate the best from the very good Terrans. This is also true for the opposing side. Mines can do very little damage if handled correctly. Even without detection, the top players are able to spot the slight animation before a mine fires - and protect their mutalisks or oracles. Even when the mines do fire, their splits are on point - well defended mine drops usually kill only 1 or 2 sacrificial probes. Lings can drag mine hits into the enemy lines. Widow mines, again, differentiate the best from the very good non-Terrans. So, why the hate? Why are mines so universally condemned by both Terrans as unreliable, friendly-fire monsters and non-Terrans as game-ending eviscerator of mineral lines? Precisely because it raises the skill-ceiling for all parties involved. And our egos can't handle it. So my dear fellow whiners, let's take a hard look at the hate for widow mines and reflect on how it can influence the health of the scene. Here's my humble opinion. Anything that creates more opportunities for the top-most players to shine; anything that makes us plebs wide-eyed in admiration for feats of skill and talent; anything that makes us groan or cheer in a roller-coaster of emotions - deserves love (even if its begrudging) , not hate. And here I was thinking the game's to be played and not just watched. That's the issue if you balance things around the top. The game's balanced on the top level, while there are issues everywhere else. The best example is bl/infestor from WoL and the old swarmhost. While these things were balanced on the top level(I know BL/infestor was not balanced per se, but people were starting to figure things out - e.g. MC was using MS with some carriers, templars and colossi and it was working even without the toilet), it was pretty broken for the common folk. the old SH is the best example because it requires proper response from the player, yet even at dia1 all it took was to burrow them and place the waypoint. Quick reminder - they were balanced at the top level! This isn't like BL/infestor, they were players winning consistently against them(the best example would be herO). Long story short - this game is complicated for the casual viewer and generally the viewer needs to be a player of the game to make at least some connection as the casters expect a basic understanding of the game. If we lose p[layers because the top is balanced and fuck ordinary players, then we lose viewers. Why should they watch when they dont play the game? Tjhey will watch the game they play more. Should Blizzard balance based on low tier players? NO! Should Blizzard change units which are abused in the lower tiers even when they are balanced on the top? I say yes. Is widow mine this kind of unit? I say yes. (is it balanced at the top? yes) | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
It's not because it can be frustrating to lose to WM (I think it happens a lot less than against banes/storm/disru) that you have to erase it from the game. It's the only choice of mobility for bio from the factory, I don't get why you would want to impoverish the diversity of the game because some players can't deal with this. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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DaveyJosiah
13 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 18 2020 19:51 dbRic1203 wrote: Would it be possible to tweak the numbers in a way, that you had to do extra comitment to actually oneshot an entire mineral line with mines? Like making them less effevtive against workers until whatever is done or something around those lines. So that they are as effective as they are now in straight up fights but have less game ending potential in harassment. During the late game, there are obs all over the map, as well as overlords, or if you want to push the vice, sensor tower, if you lose your entire mineral line on a single drop, then it's almost deserved, and since there's also a lot of static defense the wm die almost all the time, and the same goes for the medivac. It's absolutely no easier, or more devastating, than moving a few lings/banes or warping a few zealot infinitely. Everything is a pain in during the late game, and that's why SC2 is an excellent esport game, because everyone experiences how hard it is to deal with this kind of harass so we can appreciate pro's plays even more, whether they're zerg, protoss or terran. On May 18 2020 22:34 DaveyJosiah wrote: I would prefer if they take away auto-fire for sentinel missiles, and require the player to fire it manually. This would allow high level Terran players to choose the most effective time to fire and avoid friendly fire, and it would prevent low level players from having super efficient hard counters to run-bys for zero apm. It's hilarious, it's proof that a lot of people who don't play this video game want to follow the movement and cry over everything that happens in the twitch chat, trying to add their stone to the edifice. Imagine how difficult it would be ? It's ridiculous. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 18 2020 22:34 DaveyJosiah wrote: I would prefer if they take away auto-fire for sentinel missiles, and require the player to fire it manually. This would allow high level Terran players to choose the most effective time to fire and avoid friendly fire, and it would prevent low level players from having super efficient hard counters to run-bys for zero apm. That's ludicrous, might as well make it so baneling can't a-move and need to be manually detonated every time. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
On May 18 2020 17:01 Cyro wrote: Bio-based builds had loads of windows of being straight up overpowered before the widow mine in its current form (or any form at all) were even in the game. That's a basic numbers problem. Its not, not only bio has never been able to fight ling/bane on its own, several iterations of the game have changed significatively (tech is faster, zealots buffed, banes buffed). Also let me remind you guys that bio being too strong on its own was one of the biggest complain come LotV. You can't simply buff bio, you'll need to give a replacement. I can see the WM being an unwanted unit but bio needs some form of mobile and flexible splash to exist in current LotV meta. | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3382 Posts
 Gumiho said long ago that removing invis on Widow Mines removes the identity of the unit and I absolutely agree. So from a non-Terran perspective on the Widow Mine I think they should be always invisible, my problem with it is that it's a Protoss hater unit and that it's mostly used to slay workers, this is a MINE. I have some ideas for a rework for the mine, but the most essential and important thing for me is that the splash shouldn't deal 40 damage to workers and it should be an invisible units when it burrows ALWAYS. | ||
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Howard_Kao
China261 Posts
I think it's stupid to hate something that can be dealt with practice, as there are people showing how to deal with it perfectly already. What should be hate is things that are (almost) impossible to dealt with unless balanced. | ||
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greenturtle23
86 Posts
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naughtDE
158 Posts
On May 18 2020 06:21 ilax30 wrote: Wait what you are actually comparing a unit that can be very cost effective but can also do extreme friendly fire damage to a swarmhost that 99% of the times gets value and is far far more reliable? No, the category I put widowmines, swarmhosts and disruptors in is: most frustrating designs in sc2. All three should be removed or redesigned. As to Pentarp's point, I admire good reaper control and banshee control. I am not impressed with widowmines. | ||
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DaveyJosiah
13 Posts
That's ludicrous, might as well make it so baneling can't a-move and need to be manually detonated every time. Except the widow mine deals far more damage than the baneling, is stealthed, and reloads. There's no other unit in the game that can be placed, ignored, and just wipe enemy runbys with zero apm. It's hilarious, it's proof that a lot of people who don't play this video game want to follow the movement and cry over everything that happens in the twitch chat, trying to add their stone to the edifice. Imagine how difficult it would be ? It's ridiculous. It would be about as difficult as detonating a burrowed baneling when units walk over it, except the widow mine has greater range. | ||
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