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TSL 5 - Statement on EU Qualifier #2 - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
51 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 Next All
Klyberess
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden345 Posts
May 02 2020 17:13 GMT
#21
On May 03 2020 02:01 TheOneAboveU wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2020 01:53 Klyberess wrote:
On May 03 2020 01:12 KingOfNoodles wrote:
I guess this "fairest server" policy means that if EU players play with Koreans on the KR qualifier, then they would have to play on the US server right? I think that's pretty messed up seeing as Koreans aren't able to play on the other qualifiers. This gives EU and NA players another chance to qualifier and being able to compete with the Koreans for spots with perhaps a slight advantage in ping.

Also, how do you even know what the fairest server is anyway. Players could lie and say they're in Asia, but actually be in NA, just to have a slight ping advantage. I just wonder if this rule can be abused by players to give a slight ping advantage.

I'm glad to see transparency from the organisers, but I honestly think reverting the rule would have been better choice.

EU/NA players are not allowed to play in the KR qualifiers, not sure where you got that from. The actual unfairness is that foreigners with Korean residency are allowed to play in all three qualifiers, while Korean citizens with Korean residency are only allowed to play the ridiculously difficult KR qualifier. I can't say it's clear to me why the organizers are worried about Koreans "invading" the AM qualifier when the upper bracket ro16 contains only two (?) players with AM residency.

What you're saying is wrong. EU or NA players can play in KR but have to commit to it, so they can't play on EU/NA (Scarlett chose KR, for example).

Possible, I didn't see anything about that from skimming the rules. Give me a quote?
EmpireHappy <3 STHack <3 ByunPrime
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
May 02 2020 17:20 GMT
#22
On May 03 2020 02:13 Klyberess wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2020 02:01 TheOneAboveU wrote:
On May 03 2020 01:53 Klyberess wrote:
On May 03 2020 01:12 KingOfNoodles wrote:
I guess this "fairest server" policy means that if EU players play with Koreans on the KR qualifier, then they would have to play on the US server right? I think that's pretty messed up seeing as Koreans aren't able to play on the other qualifiers. This gives EU and NA players another chance to qualifier and being able to compete with the Koreans for spots with perhaps a slight advantage in ping.

Also, how do you even know what the fairest server is anyway. Players could lie and say they're in Asia, but actually be in NA, just to have a slight ping advantage. I just wonder if this rule can be abused by players to give a slight ping advantage.

I'm glad to see transparency from the organisers, but I honestly think reverting the rule would have been better choice.

EU/NA players are not allowed to play in the KR qualifiers, not sure where you got that from. The actual unfairness is that foreigners with Korean residency are allowed to play in all three qualifiers, while Korean citizens with Korean residency are only allowed to play the ridiculously difficult KR qualifier. I can't say it's clear to me why the organizers are worried about Koreans "invading" the AM qualifier when the upper bracket ro16 contains only two (?) players with AM residency.

What you're saying is wrong. EU or NA players can play in KR but have to commit to it, so they can't play on EU/NA (Scarlett chose KR, for example).

Possible, I didn't see anything about that from skimming the rules. Give me a quote?


Players with South Korean nationality are only eligible to play in the Korean server qualifiers (no change). Players with citizenship or permanent residency in countries other than South Korea may choose to compete in EITHER the Global Qualifiers (NA/EU servers) or Korean server qualifiers.


from: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/558968-shopify-tsl-5-update-invitees-ept-and-qualifiers
Klyberess
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden345 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-02 17:48:02
May 02 2020 17:24 GMT
#23
On May 03 2020 02:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2020 02:13 Klyberess wrote:
On May 03 2020 02:01 TheOneAboveU wrote:
On May 03 2020 01:53 Klyberess wrote:
On May 03 2020 01:12 KingOfNoodles wrote:
I guess this "fairest server" policy means that if EU players play with Koreans on the KR qualifier, then they would have to play on the US server right? I think that's pretty messed up seeing as Koreans aren't able to play on the other qualifiers. This gives EU and NA players another chance to qualifier and being able to compete with the Koreans for spots with perhaps a slight advantage in ping.

Also, how do you even know what the fairest server is anyway. Players could lie and say they're in Asia, but actually be in NA, just to have a slight ping advantage. I just wonder if this rule can be abused by players to give a slight ping advantage.

I'm glad to see transparency from the organisers, but I honestly think reverting the rule would have been better choice.

EU/NA players are not allowed to play in the KR qualifiers, not sure where you got that from. The actual unfairness is that foreigners with Korean residency are allowed to play in all three qualifiers, while Korean citizens with Korean residency are only allowed to play the ridiculously difficult KR qualifier. I can't say it's clear to me why the organizers are worried about Koreans "invading" the AM qualifier when the upper bracket ro16 contains only two (?) players with AM residency.

What you're saying is wrong. EU or NA players can play in KR but have to commit to it, so they can't play on EU/NA (Scarlett chose KR, for example).

Possible, I didn't see anything about that from skimming the rules. Give me a quote?


Show nested quote +
Players with South Korean nationality are only eligible to play in the Korean server qualifiers (no change). Players with citizenship or permanent residency in countries other than South Korea may choose to compete in EITHER the Global Qualifiers (NA/EU servers) or Korean server qualifiers.


from: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/558968-shopify-tsl-5-update-invitees-ept-and-qualifiers

Fair enough, are the rules on the ESL tournament page not official then? Because they make no mention of this.

Edit: I would appreciate some clarification on the "new policy" detailed on that page:

"New policy: Players with South Korean nationality are only eligible to play in the Korean server qualifiers (no change). Players with citizenship or permanent residency in countries other than South Korea may choose to compete in EITHER the Global Qualifiers (NA/EU servers) or Korean server qualifiers."

It would seem to imply that South Koreans with foreign residency are both eligible and not eligible to play on NA/EU.
EmpireHappy <3 STHack <3 ByunPrime
argonautdice
Profile Joined January 2013
Canada2718 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-02 18:00:15
May 02 2020 17:57 GMT
#24
The person most screwed by the EU/NA double booking is Namshar (and goblin, but he's already out) in the NA qualifier, because not only was he knocked down to the loser's bracket by MaNa, he also has to play one more series than the other side of the loser's bracket in order to qualify due to MaNa qualifying in EU and forfeiting his loser's bracket match in the NA qualifier.
very illegal and very uncool
sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
8216 Posts
May 02 2020 18:00 GMT
#25
Wouldn't it be better to just use the setup for online qualifiers that IEM Katowice has used? Qualifers are always played in three regions, matches take place on the server belonging to that region (unless both players agree otherwise), and players are free to participate whereever they want.
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
May 02 2020 19:59 GMT
#26
Both of these things are pretty bad, the second one really affects the content and "watching value" of the tournament.

Both the winner's and the loser's finals are default wins.... we could have had quite a few long and high stakes series between some of the best foreigners.

From a player's perspective, i cant imagine how frustrating it could have been to be eliminated by Lambo or Special in the NA qualifier, once they were already in the EU winner's finals. Not to mention the server problems.

Really sad to see such an unfortunate string of events.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
whiterabbit
Profile Joined June 2009
2675 Posts
May 02 2020 22:58 GMT
#27
I know mistakes happen but this tournament there were just too many of them, just too many to be honest. From viewer perspective it really killed my enjoyment and hype to see so many possible high stake games being default wins. Of all tournament organizers I would never thought TL would screw it this badly. Oh well, I still have hope for main event to be epic as previous TSLs I enjoyed watching back in the days.
NUTELLA y u no make me skinny?!?
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8230 Posts
May 02 2020 23:07 GMT
#28
No point in having continent specific qualifiers if they're played on other servers.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-03 01:45:00
May 03 2020 01:14 GMT
#29
On May 02 2020 23:37 stilt wrote:
I wouldn't call it transparency considering these apologies only mention the mana vs special match but do not refer to Vanya and Skillous (his comments here :
) who got unfairly treated too.


This is an incredibly dumb situation, i agree with skillous 100%. EU qualifier goes on EU server period. NA quali goes on NA server. Should not be complicated.

Why would there be a rule that says that if somebody from another region wants to play, the EU qualifier will be moved onto a server outside of EU? Why is this ridiculous rule being upheld despite, as admitted, contradicting the rules when the tournament started? There hasn't been anywhere near adequate justification given. Majorly screwing up once isn't a free pass to continue doing so in the name of consistency.

Why are some people eligible to compete in all three qualifiers while others are only eligible for one or two of the three - especially considering said rule that forces players of their home region's qualifier to use unfavorable servers to match those who are eligible for more than their fair share of qualifiers?

If somebody wants to play on EU qualifier but has bad ping to EU that's 1000% on them. You shouldn't screw over the EU player in the EU qualifier to make it equally shit for both players.

At this point i would be seriously considering rewriting the rules to avoid these problems and starting the qualifiers over as a 2.0. It's not worth compromising the whole tournament with fairness/bias problems like this IMO. Yeah it's a pain for the admins but it's a huge deal for the integrity of the game, the players and the viewers.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany2655 Posts
May 03 2020 03:50 GMT
#30
Mana found the reason why the Qualifier is called NA in the first place
MaxPax
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8230 Posts
May 03 2020 03:55 GMT
#31
On May 03 2020 10:14 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2020 23:37 stilt wrote:
I wouldn't call it transparency considering these apologies only mention the mana vs special match but do not refer to Vanya and Skillous (his comments here : https://twitter.com/SKillousSC2/status/1256337390525919234 ) who got unfairly treated too.


This is an incredibly dumb situation, i agree with skillous 100%. EU qualifier goes on EU server period. NA quali goes on NA server. Should not be complicated.

Why would there be a rule that says that if somebody from another region wants to play, the EU qualifier will be moved onto a server outside of EU? Why is this ridiculous rule being upheld despite, as admitted, contradicting the rules when the tournament started? There hasn't been anywhere near adequate justification given. Majorly screwing up once isn't a free pass to continue doing so in the name of consistency.

Why are some people eligible to compete in all three qualifiers while others are only eligible for one or two of the three - especially considering said rule that forces players of their home region's qualifier to use unfavorable servers to match those who are eligible for more than their fair share of qualifiers?

If somebody wants to play on EU qualifier but has bad ping to EU that's 1000% on them. You shouldn't screw over the EU player in the EU qualifier to make it equally shit for both players.

At this point i would be seriously considering rewriting the rules to avoid these problems and starting the qualifiers over as a 2.0. It's not worth compromising the whole tournament with fairness/bias problems like this IMO. Yeah it's a pain for the admins but it's a huge deal for the integrity of the game, the players and the viewers.


I think the game lacking a lot of really good players is a reason for these server rules. Can you imagine if Reynor or Heromarine got knocked and couldn't qualify for the main event? I mean we're already seeing it in GSL. Code A is gone. Code S round of 32 has become round of 24, and even then, some players are imo, fringe Code S players.
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-03 04:32:08
May 03 2020 04:30 GMT
#32
On May 03 2020 12:55 geokilla wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2020 10:14 Cyro wrote:
On May 02 2020 23:37 stilt wrote:
I wouldn't call it transparency considering these apologies only mention the mana vs special match but do not refer to Vanya and Skillous (his comments here : https://twitter.com/SKillousSC2/status/1256337390525919234 ) who got unfairly treated too.


This is an incredibly dumb situation, i agree with skillous 100%. EU qualifier goes on EU server period. NA quali goes on NA server. Should not be complicated.

Why would there be a rule that says that if somebody from another region wants to play, the EU qualifier will be moved onto a server outside of EU? Why is this ridiculous rule being upheld despite, as admitted, contradicting the rules when the tournament started? There hasn't been anywhere near adequate justification given. Majorly screwing up once isn't a free pass to continue doing so in the name of consistency.

Why are some people eligible to compete in all three qualifiers while others are only eligible for one or two of the three - especially considering said rule that forces players of their home region's qualifier to use unfavorable servers to match those who are eligible for more than their fair share of qualifiers?

If somebody wants to play on EU qualifier but has bad ping to EU that's 1000% on them. You shouldn't screw over the EU player in the EU qualifier to make it equally shit for both players.

At this point i would be seriously considering rewriting the rules to avoid these problems and starting the qualifiers over as a 2.0. It's not worth compromising the whole tournament with fairness/bias problems like this IMO. Yeah it's a pain for the admins but it's a huge deal for the integrity of the game, the players and the viewers.


I think the game lacking a lot of really good players is a reason for these server rules. Can you imagine if Reynor or Heromarine got knocked and couldn't qualify for the main event? I mean we're already seeing it in GSL. Code A is gone. Code S round of 32 has become round of 24, and even then, some players are imo, fringe Code S players.


Honestly I'd love for a bit of variety, we won't have any offline event all year long, if we don't arrange the qualifiers that probably mean no Chinese, SEA or NA player outside of Neeb and Special getting the chance to play vs Europeans all year long. I much better have an event once in a while where the eu qualifier leave out a few player, but I can get MaSa vs Harstem or Nice vs Special in a quarter final rather than my fifth edition of Clem vs Reynor and Heromarine vs Elazer of the week.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4193 Posts
May 03 2020 07:57 GMT
#33
On May 03 2020 12:50 dbRic1203 wrote:
Mana found the reason why the Qualifier is called NA in the first place
https://twitter.com/Liquid_MaNa/status/1256711635999350790

where can I watch the VOD from these games?

this got me very interested..
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
Leviance
Profile Joined November 2009
Germany4079 Posts
May 03 2020 10:22 GMT
#34
How can two qualifiers for the same tournament that are open for the same players be scheduled with an overlap???

I can't believe it's surprising everyone now that issues occur in these kind of circumstances. Someone just fucked up. TL, I am disappoint. Still, shut up and take my money - I love TSL.
"Blizzard is never gonna nerf Terran because of those American and European fuck" - Korean Netizen
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
May 03 2020 12:29 GMT
#35
Live and learn, this is not the biggest of deals
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
May 03 2020 16:28 GMT
#36
IMO, the "fairest server rule" should be as follows:
- Players may agree to play the match on whichever server. This allows for instance, 2 NA players to agree to play on NA in the EU qualifiers.
- If the players cannot agree, then the match is played on the qualifier's server, i.e. EU qualifiers played on the EU server.
Wogrim
Profile Joined August 2019
14 Posts
May 03 2020 20:13 GMT
#37
So this "double qualifier" thing is basically match fixing?
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-03 21:03:24
May 03 2020 21:02 GMT
#38
On May 04 2020 05:13 Wogrim wrote:
So this "double qualifier" thing is basically match fixing?


Not one match was fixed. Two players qualified twice. That meant they could have played a meaningless match in which the loser automatically qualifies from the other qualifier but they didn't. There was no match played where the outcome was predetermined, which is what match-fixing is.

There have been lots of mistakes made with these qualifiers but match-fixing, especially given historical context in SC2, is a pretty serious accusation you might want to be careful with throwing around carelessly.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
FairAndSquare1
Profile Joined May 2020
1 Post
May 04 2020 07:04 GMT
#39
On May 04 2020 06:02 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2020 05:13 Wogrim wrote:
So this "double qualifier" thing is basically match fixing?


Not one match was fixed. Two players qualified twice. That meant they could have played a meaningless match in which the loser automatically qualifies from the other qualifier but they didn't. There was no match played where the outcome was predetermined, which is what match-fixing is.

There have been lots of mistakes made with these qualifiers but match-fixing, especially given historical context in SC2, is a pretty serious accusation you might want to be careful with throwing around carelessly.


Agreeing with you Olli, match fixing is too strong of a word, especially considering there were no top seed(direct to round 2) awarded to these 2 qualifiers, would be a different story otherwise.

That said, people like Skillous not being able to qualify (yet? fingers crossed) due to unpublished rules, even if I understand the reasonning, is a bit sad.
If there was any way to give them a shot be it from LB or something in the tournament structure that would awesome (but I am also not sure exactly how without breaking fairness for other players...)
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
May 04 2020 07:29 GMT
#40
The server issue is not a big deal to me, obviously I understand it is very important to progamers but ultimately isn't it a bit entitled to Believe you deserve an ingame advantage because of where you live?

Historically a european qualifier was played on the european ladder, some players have very low ping and some others have rather high ping depending on where they live. Is that fair and a well deserved advantage, not really right?

Consider that all the World besides korea have to play on either EU or AM ladder, obviously it isn't fair from the start. The rule that makes all players having to play with the closest ping actually gives all players in the tournament the most level footing. Central european players that are used to get a ping advantage compared to some players, why do they deserve this ingame advantage? I Think that two brackets were being played simultaneously was a bigger issue.

The EU and AM qualifiers have been played on the respective servers forever and I get that that is how it has Always been but taht doesn't mean that it is 100% fair to everyone nor does it mean that it should Always be like that.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
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