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On May 04 2020 16:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
The server issue is not a big deal to me, obviously I understand it is very important to progamers but ultimately isn't it a bit entitled to Believe you deserve an ingame advantage because of where you live?
Historically a european qualifier was played on the european ladder, some players have very low ping and some others have rather high ping depending on where they live. Is that fair and a well deserved advantage, not really right?
Consider that all the World besides korea have to play on either EU or AM ladder, obviously it isn't fair from the start. The rule that makes all players having to play with the closest ping actually gives all players in the tournament the most level footing. Central european players that are used to get a ping advantage compared to some players, why do they deserve this ingame advantage? I Think that two brackets were being played simultaneously was a bigger issue.
The EU and AM qualifiers have been played on the respective servers forever and I get that that is how it has Always been but taht doesn't mean that it is 100% fair to everyone nor does it mean that it should Always be like that.
You are missing the point. The rules say the EU server qualifier is played on the EU server. Only if both players agree to play on another server the admin will allow for it. The rules are plain and simple. The admins broke the rules of their own tournament, forced people to play on another server against their will, and now, admins acknowledging that this was obviously wrong, they still offer no rectification whatsoever to disadvantaged players. Hence, this is not about believing you are entitled an in-game advantage, this is about believing that you are entitled to play according to the rules of the tournament.
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On May 04 2020 16:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
The server issue is not a big deal to me, obviously I understand it is very important to progamers but ultimately isn't it a bit entitled to Believe you deserve an ingame advantage because of where you live?
Historically a european qualifier was played on the european ladder, some players have very low ping and some others have rather high ping depending on where they live. Is that fair and a well deserved advantage, not really right?
Consider that all the World besides korea have to play on either EU or AM ladder, obviously it isn't fair from the start. The rule that makes all players having to play with the closest ping actually gives all players in the tournament the most level footing. Central european players that are used to get a ping advantage compared to some players, why do they deserve this ingame advantage? I Think that two brackets were being played simultaneously was a bigger issue.
The EU and AM qualifiers have been played on the respective servers forever and I get that that is how it has Always been but taht doesn't mean that it is 100% fair to everyone nor does it mean that it should Always be like that.
The question never was if it s fair or not, the question was about putting Rule X in the rulebook and proceeding to use Rule Y instead withoutupdating said Rulebook. If they did that there would have been no issue with the Servers. Now we only can assume how many Players played on the Default Server like statet in the rulebooks before this issue occured instead of the fairest server like intended.
It s not only about Mana and Skillous games against Special, it is also about every other Game in the qualifiers beforehand, where Players from differents Servers played each other on default server instead of "Fairest Server" because it was what the (outdated) Rulebook said.
I totally agree, that the Schedule conflict was absolutly bonkers and could have been easily avoided. Not only becase of the double qualification, wich was indeed unexpected, but also because of the Lower Bracket bye, due to Mana s qualification, wich was painfully obvious be expected to happen..
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On May 04 2020 20:37 dbRic1203 wrote:
The question never was if it s fair or not, the question was about putting Rule X in the rulebook and proceeding to use Rule Y instead withoutupdating said Rulebook. If they did that there would have been no issue with the Servers. Now we only can assume how many Players played on the Default Server like statet in the rulebooks before this issue occured instead of the fairest server like intended.
It s not only about Mana and Skillous games against Special, it is also about every other Game in the qualifiers beforehand, where Players from differents Servers played each other on default server instead of "Fairest Server" because it was what the (outdated) Rulebook said.
I totally agree, that the Schedule conflict was absolutly bonkers and could have been easily avoided. Not only becase of the double qualification, wich was indeed unexpected, but also because of the Lower Bracket bye, due to Mana s qualification, wich was painfully obvious be expected to happen..
On May 04 2020 20:33 BaneRiders wrote:
You are missing the point. The rules say the EU server qualifier is played on the EU server. Only if both players agree to play on another server the admin will allow for it. The rules are plain and simple. The admins broke the rules of their own tournament, forced people to play on another server against their will, and now, admins acknowledging that this was obviously wrong, they still offer no rectification whatsoever to disadvantaged players. Hence, this is not about believing you are entitled an in-game advantage, this is about believing that you are entitled to play according to the rules of the tournament.
If the problem was really that the rules weren't updated in time then why isn't that what posters are complaining about?
It is not uncommon in sports, especially esport, for rules, seeding and similar to change while the update the official rules aren't done in time. What the organization usually do in those situations is say "Whoopise, we will now updates the rules", it happens and its really not a big deal. The reason this incident turned into a big deal is because we have players and soectators disagreeing with the new rules which is a totally different topic and has nothing to do with TSL screwing up.
TSL will update the rulesset, the problem is fixed now move on. I agree that naming it EU qualifier and AM qualifiers as being separate under these rules are weird and if these rules are to be kept it should be renamed EUNA qualifier 1, 2, 3 ,4 and 5 or similar.
On May 03 2020 02:11 ThxSub~ wrote:
Skillous has the most logic approach here. Being the EU qualifier, it should only be played on EU.
On May 03 2020 10:14 Cyro wrote:
If somebody wants to play on EU qualifier but has bad ping to EU that's 1000% on them. You shouldn't screw over the EU player in the EU qualifier to make it equally shit for both players.
How about the qualifier follows the rules, even if they are new or old. If you Believe central europeans should get an ingame advantage for living where they live fine thats your opinion, my opinion is that fairness is more important than europeans (or americans) getting ingame advantages because of where they live. What qualifier should Chinese, australians or africans play to get a fair chance?
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You'd have to concede that it's at least uncommon for an admin to directly contradict the written rules after the start of a tournament. In what sports is this common? Also, as I read Julmust's post, the TO did not intend to make this rules change until renegade admins started enforcing it, at which point they felt forced to keep the misinterpreted rule in place for the sake of consistency.
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On May 04 2020 23:06 Klyberess wrote:
You'd have to concede that it's at least uncommon for an admin to directly contradict the written rules after the start of a tournament. In what sports is this common? Also, as I read Julmust's post, the TO did not intend to make this rules change until renegade admins started enforcing it, at which point they felt forced to keep the misinterpreted rule in place for the sake of consistency.
O_O Yeah, maybe I misunderstood his post. I interpreted it as the most fair server decision was an actual decision and not just one admin enforcing a rule that were never meant to even be there in the first Place. If thats how it is and one admin due to bad Communication was enforcing the rule without any real decision being behind it then…. I am sorry for Everything I wrote and agree that this "fairness" rule should just be abolished straight away.
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On May 04 2020 06:02 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2020 05:13 Wogrim wrote:
So this "double qualifier" thing is basically match fixing? Not one match was fixed. Two players qualified twice. That meant they could have played a meaningless match in which the loser automatically qualifies from the other qualifier but they didn't. There was no match played where the outcome was predetermined, which is what match-fixing is. There have been lots of mistakes made with these qualifiers but match-fixing, especially given historical context in SC2, is a pretty serious accusation you might want to be careful with throwing around carelessly.
Well maybe I misunderstood the post. It looked like it said the winner of the first match forfeited the second match so that the other player was qualified without having to beat him, thereby giving him a spot he had not yet earned.
I would consider a forfeit a manipulation of the match results and therefore match fixing; if the opponent is given the win it doesn't matter if you actually play the game.
I do realize my opinion may be in the minority, but I expect players to have the professional integrity to play the game whether or not the results are "meaningless".
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On May 05 2020 14:39 Wogrim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2020 06:02 Olli wrote:On May 04 2020 05:13 Wogrim wrote:
So this "double qualifier" thing is basically match fixing? Not one match was fixed. Two players qualified twice. That meant they could have played a meaningless match in which the loser automatically qualifies from the other qualifier but they didn't. There was no match played where the outcome was predetermined, which is what match-fixing is. There have been lots of mistakes made with these qualifiers but match-fixing, especially given historical context in SC2, is a pretty serious accusation you might want to be careful with throwing around carelessly. Well maybe I misunderstood the post. It looked like it said the winner of the first match forfeited the second match so that the other player was qualified without having to beat him, thereby giving him a spot he had not yet earned. I would consider a forfeit a manipulation of the match results and therefore match fixing; if the opponent is given the win it doesn't matter if you actually play the game. I do realize my opinion may be in the minority, but I expect players to have the professional integrity to play the game whether or not the results are "meaningless".
You consider forfeiting an example of match fixing?! Yeah your opinion is a minority one because not only is it completely daft, but it also diminishes the seriousness of what match fixing actually is. No one's forcing the players to play--forfeiting is no more an example of "manipulation of the match results" than choosing to play.
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On May 02 2020 22:56 CreightonOlsen wrote:
I think I can speak for everyone in saying that if nothing else, we all appreciate the incredible transparency in this tournament. Thank you for sharing your process with us.
100%. To anyone complaining - would you like some cheese with that whine?
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On May 05 2020 15:08 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2020 22:56 CreightonOlsen wrote:
I think I can speak for everyone in saying that if nothing else, we all appreciate the incredible transparency in this tournament. Thank you for sharing your process with us. 100%. To anyone complaining - would you like some cheese with that whine?
Edit: Never mind, but hey, I'm always up for some cheese!
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I agree admins did wrong but if you want to have best of the best, this was totally justified.
Maybe tsl should have 7 qualifiers and always apply best server rule.
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Could all of this have been prevented with an Asia qualifier + each qualifier plays on that region's servers?
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Thanks for bringing TSL back and owning up to mistakes that were made!
Everybody wants the best for sc2 and I am sure the main tournament will be great 
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EPT
