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TSL 5 - Statement on EU Qualifier #2

Forum Index > SC2 General
51 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
Julmust
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Sweden4867 Posts
May 02 2020 13:49 GMT
#1

Official statement on the server selection issues for EU qualifier #2


Hi, I'm Julmust, the tournament director for TeamLiquid Starleague 5. Yesterday, during the first day of the second European qualifier for TSL 5, a controversy arose regarding the server selection, mainly in the series where SpeCial played. I want to be as transparent as possible with the community regarding our decision-making process and what led us here.

There are two main reasons as to why the situation arose, in the first place:
  1. The “fairest server” rule and a failure in communication
  2. A failure in updating the official ruleset.
Before we get into those two issues, I want to explain why we scheduled three North American qualifiers but only two European qualifiers, as well as give you some insight into the structure behind the scenes. Our thinking was that the NA qualifiers would become the natural qualifier for players from all non-Korea regions to play in, in which case NA deserves the extra qualifier. We did not, at the time, believe that players in Asia would want to play in the European qualifiers — both due to the timezone difference, but also due to ping. This decision was made by a group of people referred to here as the “organizing committee” led by me. This group is separate from the admins running the tournament. The organizing committee creates the outlines of the tournament, the admins execute based on the outline.

The “fairest server” rule and a failure in communication
Due to a miscommunication at the start of the tournament, a “fairest server” rule was implemented. In short, the rule says that if two players are to play a game, it should be played on the server where the ping differential between the two is as low as possible.
Unfortunately, this caused matches to be played on servers outside of a qualifier's 'home' continent, contradicting the official rulebook. . SpeCial (Korea) vs MaNa (Poland) in the European qualifier was the most notable example. When approached by SpeCial, who had questions about the NA qualifier, I informed him of the fairest server rule under the assumption that he would play in the NA qualifier. A few rounds into the European qualifier, we realized the flaw in the rule. As the fairest server rule was in place and had been used in previous qualifiers, the decision was made to remain consistent and follow it. This ended up in a big debate before SpeCial’s match against MaNa. The discussion concluded in the two players compromising and agreeing to play on NA Central, instead of NA West.

Both the organizing committee and the admin group did what they thought was best for the tournament. However, the two did not communicate properly prior to the qualifier, and did not properly adhere to the rulebook once the issue was discovered. The person responsible for that communication is me, the tournament director, and I take full responsibility for this failure.

A failure in updating the official ruleset
Another issue was that the official ruleset for the tournament was never updated to reflect the “fairest server” policy. Even though this policy may not have been correct, it was still being enforced in practice, and thus it was our obligation to update the rulebook to reflect how the qualifiers were actually being run.

Regarding the “double qualification” issue
Due to our two-part scheduling of the EU and NA qualifiers, we encountered an unintended situation in which the same two players, Lambo and Special, qualified for the winners match of the upper bracket in both the EU and NA qualifiers. This means that both winners bracket matches effectively become irrelevant, as the winner of the first match would forfeit the other, handing the other player the top spot of the other qualifier on a bye. The unfortunate consequence of this is that other players in the second qualifier were knocked out by someone who then, due to our scheduling, would later forfeit their spot in the bracket. This is a flaw we did not anticipate.

Conclusion
Going forward, we will continue to apply the fairest server rule to the qualifiers. The rule, while not properly communicated, has been in place since the first round of qualifiers and I believe that changing the rules now will be counterproductive and will hurt the players left in both the EU and NA qualifiers.

Reviving a tournament is never an easy endeavor. Valuable experience has been lost over the years which has resulted in situations where we’ve made mistakes without realizing it until it was too late.

However, we are not out to create excuses. Just as with the scheduling affecting the first Korean qualifier, we messed up. Unfortunately, in this case, there’s no quick fix. One positive thing we’ll take away from this is the fact that everyone, from the fans to the organizers, care so much about getting this right. To us that is a sign of how much TSL means to the community. Thanks for keeping us accountable and I hope through this communication you understand where we are coming from.

I also want to officially apologize to the players affected by this rule. Our intention was to create a fair playing environment but we ended up creating the opposite. Words cannot repair the damage done but we hope that you accept our apology. For the main event, we will have clear rules for server selection and will reach out to the qualified players for feedback.

Jesper “Julmust” Bergeskans
— Tournament Director, TSL 5
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AdministratorI'm dancing in the moonlight
CreightonOlsen
Profile Blog Joined September 2018
United States366 Posts
May 02 2020 13:56 GMT
#2
I think I can speak for everyone in saying that if nothing else, we all appreciate the incredible transparency in this tournament. Thank you for sharing your process with us.
https://www.twitch.tv/CreightonOlsen
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany2655 Posts
May 02 2020 14:30 GMT
#3
Yeah A+ for comunication
And thank you for trying to get everything right. It s understandable, that you can t think everything thru after such a long break. Everyone, who has ever organised any cind of competiotion can relate
Thanks for trying your best in giving us the best tourney possible.
I m possitve, that the main event is goin to be sick, as you appear to addapt and learn realy quick, from the mistakes made and listen to both your players and your community
MaxPax
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2749 Posts
May 02 2020 14:37 GMT
#4
I wouldn't call it transparency considering these apologies only mention the mana vs special match but do not refer to Vanya and Skillous (his comments here :
) who got unfairly treated too.
seanranklin
Profile Joined February 2020
9 Posts
May 02 2020 14:37 GMT
#5
So special wanted the fairest server but wanted Mana to play on NA West?
Julmust
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Sweden4867 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-02 14:44:01
May 02 2020 14:42 GMT
#6
On May 02 2020 23:37 stilt wrote:
I wouldn't call it transparency considering these apologies only mention the mana vs special match but do not refer to Vanya and Skillous (his comments here : https://twitter.com/SKillousSC2/status/1256337390525919234 ) who got unfairly treated too.

We brought up MaNa vs. SpeCial as the most notable argument over the rule, causing delays. I'll just reiterate what I said close to the end of the statement: words cannot repair the damage done, all we can hope for is that they can forgive us for this mess.

On May 02 2020 23:37 seanranklin wrote:
So special wanted the fairest server but wanted Mana to play on NA West?

We can't blame SpeCial here. He was abiding by the rules. NA West was seen as the server where the difference in ping between the two players was the lowest. I wasn't in the chat myself, so can't vouch for that being the reason but it's the most plausible scenario.
AdministratorI'm dancing in the moonlight
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
May 02 2020 14:45 GMT
#7
I for one applaud the dedication of TSL to recreate the feel of 2011 Starcraft
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
May 02 2020 14:56 GMT
#8
Thanks for the transparency, that clears up most of the issues.

The only question left is: Why are the qualifiers named after regions if there are no restrictions on the geographical regions of the players or the servers on which the games are to be played?
Zetter
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Germany629 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-02 15:01:15
May 02 2020 14:57 GMT
#9
Mistakes were made, but this is a good response, I think.

Though I don't understand why they're called server qualifiers if there is no rule matches should even be played on that server.
Mendici sumus. Hoc est verum. | I don't mind straight people, as long as they act gay in public. | Es ist keine Tugend edel geboren werden, sondern sich edel machen | οἶδα οὐκ εἰδώς
Ziggy
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
South Korea2105 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-02 14:58:48
May 02 2020 14:58 GMT
#10
-
WriterDefeating a sandwich only makes it tastier. @imjustziggy
BaneRiders
Profile Joined August 2013
Sweden3630 Posts
May 02 2020 15:11 GMT
#11
I honestly think you should play all the games according to the rule book that you have issued. Even in Liquipedia the tab is called "EU Server Qualifiers", not "EU Time Zone" qualifier. or the "Fairest Server". You say there isn't a quick fix, and while that might be true, I think you should have opted for the not-so-quick-fix and get everything right according to the rules, instead of just shrugging it off. You can apologize as much as you want, that will not help the affected players one bit. Those that played in the EU server qualifier had the right to play on the EU server, and there is no way you can justify anything else when the rules clearly says so.
Earth, Water, Air and Protoss!
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
May 02 2020 15:23 GMT
#12
The idea of having 'server' qualifiers where only the starting times are different and where this 'fairest' server rule matters is rather strange in the first place which is part of the problem. Not only were the rules not enforced consistently with the official rulebook, they were also enforced in a way that makes less sense.

Additionally continuing to use this fairest server rule once the problem was discovered doesn't sit right either. Sure the rule had been used at times in previous qualifiers. However there would also have been cases where the fairest server rule was not used due to both players following the published rules and someone got screwed over accordingly. So switching to always using the fairest server rule seems worse than following the rulebook and never using it from there onwards.
Major
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Mexico539 Posts
May 02 2020 15:27 GMT
#13
On May 03 2020 00:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The idea of having 'server' qualifiers where only the starting times are different and where this 'fairest' server rule matters is rather strange in the first place which is part of the problem. Not only were the rules not enforced consistently with the official rulebook, they were also enforced in a way that makes less sense.

Additionally continuing to use this fairest server rule once the problem was discovered doesn't sit right either. Sure the rule had been used at times in previous qualifiers. However there would also have been cases where the fairest server rule was not used due to both players following the published rules and someone got screwed over accordingly. So switching to always using the fairest server rule seems worse than following the rulebook and never using it from there onwards.


Problem with a default server is that u as a player can force that server no matter what. and its kinda dumb and give advatrange to one player most of the time.

there was this case where bly and reynor played on iem katowice qualifier on na server. despite both being from europe someone decided he wanted to play on NA CENTRAL. and they had to play on na central. its pretty dumb and just like that theres so many examples of thing like that happening.
Progamer
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-02 15:47:07
May 02 2020 15:39 GMT
#14
On May 03 2020 00:27 Major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2020 00:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The idea of having 'server' qualifiers where only the starting times are different and where this 'fairest' server rule matters is rather strange in the first place which is part of the problem. Not only were the rules not enforced consistently with the official rulebook, they were also enforced in a way that makes less sense.

Additionally continuing to use this fairest server rule once the problem was discovered doesn't sit right either. Sure the rule had been used at times in previous qualifiers. However there would also have been cases where the fairest server rule was not used due to both players following the published rules and someone got screwed over accordingly. So switching to always using the fairest server rule seems worse than following the rulebook and never using it from there onwards.


Problem with a default server is that u as a player can force that server no matter what. and its kinda dumb and give advatrange to one player most of the time.

Isn't this why it's called American qualifier? This is to ensure that America-resided players get to play with low ping.

The Bly vs Reynor match is not directly related to that as it seems to be a blatant abuse of rules to enforce both players playing on high ping. It is not the same as someone playing from Korea enforcing EU players to not play on EU server during the European qualifier supposedly designed with European players in mind.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
May 02 2020 15:52 GMT
#15
On May 03 2020 00:11 BaneRiders wrote:
I honestly think you should play all the games according to the rule book that you have issued. Even in Liquipedia the tab is called "EU Server Qualifiers", not "EU Time Zone" qualifier.


I know it was a joke, but you cannot assign the qualifiers to specific time zones to begin with:
- The KOR qualifiers begin at a perfectly reasonable time for KOR and EU players alike.
- The EU qualifiers begin at a perfectly reasonable time for EU and NA players alike.
- The NA qualifiers begin at a perfectly reasonable time for NA and KOR players alike.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
May 02 2020 15:57 GMT
#16
On May 03 2020 00:27 Major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2020 00:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The idea of having 'server' qualifiers where only the starting times are different and where this 'fairest' server rule matters is rather strange in the first place which is part of the problem. Not only were the rules not enforced consistently with the official rulebook, they were also enforced in a way that makes less sense.

Additionally continuing to use this fairest server rule once the problem was discovered doesn't sit right either. Sure the rule had been used at times in previous qualifiers. However there would also have been cases where the fairest server rule was not used due to both players following the published rules and someone got screwed over accordingly. So switching to always using the fairest server rule seems worse than following the rulebook and never using it from there onwards.


Problem with a default server is that u as a player can force that server no matter what. and its kinda dumb and give advatrange to one player most of the time.

there was this case where bly and reynor played on iem katowice qualifier on na server. despite both being from europe someone decided he wanted to play on NA CENTRAL. and they had to play on na central. its pretty dumb and just like that theres so many examples of thing like that happening.


That's an argument for not structuring the qualifiers as server qualifiers (though obviously you could also change the rules to minimize abuse of the sort). If you already have server qualifiers structured to favour people from a specific server then having a default server only makes sense. And the AM qualifiers even got more spots due to catering towards not just NA but everyone outside Europe.
KingOfNoodles
Profile Joined June 2012
Australia379 Posts
May 02 2020 16:12 GMT
#17
I guess this "fairest server" policy means that if EU players play with Koreans on the KR qualifier, then they would have to play on the US server right? I think that's pretty messed up seeing as Koreans aren't able to play on the other qualifiers. This gives EU and NA players another chance to qualifier and being able to compete with the Koreans for spots with perhaps a slight advantage in ping.

Also, how do you even know what the fairest server is anyway. Players could lie and say they're in Asia, but actually be in NA, just to have a slight ping advantage. I just wonder if this rule can be abused by players to give a slight ping advantage.

I'm glad to see transparency from the organisers, but I honestly think reverting the rule would have been better choice.
Klyberess
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden345 Posts
May 02 2020 16:53 GMT
#18
On May 03 2020 01:12 KingOfNoodles wrote:
I guess this "fairest server" policy means that if EU players play with Koreans on the KR qualifier, then they would have to play on the US server right? I think that's pretty messed up seeing as Koreans aren't able to play on the other qualifiers. This gives EU and NA players another chance to qualifier and being able to compete with the Koreans for spots with perhaps a slight advantage in ping.

Also, how do you even know what the fairest server is anyway. Players could lie and say they're in Asia, but actually be in NA, just to have a slight ping advantage. I just wonder if this rule can be abused by players to give a slight ping advantage.

I'm glad to see transparency from the organisers, but I honestly think reverting the rule would have been better choice.

EU/NA players are not allowed to play in the KR qualifiers, not sure where you got that from. The actual unfairness is that foreigners with Korean residency are allowed to play in all three qualifiers, while Korean citizens with Korean residency are only allowed to play the ridiculously difficult KR qualifier. I can't say it's clear to me why the organizers are worried about Koreans "invading" the AM qualifier when the upper bracket ro16 contains only two (?) players with AM residency.
EmpireHappy <3 STHack <3 ByunPrime
TheOneAboveU
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Germany3367 Posts
May 02 2020 17:01 GMT
#19
On May 03 2020 01:53 Klyberess wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2020 01:12 KingOfNoodles wrote:
I guess this "fairest server" policy means that if EU players play with Koreans on the KR qualifier, then they would have to play on the US server right? I think that's pretty messed up seeing as Koreans aren't able to play on the other qualifiers. This gives EU and NA players another chance to qualifier and being able to compete with the Koreans for spots with perhaps a slight advantage in ping.

Also, how do you even know what the fairest server is anyway. Players could lie and say they're in Asia, but actually be in NA, just to have a slight ping advantage. I just wonder if this rule can be abused by players to give a slight ping advantage.

I'm glad to see transparency from the organisers, but I honestly think reverting the rule would have been better choice.

EU/NA players are not allowed to play in the KR qualifiers, not sure where you got that from. The actual unfairness is that foreigners with Korean residency are allowed to play in all three qualifiers, while Korean citizens with Korean residency are only allowed to play the ridiculously difficult KR qualifier. I can't say it's clear to me why the organizers are worried about Koreans "invading" the AM qualifier when the upper bracket ro16 contains only two (?) players with AM residency.

What you're saying is wrong. EU or NA players can play in KR but have to commit to it, so they can't play on EU/NA (Scarlett chose KR, for example).
Moderatoralias TripleM | @TL_TripleM | Big Dark Energy!
ThxSub~
Profile Joined September 2018
17 Posts
May 02 2020 17:11 GMT
#20
Skillous has the most logic approach here. Being the EU qualifier, it should only be played on EU.
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