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On May 05 2020 00:32 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2020 12:06 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 04 2020 03:26 ilax30 wrote:
The BC would be absolutetely terrible then. Its already a huge investmen to get them out and again queens should them down just fine most of the time. Nerfing it further would mean terran will just stop using it as a opener alltogether Who cares? The balance team should be changing the BC to fulfill it's original role anyways. A heavily armored late game starship unit, not an early game harass. And in what world do Queens burn them down just fine? If you lose a BC to Queens or at the least aren't scoring 10 + drone kills you are doing something way way wrong. With the exception of Yamatoing and Jumping BCs (wich got weaker since they added a cooldown before Jumping) are pretty bad as lategame; carriers, tempest and broods "work" (heavy quotations) because they have long range, BC having such a short range and being so slow makes them an awful lategame army.
The cooldown before jumping makes almost no difference, it was a pretty lolsy nerf all things considered.
It's 1 second to teleport a flying fortress of 500 health and heavy armor.
Yamato allows the BC player to kill like 20 supply immediately as the engagement starts, so it's a massive exception to be making. BCs also have pretty good DPS. They certainly 'work' better than tempests as a unit, and calling them bad in the lategame is a stretch at best.
BCs are also the only capital ship type unit that has any real value before you reach critical mass. A small handful of broods or carriers are just a liability, a giant sign saying 'target me for good value', while 2 BCs can instagib 2 targets, dish out a bunch of damage and then blink out if things go south.
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The design of the tempest should allow Protoss to counter a siege army on the ground and deals correctly with massive air unit,... actually, tempest is as strong as a stimed-marine with +1 attack but with 5 supply cost. In addition, Tempest has no bonus against armored unit.
Maybe Protoss doesn t need anymore BIG unit.. In decreasing this unit to 3 supply cost and dedicated it to pound siege army at distance would be enought. It s like every BIG protoss unit from Blizzard must behave slowly. In addition, the role of the tempest isn t overlapped by any other unit, so it shouldn t be a problem to balance and design this unit at pro level.
In PvP I remember to see tempest in the late game transition but i don t know how the metagame is now.
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It sounds like every patch should be Terran buffs...
If a race is lagging, it's Protoss, but for some reasons, Zerg got heavy nerfs for ZvT which don't make a difference in ZvP.
And Terran got buffs versus Protoss !
And the main reason Protoss have problem vs Zerg is due to the nerfs they received last patch (WP nerf for example), that were supposed to balance only TvP...
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Buffing Widowmines is like buffing Disruptors or Swarmhosts, it is the equivalent of taking a hostage to make sure you get every ones attention. Other than that, I am willing to give this patch a shot.
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protoss getting owned in tourney and on lader
buff terran yup
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On May 05 2020 00:32 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2020 12:06 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 04 2020 03:26 ilax30 wrote:
The BC would be absolutetely terrible then. Its already a huge investmen to get them out and again queens should them down just fine most of the time. Nerfing it further would mean terran will just stop using it as a opener alltogether Who cares? The balance team should be changing the BC to fulfill it's original role anyways. A heavily armored late game starship unit, not an early game harass. And in what world do Queens burn them down just fine? If you lose a BC to Queens or at the least aren't scoring 10 + drone kills you are doing something way way wrong. With the exception of Yamatoing and Jumping BCs (wich got weaker since they added a cooldown before Jumping) are pretty bad as lategame; carriers, tempest and broods "work" (heavy quotations) because they have long range, BC having such a short range and being so slow makes them an awful lategame army.
With the exception of storm and feedback, Templar are pretty bad at everything.
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On May 05 2020 01:15 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2020 00:32 Lexender wrote:On May 04 2020 12:06 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 04 2020 03:26 ilax30 wrote:
The BC would be absolutetely terrible then. Its already a huge investmen to get them out and again queens should them down just fine most of the time. Nerfing it further would mean terran will just stop using it as a opener alltogether Who cares? The balance team should be changing the BC to fulfill it's original role anyways. A heavily armored late game starship unit, not an early game harass. And in what world do Queens burn them down just fine? If you lose a BC to Queens or at the least aren't scoring 10 + drone kills you are doing something way way wrong. With the exception of Yamatoing and Jumping BCs (wich got weaker since they added a cooldown before Jumping) are pretty bad as lategame; carriers, tempest and broods "work" (heavy quotations) because they have long range, BC having such a short range and being so slow makes them an awful lategame army. The cooldown before jumping makes almost no difference, it was a pretty lolsy nerf all things considered. It's 1 second to teleport a flying fortress of 500 health and heavy armor. Yamato allows the BC player to kill like 20 supply immediately as the engagement starts, so it's a massive exception to be making. BCs also have pretty good DPS. They certainly 'work' better than tempests as a unit, and calling them bad in the lategame is a stretch at best. BCs are also the only capital ship type unit that has any real value before you reach critical mass. A small handful of broods or carriers are just a liability, a giant sign saying 'target me for good value', while 2 BCs can instagib 2 targets, dish out a bunch of damage and then blink out if things go south.
The insta TP removal made BC rushes almost obsolete overnight. It used to be a go-to build at pro level. The delay makes a big difference! It has to go home much earlier now to be on the safe side.
For being such an iconic unit, I like that it is viable! With all the counters which are around and the absurd amount of time you need to transition from anything, I can't see it be common as an endgame comp goal. If you can get 12 BCs, you could probably have won some other way...
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Wardi will be organizing a balance patch tournament funded by Blizzard. Hopefully that will provide a better look at the impact of these changes.
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Wardi will be organizing a balance patch tournament funded by Blizzard. Hopefully that will provide a better look at the impact of these changes.
Cool. Look forward to it.
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The one big gripe I have with this patch is the wisow mine change.
If tvp is mostly fine, why buff a mechanic that tilts tvp in t's favor while rewarding low skill mineral mine drops and demanding 100% attention from protoss.
Isn't that against one of the stated game design goals about less unforgiving mechanics (or something like that :p)?
In any case it's a terrible idea.
Other than that I agree with the sentiment that this patch mostly buffs terran and nerfs zerg vs terran, while it's mostly pvz that needs help.
Two more points that worry me a little bit:
- the oracle change might turn out to be a big nerf because of the CD nerf and the fact that you have to revelate much more often, taking more hits on your oracle.
- the queen range nerf plus, baneling hp plus widowmine buff might tilt tvz into t's favor too much.
The shield chrono is interesting but the current (mod) implementation seems weird. I would advocate for just using the chronoboost on the shieldbattery without an extra skill (for 50 energy) and then balancing around that (+50% energy recharge and + 50% shield healing & effectiveness doesn't sound too bad).
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On May 05 2020 03:26 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2020 00:32 Lexender wrote:On May 04 2020 12:06 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 04 2020 03:26 ilax30 wrote:
The BC would be absolutetely terrible then. Its already a huge investmen to get them out and again queens should them down just fine most of the time. Nerfing it further would mean terran will just stop using it as a opener alltogether Who cares? The balance team should be changing the BC to fulfill it's original role anyways. A heavily armored late game starship unit, not an early game harass. And in what world do Queens burn them down just fine? If you lose a BC to Queens or at the least aren't scoring 10 + drone kills you are doing something way way wrong. With the exception of Yamatoing and Jumping BCs (wich got weaker since they added a cooldown before Jumping) are pretty bad as lategame; carriers, tempest and broods "work" (heavy quotations) because they have long range, BC having such a short range and being so slow makes them an awful lategame army. With the exception of storm and feedback, Templar are pretty bad at everything.
+1
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On May 05 2020 01:15 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2020 00:32 Lexender wrote:On May 04 2020 12:06 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 04 2020 03:26 ilax30 wrote:
The BC would be absolutetely terrible then. Its already a huge investmen to get them out and again queens should them down just fine most of the time. Nerfing it further would mean terran will just stop using it as a opener alltogether Who cares? The balance team should be changing the BC to fulfill it's original role anyways. A heavily armored late game starship unit, not an early game harass. And in what world do Queens burn them down just fine? If you lose a BC to Queens or at the least aren't scoring 10 + drone kills you are doing something way way wrong. With the exception of Yamatoing and Jumping BCs (wich got weaker since they added a cooldown before Jumping) are pretty bad as lategame; carriers, tempest and broods "work" (heavy quotations) because they have long range, BC having such a short range and being so slow makes them an awful lategame army. The cooldown before jumping makes almost no difference, it was a pretty lolsy nerf all things considered. It's 1 second to teleport a flying fortress of 500 health and heavy armor. Yamato allows the BC player to kill like 20 supply immediately as the engagement starts, so it's a massive exception to be making. BCs also have pretty good DPS. They certainly 'work' better than tempests as a unit, and calling them bad in the lategame is a stretch at best. BCs are also the only capital ship type unit that has any real value before you reach critical mass. A small handful of broods or carriers are just a liability, a giant sign saying 'target me for good value', while 2 BCs can instagib 2 targets, dish out a bunch of damage and then blink out if things go south.
Thats the point, people want to add more cooldowns to the jump, if BCs stop being able to Yamato and Jump they get totally neutered in the lategame.
Nerfing Jump not only affects openers and harass it affects the whole utility of the unit.
If they wanted to be a capital ship without relying in jumping shenanings it would need more range, thats very simple.
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On May 05 2020 06:55 Freeborn wrote:
The one big gripe I have with this patch is the wisow mine change.
If tvp is mostly fine, why buff a mechanic that tilts tvp in t's favor while rewarding low skill mineral mine drops and demanding 100% attention from protoss.
Isn't that against one of the stated game design goals about less unforgiving mechanics (or something like that :p)?
In any case it's a terrible idea.
Other than that I agree with the sentiment that this patch mostly buffs terran and nerfs zerg vs terran, while it's mostly pvz that needs help.
Two more points that worry me a little bit:
- the oracle change might turn out to be a big nerf because of the CD nerf and the fact that you have to revelate much more often, taking more hits on your oracle.
- the queen range nerf plus, baneling hp plus widowmine buff might tilt tvz into t's favor too much.
The shield chrono is interesting but the current (mod) implementation seems weird. I would advocate for just using the chronoboost on the shieldbattery without an extra skill (for 50 energy) and then balancing around that (+50% energy recharge and + 50% shield healing & effectiveness doesn't sound too bad).
TvP is decently favored resultwise, but as they said terrans feel behind and thus do a 2 base tank push most of the time to deal damage against the toss that's eco'ing up. So a change is needed imo, dunno if I feel this is the right one.
Plus you can say this tilts tvp is t's favor which I doubt, but the revelation is a huge buff in PvT for toss as dealing with cloacked banshees is made so much easier and also widow mine drops even with stealth can get cleaned up by a single revelation with energy left to spare. So not all bad
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On May 05 2020 08:41 ilax30 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2020 06:55 Freeborn wrote:
The one big gripe I have with this patch is the wisow mine change.
If tvp is mostly fine, why buff a mechanic that tilts tvp in t's favor while rewarding low skill mineral mine drops and demanding 100% attention from protoss.
Isn't that against one of the stated game design goals about less unforgiving mechanics (or something like that :p)?
In any case it's a terrible idea.
Other than that I agree with the sentiment that this patch mostly buffs terran and nerfs zerg vs terran, while it's mostly pvz that needs help.
Two more points that worry me a little bit:
- the oracle change might turn out to be a big nerf because of the CD nerf and the fact that you have to revelate much more often, taking more hits on your oracle.
- the queen range nerf plus, baneling hp plus widowmine buff might tilt tvz into t's favor too much.
The shield chrono is interesting but the current (mod) implementation seems weird. I would advocate for just using the chronoboost on the shieldbattery without an extra skill (for 50 energy) and then balancing around that (+50% energy recharge and + 50% shield healing & effectiveness doesn't sound too bad). TvP is decently favored resultwise, but as they said terrans feel behind and thus do a 2 base tank push most of the time to deal damage against the toss that's eco'ing up. So a change is needed imo, dunno if I feel this is the right one. Plus you can say this tilts tvp is t's favor which I doubt, but the revelation is a huge buff in PvT for toss as dealing with cloacked banshees is made so much easier and also widow mine drops even with stealth can get cleaned up by a single revelation with energy left to spare. So not all bad
What about what Protoss pros feel? Like LiquidMana
If protoss pros feel that their economy is too weak vs terran, do we need to make a change that will allow Terrans to hurt protoss economy even more in the widow mine buff?
Is a change needed to nerf Terran economy because Protoss pros feel it's too strong?
Also, the revelation change is a massive nerf with regards to banshee and mine counter play. A single revelation can only reveal an entire mine drop if the Terran player decides to drop them all in one area. Guess what the good Terran players will do?
The balance team itself literally said the major reasoning behind the revelation nerf is to tilt the balance in favor of WMs.
From the copied official Balance update on the first page:
"This change also interacts directly with our proposed Widow Mine changes, and we’re hoping the net result falls in favor of the Widow Mine."
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On May 05 2020 11:45 BerserkSword wrote:
Also, the revelation change is a massive nerf with regards to banshee and mine counter play. A single revelation can only reveal an entire mine drop if the Terran player decides to drop them all in one area. Guess what the good Terran players will do?
The balance team itself literally said the major reasoning behind the revelation nerf is to tilt the balance in favor of WMs.
From the copied official Balance update on the first page:
"This change also interacts directly with our proposed Widow Mine changes, and we’re hoping the net result falls in favor of the Widow Mine."
You should read well before complaining about the change mate.
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A nice interaction would be if you spot the Medivac early and cast revelation on it, every unit in the Medivac is also under the spell
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Concerning harassement discussion,
The harassement and his impact on economy could be relatively smoothed if workers were less effective per mineral line. Indeed, a widow mine, a banelings or a storm will destroy 2 workers per mineral, it would be simplier to switch from a model of double-harvesting to a simple harvesting with half of mineral packs 2xtimes longer to gather. The IA of the worker will chose the easiest mineral pack to gather,
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Currently the viking is good at things it should be bad at, and bad at things it should be good at.
Landed vikings should not trade well against thors or stalker, which they do currently. Units should lose not beat their own counters given similar supply. So I suggest either remove or lower their bonus damage vs mechanical units.
Instead give vikings one armor. It would make vikings more useful against units that they are supposed to counter, like Carriers.
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On May 05 2020 20:23 MockHamill wrote:
Currently the viking is good at things it should be bad at, and bad at things it should be good at.
Landed vikings should not trade well against thors or stalker, which they do currently. Units should lose not beat their own counters given similar supply. So I suggest either remove or lower their bonus damage vs mechanical units.
Instead give vikings one armor. It would make vikings more useful against units that they are supposed to counter, like Carriers.
Even if i don t know what a combat-test against thors could show, i agree overall, this is a good tweak (I also didn t remember why Vikings damage has been buff)
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On May 05 2020 16:40 Harris1st wrote:
A nice interaction would be if you spot the Medivac early and cast revelation on it, every unit in the Medivac is also under the spell
This is a totally awesome idea.
I think this is the kind of fun little interaction that opens up an extra window for skill and fun gameplay.
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EPT
