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Ranked vs. Unranked

Forum Index > SC2 General
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1 2 3 Next All
neatpete
Profile Joined October 2017
48 Posts
March 29 2020 17:08 GMT
#1
Am I misunderstanding something about ranked vs. unranked ladder? I'll see somebody with a ranked rating like 600 ahead of me paired against me, but since they're playing unranked they have a separate MMR and I lose points relative to their unranked rating, even though they're dramatically better than I am. It's infuriating. Why do they allow ranked and unranked ladder to queue into one another?
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
March 29 2020 17:16 GMT
#2
Given that their unranked MMR is roughly the same as your ranked MMR you should still expect to win roughly half the time.
neatpete
Profile Joined October 2017
48 Posts
March 29 2020 17:25 GMT
#3
So this is just the balancing-out of all the folks who leave instantly? I guess that makes sense.
FightingFrog
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
Sweden29 Posts
March 29 2020 17:44 GMT
#4
If their mmr gap is 600 there is a reason for it; perhaps one of them represents the mmr they had when they played ranked a year ago or they use the unranked for playing strategies they are not comfortable with or they only cheese on rannked etc. Regardless, exactly like ZigguratOfUr says, if their unranked mmr is the same as yours they will have about a 50% chance of winning a game that they qued up with unranked.
Riner1212
Profile Joined November 2012
United States337 Posts
March 29 2020 18:10 GMT
#5
i dont like this concept of losing mmr to unranked players cuz they have nothing to lose...
Sjow "pretty ez life as protoss"
neatpete
Profile Joined October 2017
48 Posts
March 29 2020 18:12 GMT
#6
Okay, the reason for the frustration is that I don't have a 50% chance of beating them if they actually play the game. Say the player is a no-mirror player (a fair number immediately leave TvT). For the sake of argument, let's say you leave every mirror, and that mirrors are roughly a third of the games you play. In 100 games, you expect to play 33 TvTs, of which you'll lose 33. You have 17 losses remaining in the 100 games, which gives you a 50/67 = 74% win rate in games you actually play.

Being on the receiving end, I need to remember that when these players beat me, I'd have an otherwise inflated win rate from every person who ever left a game in the first four seconds. It's just more frustrating to know that I'm going to lose a ten minute game than it is satisfying to get free ladder points.
mounteast0
Profile Joined January 2020
59 Posts
March 30 2020 11:35 GMT
#7
On March 30 2020 03:12 neatpete wrote:
Okay, the reason for the frustration is that I don't have a 50% chance of beating them if they actually play the game. Say the player is a no-mirror player (a fair number immediately leave TvT). For the sake of argument, let's say you leave every mirror, and that mirrors are roughly a third of the games you play. In 100 games, you expect to play 33 TvTs, of which you'll lose 33. You have 17 losses remaining in the 100 games, which gives you a 50/67 = 74% win rate in games you actually play.

Being on the receiving end, I need to remember that when these players beat me, I'd have an otherwise inflated win rate from every person who ever left a game in the first four seconds. It's just more frustrating to know that I'm going to lose a ten minute game than it is satisfying to get free ladder points.




It is understandable to be frustrated to lose to such opponent. However, for the long run, it is not very important / impactful because you will be stabilized at the MMR at your skill level. Even if you loss a game to a "much better" player, you will meet weaker player(compare to your "normal skill level", whatever it means) as a result of your MMR loss, thus getting easier win in the upcoming match(es) and gaining MMR back. If you are playing to improve, then you will find out more about your weakness / point of improvement faster if you are playing against a better opponent.

You can look at the last 100 games that you play and see how many game you lost due to the situation you just described. I suspect it is not the majority, though.

deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
March 30 2020 14:36 GMT
#8
On March 30 2020 03:12 neatpete wrote:
Okay, the reason for the frustration is that I don't have a 50% chance of beating them if they actually play the game. Say the player is a no-mirror player (a fair number immediately leave TvT). For the sake of argument, let's say you leave every mirror, and that mirrors are roughly a third of the games you play. In 100 games, you expect to play 33 TvTs, of which you'll lose 33. You have 17 losses remaining in the 100 games, which gives you a 50/67 = 74% win rate in games you actually play.

Being on the receiving end, I need to remember that when these players beat me, I'd have an otherwise inflated win rate from every person who ever left a game in the first four seconds. It's just more frustrating to know that I'm going to lose a ten minute game than it is satisfying to get free ladder points.

Just a view from the other side.

I play random, unranked. I leave every mirror. That's a half of my games if I count correctly. I don't lose much. If there would be a better system I wouldn't leave the games, trust me. And I know what it does to my MMR as well, sometimes I drop so low I start to meet gold1 players(when I dont leave games and RNGesus likes me, I get paired against diamond #2, let that sink).
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-30 16:20:17
March 30 2020 15:47 GMT
#9
you're overthinking something that probably happens not that often and probably is less dramatic than you're imagining

i play unranked and i get people constantly accusing me of being a "GM smurf" and other such nonsense just because i beat them. i assure you it's in your mind. you have no idea why people's unranked MMR is what it is - maybe they only play shitty strats, maybe they play stoned, or maybe they're just on your level and you're making up excuses for losing

even on ranked you can hit a 600 MMR gap sometimes. stop imagining that you're entitled to always play someone who's "evenly matched" to you. each player is unique, simply do your best to beat whatever opponent you get instead of being in your own head about imaginary "fairness" rules. 9/10 of your games are still going to be against someone within 200 MMR anyway

i've played good games and beaten people 600 above me, and ive played crap games and lost to people 600 below me. why deny yourself the diversity of competitive ladder? if you're so obsessed with the idea of unfair matches then YOU should be the one playing unranked

tl;dr there's nothing unfair about unranked, i play unranked now and i get even matches exactly as often as when i played ranked. if you want to rank up then you have to play better. losing one game to someone playing unranked who you suspect of being "too good" for you is not making the difference of what league you're in, so why do you care?
TL+ Member
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
March 30 2020 15:55 GMT
#10
On March 30 2020 03:10 Riner1212 wrote:
i dont like this concept of losing mmr to unranked players cuz they have nothing to lose...


They have unranked MMR to lose. It's not like it stays static.
Moderator
neatpete
Profile Joined October 2017
48 Posts
March 30 2020 17:18 GMT
#11
On March 31 2020 00:47 brickrd wrote:
you're overthinking something that probably happens not that often and probably is less dramatic than you're imagining

i play unranked and i get people constantly accusing me of being a "GM smurf" and other such nonsense just because i beat them. i assure you it's in your mind. you have no idea why people's unranked MMR is what it is - maybe they only play shitty strats, maybe they play stoned, or maybe they're just on your level and you're making up excuses for losing

even on ranked you can hit a 600 MMR gap sometimes. stop imagining that you're entitled to always play someone who's "evenly matched" to you. each player is unique, simply do your best to beat whatever opponent you get instead of being in your own head about imaginary "fairness" rules. 9/10 of your games are still going to be against someone within 200 MMR anyway

i've played good games and beaten people 600 above me, and ive played crap games and lost to people 600 below me. why deny yourself the diversity of competitive ladder? if you're so obsessed with the idea of unfair matches then YOU should be the one playing unranked

tl;dr there's nothing unfair about unranked, i play unranked now and i get even matches exactly as often as when i played ranked. if you want to rank up then you have to play better. losing one game to someone playing unranked who you suspect of being "too good" for you is not making the difference of what league you're in, so why do you care?


First of all, you're mean. Second, it's not "in my head" ; I can see the MMR in their profile, and I can also see their unranked MMR when the game completes. So, I'll play a game where it feels like I'm overmatched. Then the player's MMR will be 200 below mine or something like that. But I'll check their profile, same race ranked they're several hundred MMR ahead of me.

[image loading]


Here's my entire ladder session from yesterday: One person leaving a TvT, and three people from 4622-4971, all playing unranked and below 4300. The fourth loss was playing unranked but around the same MMR as his actual account which isn't bothersome.

Less nasty users have already pointed out that my expected value is to win around half of my matches. These games where I'm nearly certain to lose are balanced out by the free wins from the same people leaving games, and you're roughly equally likely to get either sort. If you go out and run a marathon, you don't need to have the hope of competing against an Olympian one day to find some sort of meaning in competition. Ditto, if my ladder session is 5 leavers and 6 games where I have a 15% chance of winning each, I may have the same outlook for average points earned, but it's a lot less fun than 11 even-ish matches.

Laddering is more like 10% leaver/smurf bullshit 90% totally fine, but once in awhile you get a super unlucky streak like yesterday, fly off the handle and spend altogether too much time posting about it on tl (whoops). In any event, I don't know how to fix the problem, so I don't know what the point of posting here is other than "I was mad once, internet!"


deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
March 30 2020 17:30 GMT
#12
On March 31 2020 00:55 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2020 03:10 Riner1212 wrote:
i dont like this concept of losing mmr to unranked players cuz they have nothing to lose...


They have unranked MMR to lose. It's not like it stays static.

don't know how others, but i don't care about that.

It's one of the reasons why i play unranked.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-30 17:57:15
March 30 2020 17:54 GMT
#13
I wish they just deleted unranked entirely, now that there's separated mmr for each race there's no good reason for it and it just feed people who tank their unranked mmr just to crush people for shits and giggles.

The ladder should just put you against people of your skill level.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
March 30 2020 18:41 GMT
#14
On March 31 2020 02:54 Nakajin wrote:
I wish they just deleted unranked entirely, now that there's separated mmr for each race there's no good reason for it and it just feed people who tank their unranked mmr just to crush people for shits and giggles.

The ladder should just put you against people of your skill level.


The entire reason for unranked to exist is purely psychological, so that people don't have to look at their MMR (and not necessarily because they're assholes who want to stomp noobs). There's no reason someone couldn't tank their ranked MMR and do the exact same thing. So unranked MMR still has whatever value it originally had.
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
March 30 2020 19:40 GMT
#15
On March 31 2020 02:54 Nakajin wrote:
I wish they just deleted unranked entirely, now that there's separated mmr for each race there's no good reason for it and it just feed people who tank their unranked mmr just to crush people for shits and giggles.

The ladder should just put you against people of your skill level.


I like it. I often play unranked after work because I want to relax, and not get frustrated if I start dropping in rank.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-30 19:46:47
March 30 2020 19:46 GMT
#16
On March 31 2020 03:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2020 02:54 Nakajin wrote:
I wish they just deleted unranked entirely, now that there's separated mmr for each race there's no good reason for it and it just feed people who tank their unranked mmr just to crush people for shits and giggles.

The ladder should just put you against people of your skill level.


The entire reason for unranked to exist is purely psychological, so that people don't have to look at their MMR (and not necessarily because they're assholes who want to stomp noobs). There's no reason someone couldn't tank their ranked MMR and do the exact same thing. So unranked MMR still has whatever value it originally had.


Well if they tanked their only MMR they couldn't just hop back to another MMR and play vs people at their level when they want. (although I guess they could have multiple account).
I have to say I never really cared about MMR in particular, I guess it can relax some people to play unranked.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-30 20:12:13
March 30 2020 20:09 GMT
#17
On March 31 2020 04:46 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2020 03:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 31 2020 02:54 Nakajin wrote:
I wish they just deleted unranked entirely, now that there's separated mmr for each race there's no good reason for it and it just feed people who tank their unranked mmr just to crush people for shits and giggles.

The ladder should just put you against people of your skill level.


The entire reason for unranked to exist is purely psychological, so that people don't have to look at their MMR (and not necessarily because they're assholes who want to stomp noobs). There's no reason someone couldn't tank their ranked MMR and do the exact same thing. So unranked MMR still has whatever value it originally had.


Well if they tanked their only MMR they couldn't just hop back to another MMR and play vs people at their level when they want. (although I guess they could have multiple account).
I have to say I never really cared about MMR in particular, I guess it can relax some people to play unranked.

Many people, myself included, have the ladder anxiety. Seeing your MMR drop, losing points and eventually losing W/R isn't fun. One of the reasons why i moved to unranked is that I had for 4 seasons 48 % win rate. 4. seasons. in. a. row.

Imagine that. You losing more than you win, you know that and yet ladder is giving you every time harder and harder enemies. I was on a losing w/r in the diamond league and occassionally i have seen masters. AFTER LOSSES.

MAybe my account was broken, maybe I was just unlucky(hots, hidden MMR), who knows. All I know is that now with unranked I
1) Don't care about losing
2) Don't do warm up games(because now I can jump into the game after a winning streak and who cares, so I lose)
3) Can leave mirrors I hate(especially PvP and Protoss used to be my main, it also used to be the most represented race in the diamond in hots, one time i left 14 games in a row - all PvPs)
4) Can select all the maps(as I can leave a map if it's a bad map for certain MU, hey, Blizz, gimme banning maps based on the MU)

It actually works. Give me a button so I don't have to play mirrors(in unranked, why not?) and I stop leaving games. Oh, yeah, I leave against barcodes, but that's like a game in a dozen

Edit> 48 % and I played a lot of games, it wasn't a case of the system not knowing me well. Every season I had at least 200 games(usually more). The ladder wasn't fun experience on ranked. Not at all and I doubt it will be now with adepts and disruptors.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
March 30 2020 21:53 GMT
#18
On March 31 2020 05:09 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2020 04:46 Nakajin wrote:
On March 31 2020 03:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 31 2020 02:54 Nakajin wrote:
I wish they just deleted unranked entirely, now that there's separated mmr for each race there's no good reason for it and it just feed people who tank their unranked mmr just to crush people for shits and giggles.

The ladder should just put you against people of your skill level.


The entire reason for unranked to exist is purely psychological, so that people don't have to look at their MMR (and not necessarily because they're assholes who want to stomp noobs). There's no reason someone couldn't tank their ranked MMR and do the exact same thing. So unranked MMR still has whatever value it originally had.


Well if they tanked their only MMR they couldn't just hop back to another MMR and play vs people at their level when they want. (although I guess they could have multiple account).
I have to say I never really cared about MMR in particular, I guess it can relax some people to play unranked.

Many people, myself included, have the ladder anxiety. Seeing your MMR drop, losing points and eventually losing W/R isn't fun. One of the reasons why i moved to unranked is that I had for 4 seasons 48 % win rate. 4. seasons. in. a. row.

Imagine that. You losing more than you win, you know that and yet ladder is giving you every time harder and harder enemies. I was on a losing w/r in the diamond league and occassionally i have seen masters. AFTER LOSSES.

MAybe my account was broken, maybe I was just unlucky(hots, hidden MMR), who knows. All I know is that now with unranked I
1) Don't care about losing
2) Don't do warm up games(because now I can jump into the game after a winning streak and who cares, so I lose)
3) Can leave mirrors I hate(especially PvP and Protoss used to be my main, it also used to be the most represented race in the diamond in hots, one time i left 14 games in a row - all PvPs)
4) Can select all the maps(as I can leave a map if it's a bad map for certain MU, hey, Blizz, gimme banning maps based on the MU)

It actually works. Give me a button so I don't have to play mirrors(in unranked, why not?) and I stop leaving games. Oh, yeah, I leave against barcodes, but that's like a game in a dozen

Edit> 48 % and I played a lot of games, it wasn't a case of the system not knowing me well. Every season I had at least 200 games(usually more). The ladder wasn't fun experience on ranked. Not at all and I doubt it will be now with adepts and disruptors.


As an aside having a 48% winrate isn't that unlikely. If you assume every game is a perfect coin flip and you played 1000 games you still have a 10% chance of having a 48% or smaller winrate.

Furthermore MMR doesn't guarantee a 50% winrate. You could have a 30% winrate due to constantly getting matched up with players that are much better than you are or conversely a 70% winrate due to constantly getting matched up with players that are much worse than you are, and still not gain or lose MMR (though due to how matchmaking works in Starcraft that most likely only noticeably happens to players at the two extremities of the bell curve).

But w/e as long as you're happy with unranked.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
March 30 2020 22:08 GMT
#19
Let people on unranked veto matchups.
No more leaving and people can train matchups properly.
Solves the problem.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-30 22:17:40
March 30 2020 22:14 GMT
#20
On March 31 2020 06:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2020 05:09 deacon.frost wrote:
On March 31 2020 04:46 Nakajin wrote:
On March 31 2020 03:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On March 31 2020 02:54 Nakajin wrote:
I wish they just deleted unranked entirely, now that there's separated mmr for each race there's no good reason for it and it just feed people who tank their unranked mmr just to crush people for shits and giggles.

The ladder should just put you against people of your skill level.


The entire reason for unranked to exist is purely psychological, so that people don't have to look at their MMR (and not necessarily because they're assholes who want to stomp noobs). There's no reason someone couldn't tank their ranked MMR and do the exact same thing. So unranked MMR still has whatever value it originally had.


Well if they tanked their only MMR they couldn't just hop back to another MMR and play vs people at their level when they want. (although I guess they could have multiple account).
I have to say I never really cared about MMR in particular, I guess it can relax some people to play unranked.

Many people, myself included, have the ladder anxiety. Seeing your MMR drop, losing points and eventually losing W/R isn't fun. One of the reasons why i moved to unranked is that I had for 4 seasons 48 % win rate. 4. seasons. in. a. row.

Imagine that. You losing more than you win, you know that and yet ladder is giving you every time harder and harder enemies. I was on a losing w/r in the diamond league and occassionally i have seen masters. AFTER LOSSES.

MAybe my account was broken, maybe I was just unlucky(hots, hidden MMR), who knows. All I know is that now with unranked I
1) Don't care about losing
2) Don't do warm up games(because now I can jump into the game after a winning streak and who cares, so I lose)
3) Can leave mirrors I hate(especially PvP and Protoss used to be my main, it also used to be the most represented race in the diamond in hots, one time i left 14 games in a row - all PvPs)
4) Can select all the maps(as I can leave a map if it's a bad map for certain MU, hey, Blizz, gimme banning maps based on the MU)

It actually works. Give me a button so I don't have to play mirrors(in unranked, why not?) and I stop leaving games. Oh, yeah, I leave against barcodes, but that's like a game in a dozen

Edit> 48 % and I played a lot of games, it wasn't a case of the system not knowing me well. Every season I had at least 200 games(usually more). The ladder wasn't fun experience on ranked. Not at all and I doubt it will be now with adepts and disruptors.


As an aside having a 48% winrate isn't that unlikely. If you assume every game is a perfect coin flip and you played 1000 games you still have a 10% chance of having a 48% or smaller winrate.

Furthermore MMR doesn't guarantee a 50% winrate. You could have a 30% winrate due to constantly getting matched up with players that are much better than you are or conversely a 70% winrate due to constantly getting matched up with players that are much worse than you are, and still not gain or lose MMR (though due to how matchmaking works in Starcraft that most likely only noticeably happens to players at the two extremities of the bell curve).

But w/e as long as you're happy with unranked.


I actually complained about it here before in the MMR thread, I believe it was a bug. A very frustrating one :/

Long term wise - unless you're at the very top or bottom - this system, if you play many games, should give you 50 % wr. Roughly. the issue is that I had a feeling I am losing more than winning and the WR screen confirmed this. Maybe it wasn't bug and it was balancing the random 54 % wr season i had before, who knows. All I know is that losing more than winning wasn't fun, doesn't happen on unranked
(well, maybe it does, but I have no screen to see it )
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
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