WCSCool Things From 2019: Maru wins Code S #4
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gophersnake
33 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada5588 Posts
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Paljas
Germany6705 Posts
On January 15 2020 10:47 Xain0n wrote: It's 2020 and people still refuse to accept that international tournaments bearing GSL's name are GSL tournaments. Let me understand, GomTV itself recognized Mvp as four time winner and had a special trophy commissioned because of that but now clearly they were wrong because you get to decide what counts and what doesn't? He won 4 GSL, but not 4 Code S, and Code S are the only ones that truly matter. | ||
Elentos
49153 Posts
On January 15 2020 23:52 Paljas wrote: He won 4 GSL, but not 4 Code S, and Code S are the only ones that truly matter. But he would have won the G5L trophy anyway, which is more important than anything else. So do our views on the importance of events even matter? What Mvp won was essentially a Code S (in its format at the time where the Ro16 was still part of the bracket) without the group stage. Or a (somewhat more difficult) GSL vs the World by today's standards, but drawn out over more than a weekend. | ||
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joon
United States665 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain2003 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom7115 Posts
On January 15 2020 10:47 Xain0n wrote: It's 2020 and people still refuse to accept that international tournaments bearing GSL's name are GSL tournaments. Let me understand, GomTV itself recognized Mvp as four time winner and had a special trophy commissioned because of that but now clearly they were wrong because you get to decide what counts and what doesn't? Because the standards that damn near everyone agrees with apply to everyone but Mvp apparently. The community unanimously agrees Maru won four GSLs in a row, despite the fact there was a GSL vs The World in the middle. Also that soO made four finals in a row when there was a GSL global championship between them. Everyone calls NesTea the first back-to-back champion, despite there also being a global "GSL" tournament in between them. (they also consider Polt to be a GSL champ as well funnily enough). No one considers Zest a back-to-back champion, when he won a Code S followed by a GSL global championship, or even that he won three GSLs. No one considers INno a back-to-back champ either when he did the same. There isn't a G5L trophy ready for every time Maru plays in super tournaments or GSL vs the World. In fact no one mentions the G5L during those events. Serral won two GSL vs the World but the biggest criticism of him to this day is still that he doesn't play/hasn't won a Code S. The list goes on, but the point is that Mvp's G5L was just for marketing purposes. When someone mentions winning GSL, they're almost certainly refering to the starleague. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy2795 Posts
On January 16 2020 04:09 Fango wrote: Because the standards that damn near everyone agrees with apply to everyone but Mvp apparently. The community unanimously agrees Maru won four GSLs in a row, despite the fact there was a GSL vs The World in the middle. Also that soO made four finals in a row when there was a GSL global championship between them. Everyone calls NesTea the first back-to-back champion, despite there also being a global "GSL" tournament in between them. (they also consider Polt to be a GSL champ as well funnily enough). No one considers Zest a back-to-back champion, when he won a Code S followed by a GSL global championship, or even that he won three GSLs. No one considers INno a back-to-back champ either when he did the same. There isn't a G5L trophy ready for every time Maru plays in super tournaments or GSL vs the World. In fact no one mentions the G5L during those events. Serral won two GSL vs the World but the biggest criticism of him to this day is still that he doesn't play/hasn't won a Code S. The list goes on, but the point is that Mvp's G5L was just for marketing purposes. When someone mentions winning GSL, they're almost certainly refering to the starleague. Code S is a GSL tournament but not every GSL tournament is a Code S; they are basically used as synonyms nowadays but they aren't. This means that Maru and Nestea are back to back Code S champions, not GSL ones, both Polt and Serral won GSL titles and Inno has as many GSL trophies as Maru and Mvp. It's not funny, it's not weird, it's clear and coherent! What is true is that Code S is the most prestigious GSL tournament, because of its peculiar structure, tests different skills if compared to many other tournaments; people would like to see Serral play in Code S specifically, not just in a GSL Super Tournament. Mvp's G5L trophy was an idea of GomTV, which is not running GSL anymore, otherwise there would have been another G5L trophy dedicated to Inno one year and half before the Maru's one you are speaking of. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain2003 Posts
On January 16 2020 05:21 Xain0n wrote: Code S is a GSL tournament but not every GSL tournament is a Code S; they are basically used as synonyms nowadays but they aren't. This means that Maru and Nestea are back to back Code S champions, not GSL ones, both Polt and Serral won GSL titles and Inno has as many GSL trophies as Maru and Mvp. It's not funny, it's not weird, it's clear and coherent! What is true is that Code S is the most prestigious GSL tournament, because of its peculiar structure, tests different skills if compared to many other tournaments; people would like to see Serral play in Code S specifically, not just in a GSL Super Tournament. Mvp's G5L trophy was an idea of GomTV, which is not running GSL anymore, otherwise there would have been another G5L trophy dedicated to Inno one year and half before the Maru's one you are speaking of. Sorry but Fango points are quite strong, maybe back then GomTV consideration was ok, but not nowadays. In todays standarts GSL == CODE S | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom7115 Posts
On January 16 2020 05:21 Xain0n wrote: Code S is a GSL tournament but not every GSL tournament is a Code S; they are basically used as synonyms nowadays but they aren't. This means that Maru and Nestea are back to back Code S champions, not GSL ones, both Polt and Serral won GSL titles and Inno has as many GSL trophies as Maru and Mvp. It's not funny, it's not weird, it's clear and coherent! Obviously I don't disagree with any of this, I'm just saying that Mvp's G5L goes against the criteria that the community/casters/GSL themselves have for every other player. For everyone but Mvp, the idea of winning multiple (in this case 5) GSLs, is referring strictly to the starleague. The community doesn't consider Zest or INno to be back-to-back GSL champions right? Never heard anyone claim that like they do for Maru and NesTea. There isn't a G5L trophy ready for if Maru or INno win a super tournament or GSLvsTW either. Honestly I don't really care if people think super tournaments etc should count as a GSL title and contribute to winning a G5L, that's an entirely fair opinion to have. But you have to apply it to either every player, or none of them. | ||
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Wombat_NI
Northern Ireland12362 Posts
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Waxangel
United States28021 Posts
On January 16 2020 06:30 Fango wrote: Obviously I don't disagree with any of this, I'm just saying that Mvp's G5L goes against the criteria that the community/casters/GSL themselves have for every other player. For everyone but Mvp, the idea of winning multiple (in this case 5) GSLs, is referring strictly to the starleague. The community doesn't consider Zest or INno to be back-to-back GSL champions right? Never heard anyone claim that like they do for Maru and NesTea. There isn't a G5L trophy ready for if Maru or INno win a super tournament or GSLvsTW either. Honestly I don't really care if people think super tournaments etc should count as a GSL title and contribute to winning a G5L, that's an entirely fair opinion to have. But you have to apply it to either every player, or none of them. I, too, appreciate how goddamn stupid this all is. I also appreciate that Blizzard made WCS Winter: EU & AM 2019 to make Circuit accounting needlessly complicated as well  | ||
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Xain0n
Italy2795 Posts
On January 16 2020 06:30 Fango wrote: Obviously I don't disagree with any of this, I'm just saying that Mvp's G5L goes against the criteria that the community/casters/GSL themselves have for every other player. For everyone but Mvp, the idea of winning multiple (in this case 5) GSLs, is referring strictly to the starleague. The community doesn't consider Zest or INno to be back-to-back GSL champions right? Never heard anyone claim that like they do for Maru and NesTea. There isn't a G5L trophy ready for if Maru or INno win a super tournament or GSLvsTW either. Honestly I don't really care if people think super tournaments etc should count as a GSL title and contribute to winning a G5L, that's an entirely fair opinion to have. But you have to apply it to either every player, or none of them. Technically Inno and Zest are indeed back to back GSL champions(it actually sounds weird to me as well, but that's it) but they are not back to back Code S champions; anything that community or casters might think about it does not change the fact that Super Tournaments and old GomTV competitions are GSL events, making them count for the G5L trophy(according to the logic GomTV used back in the days). I suspect that the absence of a trophy dedicated to Inno or Maru is just tied to the fact Afreeca has no interest in creating new ones; maybe GomTV would have. Of course, the criteria in use for assigning the trophy are the same for everyone and would be applied to any player winning GSL titles. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada5588 Posts
On the plus side if we count them all it mean Kyrix has now overtrown Seed and jjackji for most insignificant GSL champ. (Well maybe not) | ||
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Xain0n
Italy2795 Posts
On January 16 2020 14:26 Nakajin wrote: GSL changed production company so it makes it hard to tell what they would count as GSL, it's also kinda weird that KC aren't count but ST are, despite being pretty much the same. On the plus side if we count them all it mean Kyrix has now overtrown Seed and jjackji for most insignificant GSL champ. (Well maybe not) Kespa Cups were not GSL events, so they are not considered; it's the same with OSL. King of Kongs is classified as a Major tournament. | ||
Ziggy
Poland1477 Posts
neither is the GSL vs the World for that matter its all on a case-by-case basis, hence that one Mvp title people are contesting | ||
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barana
Iran1 Post
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Poopi
France9374 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom7115 Posts
On January 16 2020 19:57 Ziggy wrote: both the Super Tournament and KeSPA Cup aren't considered 'premier' in a Korean sense btw neither is the GSL vs the World for that matter its all on a case-by-case basis, hence that one Mvp title people are contesting I still don't know if people just didn't count soO's kespa cup as a significant event, or if they did but just ignored it as to fit the most iconic narrative in sc2. | ||
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Waxangel
United States28021 Posts
On January 16 2020 22:33 Fango wrote: I still don't know if people just didn't count soO's kespa cup as a significant event, or if they did but just ignored it as to fit the most iconic narrative in sc2. I'm pretty sure the Korean fan system for counting soO's championships actually has basis in objective criteria: the WCS 2013-2016 tier system. Basically, Blizzard assigned 3rd party tournaments Tier 1~3 status depending on format, prize money, # of players, and a variety of other factors. KeSPA Cup was Tier 2, and is not counted. And consistent with that, soO's 2nd place finishes at IEM Gamescom and DreamHack Stockholm are usually not counted against him (thus, why they say "fall down 7 times, get up 8 times" instead of saying he has 9~10 runner-ups). Now, all the aforementioned stuff about GomTV not knowing when to prep the G5L trophy, or stuff like GomTV forgetting Trap won an MLG is just completely arbitrary. | ||
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