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On June 07 2019 02:11 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 01:57 Jimmon wrote:Too much Protoss hate, yet I still think it's still a balanced match up over-all though..  Even if we all agree that PvZ was balanced, I personally believe it is very un-enjoyable to watch especially in the Korean Pro Scene. The games are short and there is no back in forth in the game. One side always seems to just roll over the other or fail miserably in a push and just GG. And while 50 different ways to rush/cheese/proxy/allin to mass kill drones is fun to watch when a player produces a new version unseen before it all gets old very fast. Screw the balance talk, that matchup just simply isn't fun as a spectator this year.
I respectfully would like to disagree; I really enjoy watching these types of games. I've always been a Stats fan and like end game plays, but sharp timings and mind gaming opponents seems to be working a lot lately from Protoss players, and I feel like multiple baneling all ins could beat many of these greedy Protoss builds that seem to work on GSL and other premier tournaments.
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pvpLeague is great cant wait for the next gsl from the round of 16 onwards all being pvp !! and cant wait for the pvp finals that we need
User was warned for this post
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On June 07 2019 02:11 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 01:57 Jimmon wrote:Too much Protoss hate, yet I still think it's still a balanced match up over-all though.. Even if we all agree that PvZ was balanced, I personally believe it is very un-enjoyable to watch especially in the Korean Pro Scene. The games are short and there is no back in forth in the game. One side always seems to just roll over the other or fail miserably in a push and just GG. And while 50 different ways to rush/cheese/proxy/allin to mass kill drones is fun to watch when a player produces a new version unseen before it all gets old very fast. Screw the balance talk, that matchup just simply isn't fun as a spectator this year.
I don't think that many people agree it's balanced - but I definitely agree with the spectator aspect you are talking about - there aren't a whole lot of games that dont seem entirely decided by the 7th or 8th minute - makes it very dull to watch.
Regarding the balance in PvZ - I think the main issue there is the fact that there are an insane amount of robo first / twilight first variants that have very different timings and very different responses required. In a vacuum I don't think any of these builds are impossible to hold for the Zerg player - but collectively it turns the game into a coin flip. For instance - the infamous Margery build can be held in a couple of ways - we've seen Reynor do it with ling bane and some other pro's do it with ling ravager. In both cases though it requires skipping Lair - and we now know there are robo first DT timings that can hit by 4:30 - and without a Lair they will almost always do critical damage. On top of this - there are delayed immo / prism pushes that look the same that require more drones and plus 1 to deal with. In the end what we are seeing now is a bunch of the top level Z pro's opening overlord speed every game - which in itself can make holding some of these builds very very difficult - and the fact that the Protoss player can set up for these and then opt out into a normal macro game when they see overlord speed and a zerg player holding drones puts the Zerg in a really tough spot.
Conversely - we are seeing the stronger macro zergs like Serral / Lambo having a nice time once they get to late game - so I wouldn't say that just nerfing these pushes is necessarily the right thing to do - they may need to propose some compensation.
I'm not even going to talk about PvT - because we've been through it 1000 times going on 2 years now since they broke the match-up - I don't know how they can fix it without breaking PvZ etc - so we'll just keep on watching Terrans come up with new 2 base all ins and win for a while - and then lose again once Toss figures out how to sniff em out and counter etc.
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On June 07 2019 02:56 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 01:30 Proko wrote:On June 06 2019 13:56 machinus wrote:
Warp Prism seems way too good. This is my take as well. Would like to see a pickup range nerf and a power field size nerf. Need to be careful with prism nerf since its so critical to balance. Protoss is dominating now but with such a drastic nerf some of the other openings like archon drops would also get completely shut down. A small change might be that when in warp in mode it cannot pick up units and when in prism mode with units inside it, it cannot switch to warp. It will stop the abuse where players are still reinforcing their army while juggling immortals in the prism.
The problem is Z lategame is really strong, and P lategame is super hard when they get tempests (in PvT). So, if you nerf P lategame against T, you don't fix PvZ, and if you nerf P timing attacks against Z, you don't fix PvT lategame.
I suggest to reduce immortal movement speed. That would weaken the pushes with more than 2 immortals, so it would be easier for Z to prepare defenses.
Then, also give vikings a little extra damage against massive, or increase their attack range by 1.
Only downside is ZvP lategame would still be really hard. Maybe decrease MS of infestors when they're burrowed.
That should do it, honestly.
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I don't understand this whole talk about prisms being OP
I feel like prisms are being used as a scapegoat here.
I don't know how many people realize this, but the rise of these powerful and effective PvZ timings came after zerg early and mid game was nerfed. Transfuse was nerfed, creep was nerfed, hydra was nerfed. before, you rarely saw queens die in a harass...now i regularly see 1 maybe more queens dying. The creep nerf should speak for itself - it's a vital part of zerg defense and ability to react. On the flip side, protoss got a cheaper robo (gas is the bottleneck, so it's not really offset by more expensive immortals) and the protoss late game was nerfed into the ground, which probably encouraged protoss players into busting out these brutal variations of timings instead of banking on a hopeless late game against zerg.
i honestly dont know why zerg received those nerfs. I think instead of nerfing protoss and ruining PvT, zerg early-mid game should get a buff, since it's weak to terran as well. Maybe then a Zerg player can finally win a Code S in LotV
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On June 07 2019 07:07 BerserkSword wrote:
I don't understand this whole talk about prisms being OP
I feel like prisms are being used as a scapegoat here.
I don't know how many people realize this, but the rise of these powerful and effective PvZ timings came after zerg early and mid game was nerfed. Transfuse was nerfed, creep was nerfed, hydra was nerfed. before, you rarely saw queens die in a harass...now i regularly see 1 maybe more queens dying. The creep nerf should speak for itself - it's a vital part of zerg defense and ability to react. On the flip side, protoss got a cheaper robo (gas is the bottleneck, so it's not really offset by more expensive immortals) and the protoss late game was nerfed into the ground, which probably encouraged protoss players into busting out these brutal variations of timings instead of banking on a hopeless late game against zerg.
i honestly dont know why zerg received those nerfs. I think instead of nerfing protoss and ruining PvT, zerg early-mid game should get a buff, since it's weak to terran as well. Maybe then a Zerg player can finally win a Code S in LotV
It's not a scapegoat.
Creap was a nightmare to be cleared, it required nerf.
Transfuze was way too strong for T1 unit you don't need larvae for. The whole queen thingy is band aid anyway and should disappear.
Fine, revert hydra, but many games end before hydras are out so this isn't the question of PvZ anyway.
Edit> The nerfs were fine, now is the time to think about other nerfs and/or some buffs to zerg. Just leave the queen alone, don't make it multi-purpose all-in-one godlike hero unit of Zergs.
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On June 07 2019 07:19 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 07:07 BerserkSword wrote:
I don't understand this whole talk about prisms being OP
I feel like prisms are being used as a scapegoat here.
I don't know how many people realize this, but the rise of these powerful and effective PvZ timings came after zerg early and mid game was nerfed. Transfuse was nerfed, creep was nerfed, hydra was nerfed. before, you rarely saw queens die in a harass...now i regularly see 1 maybe more queens dying. The creep nerf should speak for itself - it's a vital part of zerg defense and ability to react. On the flip side, protoss got a cheaper robo (gas is the bottleneck, so it's not really offset by more expensive immortals) and the protoss late game was nerfed into the ground, which probably encouraged protoss players into busting out these brutal variations of timings instead of banking on a hopeless late game against zerg.
i honestly dont know why zerg received those nerfs. I think instead of nerfing protoss and ruining PvT, zerg early-mid game should get a buff, since it's weak to terran as well. Maybe then a Zerg player can finally win a Code S in LotV
It's not a scapegoat. Creap was a nightmare to be cleared, it required nerf. Transfuze was way too strong for T1 unit you don't need larvae for. The whole queen thingy is band aid anyway and should disappear. Fine, revert hydra, but many games end before hydras are out so this isn't the question of PvZ anyway. Edit> The nerfs were fine, now is the time to think about other nerfs and/or some buffs to zerg. Just leave the queen alone, don't make it multi-purpose all-in-one godlike hero unit of Zergs.
Well I strongly disagree. I don't know why youre against the zerg having strong early-mid game defense capabilities when it is the only race that does not have the luxury of walling off, building sim city, and harassing. Zerg is the only race that gets rocked so badly by timing attacks. Bases are wide open and there are so many vectors of enemy attack that have to be monitored and responded to, which is why dynamics like creep and queen exist. Zerg cannot just wall off and build a tank and forget about it.
The queen is Zerg's lifeline. Whether or not you think it should be in the game is pretty much a non factor at this point, as i doubt it will be removed and the whole race redesigned. The fact of the matter is that it IS supposed to be a unique and powerful unit that serves as an equalizer
The creep nerf was straight up BS imo.....absolutely no nerf was required. It fundamentally changed the dynamic by making the rate of recession greater than the rate of spread. This is a huge race mechanic change that creates a massive opportunity cost for terran and protoss players not doing timing attacks, as zerg can no longer replace creep at the same rate it's cleared.
These zerg nerfs answer a lot of questions. What tanks immortal shots and shoots prisms out of the sky? queens. What provides Zerg the ability to react faster and engage protoss armies more effectively? creep.
Meanwhile prisms are just recently being scapegoated despite the fact that they have been the same for over a year. I didnt hear much complaining about them before the queen and creep nerfs
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Bisutopia19384 Posts
On June 07 2019 04:59 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 02:11 BisuDagger wrote:On June 07 2019 01:57 Jimmon wrote:Too much Protoss hate, yet I still think it's still a balanced match up over-all though.. Even if we all agree that PvZ was balanced, I personally believe it is very un-enjoyable to watch especially in the Korean Pro Scene. The games are short and there is no back in forth in the game. One side always seems to just roll over the other or fail miserably in a push and just GG. And while 50 different ways to rush/cheese/proxy/allin to mass kill drones is fun to watch when a player produces a new version unseen before it all gets old very fast. Screw the balance talk, that matchup just simply isn't fun as a spectator this year. I don't think that many people agree it's balanced - but I definitely agree with the spectator aspect you are talking about - there aren't a whole lot of games that dont seem entirely decided by the 7th or 8th minute - makes it very dull to watch. Regarding the balance in PvZ - I think the main issue there is the fact that there are an insane amount of robo first / twilight first variants that have very different timings and very different responses required. In a vacuum I don't think any of these builds are impossible to hold for the Zerg player - but collectively it turns the game into a coin flip. For instance - the infamous Margery build can be held in a couple of ways - we've seen Reynor do it with ling bane and some other pro's do it with ling ravager. In both cases though it requires skipping Lair - and we now know there are robo first DT timings that can hit by 4:30 - and without a Lair they will almost always do critical damage. On top of this - there are delayed immo / prism pushes that look the same that require more drones and plus 1 to deal with. In the end what we are seeing now is a bunch of the top level Z pro's opening overlord speed every game - which in itself can make holding some of these builds very very difficult - and the fact that the Protoss player can set up for these and then opt out into a normal macro game when they see overlord speed and a zerg player holding drones puts the Zerg in a really tough spot. Conversely - we are seeing the stronger macro zergs like Serral / Lambo having a nice time once they get to late game - so I wouldn't say that just nerfing these pushes is necessarily the right thing to do - they may need to propose some compensation. I'm not even going to talk about PvT - because we've been through it 1000 times going on 2 years now since they broke the match-up - I don't know how they can fix it without breaking PvZ etc - so we'll just keep on watching Terrans come up with new 2 base all ins and win for a while - and then lose again once Toss figures out how to sniff em out and counter etc.
Spot on. Maybe there is a better way to improve scouting for Zergs so they don't get quite so mind gamed. I don't have a good solution though.
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On June 07 2019 08:05 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 04:59 DomeGetta wrote:On June 07 2019 02:11 BisuDagger wrote:On June 07 2019 01:57 Jimmon wrote:Too much Protoss hate, yet I still think it's still a balanced match up over-all though.. Even if we all agree that PvZ was balanced, I personally believe it is very un-enjoyable to watch especially in the Korean Pro Scene. The games are short and there is no back in forth in the game. One side always seems to just roll over the other or fail miserably in a push and just GG. And while 50 different ways to rush/cheese/proxy/allin to mass kill drones is fun to watch when a player produces a new version unseen before it all gets old very fast. Screw the balance talk, that matchup just simply isn't fun as a spectator this year. I don't think that many people agree it's balanced - but I definitely agree with the spectator aspect you are talking about - there aren't a whole lot of games that dont seem entirely decided by the 7th or 8th minute - makes it very dull to watch. Regarding the balance in PvZ - I think the main issue there is the fact that there are an insane amount of robo first / twilight first variants that have very different timings and very different responses required. In a vacuum I don't think any of these builds are impossible to hold for the Zerg player - but collectively it turns the game into a coin flip. For instance - the infamous Margery build can be held in a couple of ways - we've seen Reynor do it with ling bane and some other pro's do it with ling ravager. In both cases though it requires skipping Lair - and we now know there are robo first DT timings that can hit by 4:30 - and without a Lair they will almost always do critical damage. On top of this - there are delayed immo / prism pushes that look the same that require more drones and plus 1 to deal with. In the end what we are seeing now is a bunch of the top level Z pro's opening overlord speed every game - which in itself can make holding some of these builds very very difficult - and the fact that the Protoss player can set up for these and then opt out into a normal macro game when they see overlord speed and a zerg player holding drones puts the Zerg in a really tough spot. Conversely - we are seeing the stronger macro zergs like Serral / Lambo having a nice time once they get to late game - so I wouldn't say that just nerfing these pushes is necessarily the right thing to do - they may need to propose some compensation. I'm not even going to talk about PvT - because we've been through it 1000 times going on 2 years now since they broke the match-up - I don't know how they can fix it without breaking PvZ etc - so we'll just keep on watching Terrans come up with new 2 base all ins and win for a while - and then lose again once Toss figures out how to sniff em out and counter etc. Spot on. Maybe there is a better way to improve scouting for Zergs so they don't get quite so mind gamed. I don't have a good solution though.
instead of making it incredibly difficult for zerg players to properly react to specialized builds, make hydras a T1 unit but slighly cheaper and weaker. also revert the creep nerf
those are my general thoughts
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On June 07 2019 08:27 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 08:05 BisuDagger wrote:On June 07 2019 04:59 DomeGetta wrote:On June 07 2019 02:11 BisuDagger wrote:On June 07 2019 01:57 Jimmon wrote:Too much Protoss hate, yet I still think it's still a balanced match up over-all though.. Even if we all agree that PvZ was balanced, I personally believe it is very un-enjoyable to watch especially in the Korean Pro Scene. The games are short and there is no back in forth in the game. One side always seems to just roll over the other or fail miserably in a push and just GG. And while 50 different ways to rush/cheese/proxy/allin to mass kill drones is fun to watch when a player produces a new version unseen before it all gets old very fast. Screw the balance talk, that matchup just simply isn't fun as a spectator this year. I don't think that many people agree it's balanced - but I definitely agree with the spectator aspect you are talking about - there aren't a whole lot of games that dont seem entirely decided by the 7th or 8th minute - makes it very dull to watch. Regarding the balance in PvZ - I think the main issue there is the fact that there are an insane amount of robo first / twilight first variants that have very different timings and very different responses required. In a vacuum I don't think any of these builds are impossible to hold for the Zerg player - but collectively it turns the game into a coin flip. For instance - the infamous Margery build can be held in a couple of ways - we've seen Reynor do it with ling bane and some other pro's do it with ling ravager. In both cases though it requires skipping Lair - and we now know there are robo first DT timings that can hit by 4:30 - and without a Lair they will almost always do critical damage. On top of this - there are delayed immo / prism pushes that look the same that require more drones and plus 1 to deal with. In the end what we are seeing now is a bunch of the top level Z pro's opening overlord speed every game - which in itself can make holding some of these builds very very difficult - and the fact that the Protoss player can set up for these and then opt out into a normal macro game when they see overlord speed and a zerg player holding drones puts the Zerg in a really tough spot. Conversely - we are seeing the stronger macro zergs like Serral / Lambo having a nice time once they get to late game - so I wouldn't say that just nerfing these pushes is necessarily the right thing to do - they may need to propose some compensation. I'm not even going to talk about PvT - because we've been through it 1000 times going on 2 years now since they broke the match-up - I don't know how they can fix it without breaking PvZ etc - so we'll just keep on watching Terrans come up with new 2 base all ins and win for a while - and then lose again once Toss figures out how to sniff em out and counter etc. Spot on. Maybe there is a better way to improve scouting for Zergs so they don't get quite so mind gamed. I don't have a good solution though. instead of making it incredibly difficult for zerg players to properly react to specialized builds, make hydras a T1 unit but slighly cheaper and weaker. also revert the creep nerf those are my general thoughts
Yeah seems like a reasonable idea to help zvp would make prisms less op. Unsure of what cheeses might be created / ZvT impact overall worse hydras for z might be rough since they are in most compositions. Also creep unerf could be huge in ZvT which might offset worse hydras butt not sure would have to test thoroughly lol.
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On June 07 2019 08:04 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 07:19 deacon.frost wrote:On June 07 2019 07:07 BerserkSword wrote:
I don't understand this whole talk about prisms being OP
I feel like prisms are being used as a scapegoat here.
I don't know how many people realize this, but the rise of these powerful and effective PvZ timings came after zerg early and mid game was nerfed. Transfuse was nerfed, creep was nerfed, hydra was nerfed. before, you rarely saw queens die in a harass...now i regularly see 1 maybe more queens dying. The creep nerf should speak for itself - it's a vital part of zerg defense and ability to react. On the flip side, protoss got a cheaper robo (gas is the bottleneck, so it's not really offset by more expensive immortals) and the protoss late game was nerfed into the ground, which probably encouraged protoss players into busting out these brutal variations of timings instead of banking on a hopeless late game against zerg.
i honestly dont know why zerg received those nerfs. I think instead of nerfing protoss and ruining PvT, zerg early-mid game should get a buff, since it's weak to terran as well. Maybe then a Zerg player can finally win a Code S in LotV
It's not a scapegoat. Creap was a nightmare to be cleared, it required nerf. Transfuze was way too strong for T1 unit you don't need larvae for. The whole queen thingy is band aid anyway and should disappear. Fine, revert hydra, but many games end before hydras are out so this isn't the question of PvZ anyway. Edit> The nerfs were fine, now is the time to think about other nerfs and/or some buffs to zerg. Just leave the queen alone, don't make it multi-purpose all-in-one godlike hero unit of Zergs. Well I strongly disagree. I don't know why youre against the zerg having strong early-mid game defense capabilities when it is the only race that does not have the luxury of walling off, building sim city, and harassing. Zerg is the only race that gets rocked so badly by timing attacks. Bases are wide open and there are so many vectors of enemy attack that have to be monitored and responded to, which is why dynamics like creep and queen exist. Zerg cannot just wall off and build a tank and forget about it. The queen is Zerg's lifeline. Whether or not you think it should be in the game is pretty much a non factor at this point, as i doubt it will be removed and the whole race redesigned. The fact of the matter is that it IS supposed to be a unique and powerful unit that serves as an equalizer The creep nerf was straight up BS imo.....absolutely no nerf was required. It fundamentally changed the dynamic by making the rate of recession greater than the rate of spread. This is a huge race mechanic change that creates a massive opportunity cost for terran and protoss players not doing timing attacks, as zerg can no longer replace creep at the same rate it's cleared. These zerg nerfs answer a lot of questions. What tanks immortal shots and shoots prisms out of the sky? queens. What provides Zerg the ability to react faster and engage protoss armies more effectively? creep. Meanwhile prisms are just recently being scapegoated despite the fact that they have been the same for over a year. I didnt hear much complaining about them before the queen and creep nerfs
This shit happens everytime a race is strong, people start pointing out individual things as broken(prism) when it has existed for 3 years and it was allright. But when you nerf the shit out Terran and Zerg (Cyclone remove and exchanged for another unit, Hydra nerf, queen nerf, creep nerf) what was once fine when you take the context into account, becomes broken bullshit really fast. Some players chooose not to worker scout to get that edge in economy and possibly snowball it into an advantage, these things make difference in pro play. Imagine what difference it makes when 2 of your most important units get nerfed.
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SC2 doesn’t really make too much use of unit acceleration, but I wonder if there would be any way to reduce the acceleration of overlords but raise their top speed so that a sacrifice overlord gets further into the base and sees more but you don’t gain the ability to have overlords moving around on complex paths and looking for everything.
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Bisutopia19384 Posts
On June 07 2019 23:16 General_Winter wrote:
SC2 doesn’t really make too much use of unit acceleration, but I wonder if there would be any way to reduce the acceleration of overlords but raise their top speed so that a sacrifice overlord gets further into the base and sees more but you don’t gain the ability to have overlords moving around on complex paths and looking for everything.
I was thinking about overseers as tier 1 tech. That way we don't touch basic overlords and it's still an investment to get the added scouting early. Obvious cons would be overseer rushing to stop production. Maybe overseers with evo chamber would work.
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On June 08 2019 00:58 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 23:16 General_Winter wrote:
SC2 doesn’t really make too much use of unit acceleration, but I wonder if there would be any way to reduce the acceleration of overlords but raise their top speed so that a sacrifice overlord gets further into the base and sees more but you don’t gain the ability to have overlords moving around on complex paths and looking for everything. I was thinking about overseers as tier 1 tech. That way we don't touch basic overlords and it's still an investment to get the added scouting early. Obvious cons would be overseer rushing to stop production. Maybe overseers with evo chamber would work.
Thats an interesting idea as well..they could even make the contaminate ability still require lair tech but that would let u spend half the gas of ovy speed and still be able to scout whatsup..+1 to this idea.
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On June 06 2019 09:42 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Finally, we're going to get a non-Terran champion.
Hoping for Classic vs. Dark in the finals.
Or Hurricane to win it all.
Either of those is great with me :D.
Feeling optimistic!
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On June 07 2019 08:04 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 07:19 deacon.frost wrote:On June 07 2019 07:07 BerserkSword wrote:
I don't understand this whole talk about prisms being OP
I feel like prisms are being used as a scapegoat here.
I don't know how many people realize this, but the rise of these powerful and effective PvZ timings came after zerg early and mid game was nerfed. Transfuse was nerfed, creep was nerfed, hydra was nerfed. before, you rarely saw queens die in a harass...now i regularly see 1 maybe more queens dying. The creep nerf should speak for itself - it's a vital part of zerg defense and ability to react. On the flip side, protoss got a cheaper robo (gas is the bottleneck, so it's not really offset by more expensive immortals) and the protoss late game was nerfed into the ground, which probably encouraged protoss players into busting out these brutal variations of timings instead of banking on a hopeless late game against zerg.
i honestly dont know why zerg received those nerfs. I think instead of nerfing protoss and ruining PvT, zerg early-mid game should get a buff, since it's weak to terran as well. Maybe then a Zerg player can finally win a Code S in LotV
It's not a scapegoat. Creap was a nightmare to be cleared, it required nerf. Transfuze was way too strong for T1 unit you don't need larvae for. The whole queen thingy is band aid anyway and should disappear. Fine, revert hydra, but many games end before hydras are out so this isn't the question of PvZ anyway. Edit> The nerfs were fine, now is the time to think about other nerfs and/or some buffs to zerg. Just leave the queen alone, don't make it multi-purpose all-in-one godlike hero unit of Zergs. Well I strongly disagree. I don't know why youre against the zerg having strong early-mid game defense capabilities when it is the only race that does not have the luxury of walling off, building sim city, and harassing. Zerg is the only race that gets rocked so badly by timing attacks. Bases are wide open and there are so many vectors of enemy attack that have to be monitored and responded to, which is why dynamics like creep and queen exist. Zerg cannot just wall off and build a tank and forget about it. The queen is Zerg's lifeline. Whether or not you think it should be in the game is pretty much a non factor at this point, as i doubt it will be removed and the whole race redesigned. The fact of the matter is that it IS supposed to be a unique and powerful unit that serves as an equalizer The creep nerf was straight up BS imo.....absolutely no nerf was required. It fundamentally changed the dynamic by making the rate of recession greater than the rate of spread. This is a huge race mechanic change that creates a massive opportunity cost for terran and protoss players not doing timing attacks, as zerg can no longer replace creep at the same rate it's cleared. These zerg nerfs answer a lot of questions. What tanks immortal shots and shoots prisms out of the sky? queens. What provides Zerg the ability to react faster and engage protoss armies more effectively? creep. Meanwhile prisms are just recently being scapegoated despite the fact that they have been the same for over a year. I didnt hear much complaining about them before the queen and creep nerfs
Did you read what I posted? I am not against it. I am against making queens even stronger. Queen is a band aid and as such should be used less while introducing another solution. Be it a new unit, buff to a unit, new upgrade...
I want to lower the importance of queen to the lowest possible level. Currently queen is a multipurpose early game unit and you have to have it for macro, defense, potentional offense(!!!), movement, vision.
Even the MSC which was laughed by many wasn't this important. Queen is for me the worst design flaw of the current SC2 which is the reason I want to nerf it into oblivion
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On June 09 2019 05:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2019 08:04 BerserkSword wrote:On June 07 2019 07:19 deacon.frost wrote:On June 07 2019 07:07 BerserkSword wrote:
I don't understand this whole talk about prisms being OP
I feel like prisms are being used as a scapegoat here.
I don't know how many people realize this, but the rise of these powerful and effective PvZ timings came after zerg early and mid game was nerfed. Transfuse was nerfed, creep was nerfed, hydra was nerfed. before, you rarely saw queens die in a harass...now i regularly see 1 maybe more queens dying. The creep nerf should speak for itself - it's a vital part of zerg defense and ability to react. On the flip side, protoss got a cheaper robo (gas is the bottleneck, so it's not really offset by more expensive immortals) and the protoss late game was nerfed into the ground, which probably encouraged protoss players into busting out these brutal variations of timings instead of banking on a hopeless late game against zerg.
i honestly dont know why zerg received those nerfs. I think instead of nerfing protoss and ruining PvT, zerg early-mid game should get a buff, since it's weak to terran as well. Maybe then a Zerg player can finally win a Code S in LotV
It's not a scapegoat. Creap was a nightmare to be cleared, it required nerf. Transfuze was way too strong for T1 unit you don't need larvae for. The whole queen thingy is band aid anyway and should disappear. Fine, revert hydra, but many games end before hydras are out so this isn't the question of PvZ anyway. Edit> The nerfs were fine, now is the time to think about other nerfs and/or some buffs to zerg. Just leave the queen alone, don't make it multi-purpose all-in-one godlike hero unit of Zergs. Well I strongly disagree. I don't know why youre against the zerg having strong early-mid game defense capabilities when it is the only race that does not have the luxury of walling off, building sim city, and harassing. Zerg is the only race that gets rocked so badly by timing attacks. Bases are wide open and there are so many vectors of enemy attack that have to be monitored and responded to, which is why dynamics like creep and queen exist. Zerg cannot just wall off and build a tank and forget about it. The queen is Zerg's lifeline. Whether or not you think it should be in the game is pretty much a non factor at this point, as i doubt it will be removed and the whole race redesigned. The fact of the matter is that it IS supposed to be a unique and powerful unit that serves as an equalizer The creep nerf was straight up BS imo.....absolutely no nerf was required. It fundamentally changed the dynamic by making the rate of recession greater than the rate of spread. This is a huge race mechanic change that creates a massive opportunity cost for terran and protoss players not doing timing attacks, as zerg can no longer replace creep at the same rate it's cleared. These zerg nerfs answer a lot of questions. What tanks immortal shots and shoots prisms out of the sky? queens. What provides Zerg the ability to react faster and engage protoss armies more effectively? creep. Meanwhile prisms are just recently being scapegoated despite the fact that they have been the same for over a year. I didnt hear much complaining about them before the queen and creep nerfs Did you read what I posted? I am not against it. I am against making queens even stronger. Queen is a band aid and as such should be used less while introducing another solution. Be it a new unit, buff to a unit, new upgrade... I want to lower the importance of queen to the lowest possible level. Currently queen is a multipurpose early game unit and you have to have it for macro, defense, potentional offense(!!!), movement, vision. Even the MSC which was laughed by many wasn't this important. Queen is for me the worst design flaw of the current SC2 which is the reason I want to nerf it into oblivion
yes - i read what you posted.
I know you are against making queens stronger compared to what they are now, and that you dont like queens as part of zerg design. I am saying that queens need to be stronger (ie, transfuse nerf reverted) because the zerg were designed to rely so heavily on queens in LotV...that's just how it is and that's how blizzard wants it to be.
I think keeping queens as they are would be okay if BOTH the creep nerf would be reverted AND hydra moved to T1 would be implemented (that's just my theorycraft). the chances of hydra going to T1 are very low compared to tinkering with transfuse. And I'd be utterly shocked if blizzard gave zerg a new unit....i'd bet the farm it wont happen.
Your idea of nerfing queens into oblivion means fundamentally changing the zerg racial design, which probably is never going to happen at this point. Blizzard has been clear about how they want LotV to be, and they wont drastically change anything 4 years into the final iteration of SC2.
whether or not you or I like the design of LotV ( i think HotS was better designed than LotV), the fact of the matter is that Blizzard is the one that pushes the game in a certain direction, design wise. And blizzard decided to make the Queen the anchor of the Zerg, whether we like it or not. All we are left with is a situation in which nerfs to the zerg lifelines (queen, creep) are really hurting Zerg players' chances in GSL premier tournaments. LotV really just screwed zerg over with the new economy and larvae mechanics, and now it's exacerbated after the creep/queen nerf.
just a friendly reminder: zerg has won ZERO code S in LotV, and only one Super Tournametn
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On June 09 2019 16:24 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 05:47 deacon.frost wrote:On June 07 2019 08:04 BerserkSword wrote:On June 07 2019 07:19 deacon.frost wrote:On June 07 2019 07:07 BerserkSword wrote:
I don't understand this whole talk about prisms being OP
I feel like prisms are being used as a scapegoat here.
I don't know how many people realize this, but the rise of these powerful and effective PvZ timings came after zerg early and mid game was nerfed. Transfuse was nerfed, creep was nerfed, hydra was nerfed. before, you rarely saw queens die in a harass...now i regularly see 1 maybe more queens dying. The creep nerf should speak for itself - it's a vital part of zerg defense and ability to react. On the flip side, protoss got a cheaper robo (gas is the bottleneck, so it's not really offset by more expensive immortals) and the protoss late game was nerfed into the ground, which probably encouraged protoss players into busting out these brutal variations of timings instead of banking on a hopeless late game against zerg.
i honestly dont know why zerg received those nerfs. I think instead of nerfing protoss and ruining PvT, zerg early-mid game should get a buff, since it's weak to terran as well. Maybe then a Zerg player can finally win a Code S in LotV
It's not a scapegoat. Creap was a nightmare to be cleared, it required nerf. Transfuze was way too strong for T1 unit you don't need larvae for. The whole queen thingy is band aid anyway and should disappear. Fine, revert hydra, but many games end before hydras are out so this isn't the question of PvZ anyway. Edit> The nerfs were fine, now is the time to think about other nerfs and/or some buffs to zerg. Just leave the queen alone, don't make it multi-purpose all-in-one godlike hero unit of Zergs. Well I strongly disagree. I don't know why youre against the zerg having strong early-mid game defense capabilities when it is the only race that does not have the luxury of walling off, building sim city, and harassing. Zerg is the only race that gets rocked so badly by timing attacks. Bases are wide open and there are so many vectors of enemy attack that have to be monitored and responded to, which is why dynamics like creep and queen exist. Zerg cannot just wall off and build a tank and forget about it. The queen is Zerg's lifeline. Whether or not you think it should be in the game is pretty much a non factor at this point, as i doubt it will be removed and the whole race redesigned. The fact of the matter is that it IS supposed to be a unique and powerful unit that serves as an equalizer The creep nerf was straight up BS imo.....absolutely no nerf was required. It fundamentally changed the dynamic by making the rate of recession greater than the rate of spread. This is a huge race mechanic change that creates a massive opportunity cost for terran and protoss players not doing timing attacks, as zerg can no longer replace creep at the same rate it's cleared. These zerg nerfs answer a lot of questions. What tanks immortal shots and shoots prisms out of the sky? queens. What provides Zerg the ability to react faster and engage protoss armies more effectively? creep. Meanwhile prisms are just recently being scapegoated despite the fact that they have been the same for over a year. I didnt hear much complaining about them before the queen and creep nerfs Did you read what I posted? I am not against it. I am against making queens even stronger. Queen is a band aid and as such should be used less while introducing another solution. Be it a new unit, buff to a unit, new upgrade... I want to lower the importance of queen to the lowest possible level. Currently queen is a multipurpose early game unit and you have to have it for macro, defense, potentional offense(!!!), movement, vision. Even the MSC which was laughed by many wasn't this important. Queen is for me the worst design flaw of the current SC2 which is the reason I want to nerf it into oblivion yes - i read what you posted. I know you are against making queens stronger compared to what they are now, and that you dont like queens as part of zerg design. I am saying that queens need to be stronger (ie, transfuse nerf reverted) because the zerg were designed to rely so heavily on queens in LotV...that's just how it is and that's how blizzard wants it to be. I think keeping queens as they are would be okay if BOTH the creep nerf would be reverted AND hydra moved to T1 would be implemented (that's just my theorycraft). the chances of hydra going to T1 are very low compared to tinkering with transfuse. And I'd be utterly shocked if blizzard gave zerg a new unit....i'd bet the farm it wont happen. Your idea of nerfing queens into oblivion means fundamentally changing the zerg racial design, which probably is never going to happen at this point. Blizzard has been clear about how they want LotV to be, and they wont drastically change anything 4 years into the final iteration of SC2. whether or not you or I like the design of LotV ( i think HotS was better designed than LotV), the fact of the matter is that Blizzard is the one that pushes the game in a certain direction, design wise. And blizzard decided to make the Queen the anchor of the Zerg, whether we like it or not. All we are left with is a situation in which nerfs to the zerg lifelines (queen, creep) are really hurting Zerg players' chances in GSL premier tournaments. LotV really just screwed zerg over with the new economy and larvae mechanics, and now it's exacerbated after the creep/queen nerf. just a friendly reminder: zerg has won ZERO code S in LotV, and only one Super Tournametn
Zerg is fine in LOTV:
Dark and Solar both won SSL, sure, Zerg is very weak(er) in Korea but at international events they are winning a lot.
Rogue won IEM's and Blizzcon while soO won IEM WC. Zerg has won Blizzcon 2 years in a row, Serral just annihilating the foreign scene.
Last year Protoss won 2 tournaments- Classic and Stat, (I think that's an all time low for a race to win any tournaments) while Terran won 4 tournaments (albeit only Maru who won WESG and 3 GSL's), everything else was won by Zerg with Rogue winning IEM WC, Scarlett winning IEM Pyeonchang and Serral winning every tournament he's at after June.
There is no way of changing things in SKorea for Zerg without also making it even harder for Serral to be toppled in WCS, so I mean it's not easy to balance these things.
Even this year, Zerg has 3 wins across the board, with soO winning the big international even at IEM and Serral and Reynor winning in WCS, meanwhile Protoss and Terran both have 2 wins (Classic and Neeb/Maru and INnoVation).
Even if P wins this GSL they are still tied with Zerg in tournament wins.
Also, in the foreign scene, the 3 best Zergs, Scarlett, Reynor and Serral are (almost) untouchable unless their opponent is Neeb tbh (Because he has like, the best PvZ in the world, which still might not be enough). The 3 Zerg's will only lose to Neeb or each other.
so I mean... Zerg is fine
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