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United States1851 Posts
These are my personal feelings and not a reflection of anyone else on the Teamliquid writing staff or the people who maintain the website, moderate the forums or work on liquipedia.
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StarCraft II has been dying for a very long time.
StarCraft II was dying in late Wings of Liberty when sponsors’ interest waned and the money started to dry up. StarCraft II was dying in Heart of the Swarm when independent tournament series dropped StarCraft II from their roster.
StarCraft II was dying in 2016 when Life squandered the momentum of 2015 by tainting StarCraft II. Major sponsors no wanted a part of the game. Proleague 2016 was a stillborn baby and at the end of the year it died for good. StarCraft II was dying in 2016 because mediocre players no longer had the support of teams and the scene shrunk.
StarCraft II was dying in 2017 because teams could not longer offer players liveable salaries. High profile players went from earning tens of thousands to hundreds a month. StarCraft II was dying in 2018 when Hot6ix finally got off the sinking ship that was GSL. StarCraft II was dying in 2018 because Spo couldn’t raise the funds to run SSL without Blizzard support. At this point Blizzard is the only thing keeping StarCraft II alive, internationally or Korean.
When you think back, StarCraft II has been on hospice since 2014 when people began to realize that the KeSPA B-Teamers were never going to be able to replace the stars. There wasn’t some big influx of new players. All the people who suggest Blizzard should fund some grassroots effort to get new talent in the scene are being unrealistic. There is no young talent. Why would any kid who was talented at video games pick up StarCraft II and start a dead end career when there was more money in League or Overwatch.
But what really did StarCraft II in was eventuality. Military service was always on the horizon. Eventually all the players we’ve come to adore would have to pick up and get on with their lives. A lot of people thought it was a sad thing. I always felt otherwise. Yes, StarCraft II players had given their hearts and bodies to the games. Yes, they’d mortgaged their future for something fleeting. But now they were finally able to move on. Find a partner, have children, whatever, it doesn’t matter. We always knew this was coming. And when the big wave or retirements happened StarCraft II would finally expire.
I’m not going to talk about balance or the way Blizzard handled region lock, tournaments or anything else. If it were just about numbers they probably would have shut down professional StarCraft II along time ago. They care about the game. Sentiment is the only reason we still have tournaments with cash prizes to watch.
I was never bothered by the fact that StarCraft II was dying. Nothing lasts forever. Everything dies. I can’t blame people who aggressively claimed StarCraft II was doing fine, or that it was flourishing. But I do feel like they were hiding the truth from themselves. They wanted StarCraft II to be something it wasn’t. They needed it be something it wasn’t because of something inside of themselves. Some even went so far as to ostracized and vilify those who denied the claims of StarCraft II’s well being. What caused all this? I couldn’t tell you and I’m not going to guess. People do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons.
I just never understood why they needed StarCraft II to be something more. I loved StarCraft for what it was. StarCraft II gave us amazing games, intense rivalries, lasting moments and players whose stories were worth telling and retelling over and over. StarCraft II was a great game even if it was dying. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.
We should celebrate StarCraft. We should remember the things that made us love it. The connection we had with a particular unit, the attachment we made to a team. The vigor with which we cheered for our favorite players, and the emotion we felt when people achieved their dreams. Whether it was becoming a champion or just playing, players got to experience something special for a few years. That’s what StarCraft II was. It was dying for a long time, but it was special and I know many people loved it.
I didn’t edit this or make any grammatical corrections so some things might not make perfect sense or sound as clean as they could. I wanted to put my feelings to paper, not write some carefully constructed article my editors would pick apart and overhaul. Take whatever you want from this musing. I’ve loved StarCraft II and it will be with me for a very long time. I hope some of you have felt the same attachment to it that I have. Thank you for reading.
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Seven years is quite a long time for a death animation; some games that could potentially become Esports die out entirely in few months.
Blizzard is the only one providing funds at the moment, but would indipendent tournament have saved Starcraft if the game was deemed a failure and Blizzard's support was abandoned when the game was at its apex in 2011/2012?
If we speak about general interest and the rise of new players, Korean scene has been truly dying; western scene resurrected in LoTV and western audience is responsible for the increase of viewers in the last years.
Considering how atrocious the last decade has been for the RTS genre, Starcraft 2 enjoyed both amazing success and a long lifespan.
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https://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sy=c&sx=a
Which Data did you use?
Yes, Sc2 did not speak to the same audience BW spoke too. A lot of people that wanted sc2 to be BW have left. As long as there is a huge playerbase (highest peak in 6 years (which is as far as that Data dates back); just 120 days ago) a new competitive scene should be able to form, no? This feels more like the old guard dying out, but I only spent 3 seconds typing something into google, since I couldn't figure out how you could confidently make these statements.
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your statement, "everything dies" is the most telling one that you wrote here. if an esport dying is a similar fate for all esports, except league of legends now, what is the true significance of highlighting it then?
is it just sentiment, or do people genuinely enjoying the game hold it up higher and also hope for more to come?
there's nothing wrong or unrealistic about that, is there?
as you don't understand why people defend against "game is dead" (we've all known and partially treated it this way for years), i don't understand the insistence that it is dying.
the statement itself doesn't mean anything other than the person not enjoying the game anymore (and usually finding escape in this way), or it is to acknowledge the fact that everything comes to an end. normally this doesn't accomplish anything at all.
it is like saying overpopulation or extreme crime messes up a city, but from an outside point of view.
if you didn't live or work there, you wouldn't know that there are millions of people that try their hardest to continue living there. you don't describe that as sentiment or whatever, because that is simply too easy and it is too plain and obvious.
it is also a little ignorant to do so in that example.
there are just a lot of conditions, and it's life. it doesn't change the fact that it's dying, but neither does highlighting it.
i'm sorry, it's just a "what does that impart?", or "why is that important?" sort of feeling for me. nothing positive is usually gained from this mentality, other than personal closure.
obviously what you say here is in the opposite direction. you are saying that we should appreciate it for how far it got and what it could give us in its lifetime. it's also obvious enough that you believe it is in its twilight years.
i think a takeaway, aside from any personal lessons learned from the game,
is that some games are better played than watched (looking at fortnite and mobile games), and then you have games like starcraft that are better watched than played.
the future of esports depends on popularity first and foremost, and then having a genuinely good spectator game.
i think RTS will always have a place because it is perfect for commentary and assessment.
team games have a wider scope because more players are involved. it doesn't make it any less demanding than a solo game. it actually means the ceiling is extremely intricate and high because of involvement and the number of factors at hand. but still, there is only one point of view you can follow at a time.
the pacing was always important for an esport and RTS hits this sweet spot perfectly IMO.
i just hope next time the bubble doesn't occur. the industry as a whole is realistic with their investment, and tournament organizers are able to make money from beginning to end without scaling back on cost and experience.
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As long as queue times are as short as they are right now, I think the game is very much alive. The "sc2 is dying" crowd doesn't know what an actual dead game looks like. Now if you were to say the professional sc2 scene is dying, that's something I can see happening in the upcoming few years. But right now everything seems pretty alive.
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I counter this with the theory that SC2 will outlive most popular games on the market right now with few exceptions (mainly CS and LoL)
I think Starcraft will still be kicking when Fortnite is long forgotten. My reasoning beeing that Starcraft is and will be the most unique game and experience there is. Nothing comes even close.
Maybe we don't have the prize pool of "The International" or the fame of Fortnite. But all people still following Starcraft will continue to do so. Most of the fanbase of a Fortnite or a Apex Legends will jump to the next best thing as soon as something new and exciting comes up. Just as it happened with PUBG and multiple times before that.
Edit: 2000 posts, whoop :D
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Canada8989 Posts
I don't get why we should turn back into "starcraft is dead let's celebrate it and pass to something else"
Is the esports scene with firework, spinning camera and overserious commentary last for long? Most likely not.
It dosen't mean we should just abandonned something we loved, it's not a reason to stop talking about it with friend, continue that endless grind, keep whatching the best of the best whoever they are.
If it was the esport scene that you like, then that's fine, I'm sure a lot of people are the same, but it's not the same as loving the game in itself.
Starcraft isn't a person, it can't die on it's own, it's only dependable on the people using it.
If there's no more tournament, why not make a lan or an online cup? Starcraft 2 will die when everyone has abandonned it, as long as peoplr care about it, animate it, organize tournament ect... We will be able to enjoy it not in the form of nostalgia of the flashy light, but as an actual game we keep playing.
Edit: Congratz on the 2000!
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Bisutopia19231 Posts
During the SC:BW forced transition with KESPA I had a very brief moment of anger and despair thinking it was over and I was just going to add another rage quit blog to the TL forums. I thought really hard about what Starcraft meant to me and what value it added to my life. Then I thought about what value I could add back into Starcraft.
This last thought helped me sink my feet back into the ground and double down on my involvement in the community and games. To be honest, the Sonic years of Starcraft are some of my best and most memorable years. I got close with a ton of community members and we experienced Starcraft in a more intimate way. The players were more amateurish and lesser known, but the games were equally fun and the new personalities such as Sonic/Brittany/Terror really made it an amazing time to be a Brood War fan. And every fan that was left, was a true, blindly in love fan of the game. So arguably at its worst I was enjoying Brood War the most.
I bring this up because I am a big SC2 fan too. I was doing Kespa Proleague banners and LR threads before SC2 had it's own legendary LR champions. I attended MLGs and Red Bull tournaments too. There's not a doubt in my mind that no matter what level of "death" you are going to say SC2 has reached, that something equally great will grow out of it. There are too many of us that are willing to rally together and keep the torch alive if Blizzard ceases to carry the flame.
My advice to Starcraft 2 lovers, as someone who has much experience with this, is to not engage in the "SC2 is dead or dying discussion". There's no point to it and no point in getting worked up about those who say it is. You can't convince them to think otherwise, but engaging with them can certainly take you to a dark and angry place. Instead, periodically ask how you can get involved even if it means just being a casual fan and turning on a stream to help players and casters get their views. SC2 has a long future that fans should be looking forward to.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 04 2019 22:33 Harris1st wrote:
I counter this with the theory that SC2 will outlive most popular games on the market right now with few exceptions (mainly CS and LoL)
I think Starcraft will still be kicking when Fortnite is long forgotten. My reasoning beeing that Starcraft is and will be the most unique game and experience there is. Nothing comes even close.
Maybe we don't have the prize pool of "The International" or the fame of Fortnite. But all people still following Starcraft will continue to do so. Most of the fanbase of a Fortnite or a Apex Legends will jump to the next best thing as soon as something new and exciting comes up. Just as it happened with PUBG and multiple times before that.
Edit: 2000 posts, whoop :D
it won't die in the meaning there won't be any streams or tournaments. But without Blizzard there's no GSL, Blizzcon and WCS. We would probably get the HSC and maybe some backstage at IEM. The community would be still around but don't fool around, the community won't keep the game where it is now on the quality we're getting.
On June 04 2019 22:58 Nakajin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't get why we should turn back into "starcraft is dead let's celebrate it and pass to something else"
Is the esports scene with firework, spinning camera and overserious commentary last for long? Most likely not.
It dosen't mean we should just abandonned something we loved, it's not a reason to stop talking about it with friend, continue that endless grind, keep whatching the best of the best whoever they are.
If it was the esport scene that you like, then that's fine, I'm sure a lot of people are the same, but it's not the same as loving the game in itself. Starcraft isn't a person, it can't die on it's own, it's only dependable on the people using it. If there's no more tournament, why not make a lan or an online cup? Starcraft 2 will die when everyone has abandonned it, as long as peoplr care about it, animate it, organize tournament ect... We will be able to enjoy it not in the form of nostalgia of the flashy light, but as an actual game we keep playing. + Show Spoiler +Edit: Congratz on the 2000!
It doesn't have the LAN, if Blizzard stops servers we need a replacement. That's one thing I don't hate EU for - they are asking providers of such services to release a "repair" manual to get the thing going on. Because once they turn off the service our copies will be useless for the multi player because the only server code is on the Blizzard side.
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A blog written by a writer is still a blog come on guys
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I would not say it has been dying for a long time. I would say there were serious issues that were not addressed around 2013 that led to a steep decline in the game and it is now on the verge of dying. Maybe that is semantics, but oh well. What has concerned and still does concern me the most is all of the people (personalities/casters/etc) around 2012-2014 who kept telling us day in and day out that there was nothing wrong with starcraft and that we were just being negative and that we should just leave if we feel that way. Now they pretend it is our fault and that they were messiahs who knew what was going to happen. I won't name names but there is a reason I don't admin tournaments anymore and why I watch less than I used to (I miss the 2012 days of a tournament of some kind nearly every day). Starcraft two will make it to the next decade in all likelihood, but right now it is being picked at by vultures trying to get what money they can out of the carcass until it rots away.
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Admittedly, the Korean scene's days are numbered but last year, the viewership went up significantly after SC2 became free to play so if Blizzard keeps supporting the scene (which is uncertain sadly), I think Korean scene has maybe 2 years left but the foreign scene has potential to have many more years. Whether or not SC2 lasts for many years, I agree that it had a good run.
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On June 04 2019 21:43 naughtDE wrote:https://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sy=c&sx=aWhich Data did you use? Yes, Sc2 did not speak to the same audience BW spoke too. A lot of people that wanted sc2 to be BW have left. As long as there is a huge playerbase (highest peak in 6 years (which is as far as that Data dates back); just 120 days ago) a new competitive scene should be able to form, no? This feels more like the old guard dying out, but I only spent 3 seconds typing something into google, since I couldn't figure out how you could confidently make these statements.
I agree that 2018 was actually a good year for the scene, probably thanks to SC2 being free to play and Serral. Problem is the Koreans are almost irreplaceable. There might be a new group of foreign players coming up but it is unlikely they will fill the void left by Koreans going to the military. I can see the scene lasting with just the foreign scene and I think it would still be very entertaining but if Korean scene fades to the point where GSL is gone, I don't know about anyone else but that would greatly reduce my interest in the pro scene.
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On June 04 2019 20:38 Mizenhauer wrote:
Sentiment is the only reason we still have tournaments with cash prizes to watch.
believe it or not, but Starcraft is still very important for their brand. Since several years the ROI is not about money. Providing a certain amount of money to keep sc2 around is still a business decision.
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On June 05 2019 06:22 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2019 21:43 naughtDE wrote:https://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sy=c&sx=aWhich Data did you use? Yes, Sc2 did not speak to the same audience BW spoke too. A lot of people that wanted sc2 to be BW have left. As long as there is a huge playerbase (highest peak in 6 years (which is as far as that Data dates back); just 120 days ago) a new competitive scene should be able to form, no? This feels more like the old guard dying out, but I only spent 3 seconds typing something into google, since I couldn't figure out how you could confidently make these statements. I agree that 2018 was actually a good year for the scene, probably thanks to SC2 being free to play and Serral. Problem is the Koreans are almost irreplaceable. There might be a new group of foreign players coming up but it is unlikely they will fill the void left by Koreans going to the military. I can see the scene lasting with just the foreign scene and I think it would still be very entertaining but if Korean scene fades to the point where GSL is gone, I don't know about anyone else but that would greatly reduce my interest in the pro scene.
Undeniably, the Korean scene adds immense value to the Pro scene and it's demise will be a loss.
Maybe that is what I misunderstood about Mizenhauer's post, that the dead game meme refers to the Pro scene, since player base numbers are up and up and I enjoy the new faces that keep popping up in the western scene.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 04 2019 23:59 Elentos wrote:
A blog written by a writer is still a blog come on guys
SC2General section isn't the Blog section, so we can be more cereal 
On June 05 2019 06:09 Anc13nt wrote:
Admittedly, the Korean scene's days are numbered but last year, the viewership went up significantly after SC2 became free to play so if Blizzard keeps supporting the scene (which is uncertain sadly), I think Korean scene has maybe 2 years left but the foreign scene has potential to have many more years. Whether or not SC2 lasts for many years, I agree that it had a good run.
Uhm, no? Let's say that the GSL and Korean scene collapses in this year and by the Blizzcon there's no JAGW and most Korean players are in the military.
So, what happens to the WCS? First of all - there won't be any threat for Serral. Let's be real, Serral's major threat are Koreans, not foreigners. Foreigners can win from time to time, but the major enemies are in Korea. This will make the WCS(foreigner scene) uninteresting(there's nothing more boring than knowing how it ends).
Also, without Koreans you lose many "elitist" who are watching WCS too just because they're interested in the game and it's in a good time slot.
Without the Korean scene foreign scene won't survive for long. Will it kill SC2 scene? No. But it will be really bad for foreign scene ;-)
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On June 05 2019 18:07 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2019 23:59 Elentos wrote:
A blog written by a writer is still a blog come on guys SC2General section isn't the Blog section, so we can be more cereal Show nested quote +On June 05 2019 06:09 Anc13nt wrote:
Admittedly, the Korean scene's days are numbered but last year, the viewership went up significantly after SC2 became free to play so if Blizzard keeps supporting the scene (which is uncertain sadly), I think Korean scene has maybe 2 years left but the foreign scene has potential to have many more years. Whether or not SC2 lasts for many years, I agree that it had a good run. Uhm, no? Let's say that the GSL and Korean scene collapses in this year and by the Blizzcon there's no JAGW and most Korean players are in the military. So, what happens to the WCS? First of all - there won't be any threat for Serral. Let's be real, Serral's major threat are Koreans, not foreigners. Foreigners can win from time to time, but the major enemies are in Korea. This will make the WCS(foreigner scene) uninteresting(there's nothing more boring than knowing how it ends). Also, without Koreans you lose many "elitist" who are watching WCS too just because they're interested in the game and it's in a good time slot. Without the Korean scene foreign scene won't survive for long. Will it kill SC2 scene? No. But it will be really bad for foreign scene ;-)
I guess I have to remind you Serral lost to Reynor which you loudly celebrated.
And wtf are you saying, elitists (it's pretty telling how you designate yourself) would never commit the sacrilege of watching unholy foreigner play. Eu scene don't need them at all. I dare say these departures would do good as it would lower the gatekeeping of the overall community.
As a heretic, I really enjoy watching the small tournament of my country like the underdogs (and before the different lans). Rly, there is nothing more satisfactory than following the regular progress of a player like Stephano, Dayshi, Denver, Ptitdrogo, Clem, and then seeing them performing on bigger stage. Sc2 is not necesserily only about big names you know.
That said, as I am not really into this artificial koreans vs foreigners war, seeing the difficulties of the korean scene makes me sad.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 05 2019 20:56 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2019 18:07 deacon.frost wrote:On June 04 2019 23:59 Elentos wrote:
A blog written by a writer is still a blog come on guys SC2General section isn't the Blog section, so we can be more cereal On June 05 2019 06:09 Anc13nt wrote:
Admittedly, the Korean scene's days are numbered but last year, the viewership went up significantly after SC2 became free to play so if Blizzard keeps supporting the scene (which is uncertain sadly), I think Korean scene has maybe 2 years left but the foreign scene has potential to have many more years. Whether or not SC2 lasts for many years, I agree that it had a good run. Uhm, no? Let's say that the GSL and Korean scene collapses in this year and by the Blizzcon there's no JAGW and most Korean players are in the military. So, what happens to the WCS? First of all - there won't be any threat for Serral. Let's be real, Serral's major threat are Koreans, not foreigners. Foreigners can win from time to time, but the major enemies are in Korea. This will make the WCS(foreigner scene) uninteresting(there's nothing more boring than knowing how it ends). Also, without Koreans you lose many "elitist" who are watching WCS too just because they're interested in the game and it's in a good time slot. Without the Korean scene foreign scene won't survive for long. Will it kill SC2 scene? No. But it will be really bad for foreign scene ;-) I guess I have to remind you Serral lost to Reynor which you loudly celebrated. And wtf are you saying, elitists (it's pretty telling how you designate yourself) would never commit the sacrilege of watching unholy foreigner play. Eu scene don't need them at all. I dare say these departures would do good as it would lower the gatekeeping of the overall community. As a heretic, I really enjoy watching the small tournament of my country like the underdogs (and before the different lans). Rly, there is nothing more satisfactory than following the regular progress of a player like Stephano, Dayshi, Denver, Ptitdrogo, Clem, and then seeing them performing on bigger stage. Sc2 is not necesserily only about big names you know. That said, as I am not really into this artificial koreans vs foreigners war, seeing the difficulties of the korean scene makes me sad.
I guess I have to remind you I wrote Foreigners can win from time to time . I acknowledged this. but the biggest chances are in the Korea. So don't say otherwise and don't twist my words into something I didn't write.
Some people watch mostly Koreans and then WCS. But their primal target is the GSL. WIth GSL collabsing I can see them going away from SC2 which isn't good when you lose the Blizzard support and you need EVERY. Possible. Viewer.
Also I am not the one who started saying about the Korean SC2 fans being elitists, that's why the quotation marks.
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EPT
