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On April 15 2019 05:12 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +It's pretty easy, my reasonable claim is that Maru's performance is not remotely dominant enough for him to be called bonjwa.
Liquipedia's definition of the term is "a bonjwa has very high winning percentage and successive tournament wins"; 40% is good but definitely not "very high", while the tournament wins have to be chronologically consecutive(like Flash's in 2010). Maru's Code S victories are indeed back to back relatively to the competition but they are months away one from each other with and he proceeded to lose all the other tournaments that he played in meanwhile, WESG being the exception.
Life's run is way more fitting to bonjwa's criterias and yet he wasn't crowned as such, it would be silly to call Maru a bonjwa now. His winrate since the beginning of 2018 is 69.11 in maps and 75.69% in matches In 2018 only it was 68.62% in maps and 76.47% in matches. Winrates aren't just how many tournaments you win, but your maps and matches. Flash's winrates at the peak of his career, 74.1% in 2009, 75% in 2010, 74.1% in 2011 Flash did win more tournaments more consistently at his peak, however even among the other 'bonjwas' he was clearly in a league of his own
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories.
No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
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On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote:
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories.
No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
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On April 15 2019 07:19 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote:
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories.
No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again.
The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019.
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On April 15 2019 08:06 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2019 07:19 serendipitous wrote:On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote:
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories.
No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again. The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019.
Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in premeir tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player.
Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it
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On April 15 2019 08:19 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2019 08:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 07:19 serendipitous wrote:On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote:
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories.
No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again. The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019. Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player. Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it
No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic.
You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess?
Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier).
Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right?
Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans.
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On April 15 2019 08:56 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2019 08:19 DomeGetta wrote:On April 15 2019 08:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 07:19 serendipitous wrote:On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote:
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories.
No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again. The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019. Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player. Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic. You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans.
LOL. Look what you just wrote bro. You are like "how dare u say hes 2/8 hes 2/7!!! He must be considered banjo!! Hey if i go all the way back in time hes 2 / infinity. Also increasingly implies more.. you dont need to state it twice..just trying to help you out so you sound less ridiculous.
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On April 15 2019 20:47 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2019 08:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 08:19 DomeGetta wrote:On April 15 2019 08:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 07:19 serendipitous wrote:On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote:
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories.
No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again. The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019. Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player. Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic. You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans. LOL. Look what you just wrote bro. You are like "how dare u say hes 2/8 hes 2/7!!! He must be considered banjo!! Hey if i go all the way back in time hes 2 / infinity. Also increasingly implies more.. you dont need to state it twice..just trying to help you out so you sound less ridiculous.
Hm, quite convinced you could say "increasingly more"; that doesn't change the fact I am discussing with a child, at the moment. If you want to look at numbers be sure to pick the right ones, it's pointless otherwise.
The main point of all that was Maru not being dominant enough to be called bonjwa and it went back to the "lulz Serral sucks WCS<Olimoleague brah" argument which I vastly discussed on this forum(I am becoming boring on doing that, just enjoy his TL player of the year 2018 award).
You didn't write actually write anything that can disprove my point. Maru is the most successful player in preparation tournaments in history, the most accomplished in premier korean tournaments and was the best korean player and best Terran in 2018; he's a couple of Premier tournaments from being GOAT(assuming Inno stops winning), but he definitely is not bonjwa.
After looking closely at Maru's very best streak in 2018, however, I have to reconsider my statement: saying he was "far from" or "not even close to" being a bonjwa is exaggerating; he wasn't far either but both Serral's successes in 2018 and Life's arguably better streak in the past prevent the title to be given to Maru.
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19533 Posts
On April 15 2019 21:52 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2019 20:47 DomeGetta wrote:On April 15 2019 08:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 08:19 DomeGetta wrote:On April 15 2019 08:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 07:19 serendipitous wrote:On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote:
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories.
No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again. The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019. Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player. Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic. You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans. LOL. Look what you just wrote bro. You are like "how dare u say hes 2/8 hes 2/7!!! He must be considered banjo!! Hey if i go all the way back in time hes 2 / infinity. Also increasingly implies more.. you dont need to state it twice..just trying to help you out so you sound less ridiculous. he's a couple of Premier tournaments from being GOAT(assuming Inno stops winning)
I don't want to get deeply into this discussion, but what people in general simply never care about for some reason is the holistic success of a player, it's not only 1st places which are important here, it's not only individual ones either.
A one time GSL winner imo wouldn't and shouldn't be seen as more successful than say a 4 time semi finalist. The same concept has to be applied when you wanna evaluate the career of any player.
Maru didn't only win GSL 4 times and has 6 starleagues in total, he also has a lot of other high place finishes in these tournaments while also being one of the very best proleague players in sc2 (maybe the best).
He also has some good finishes at weekenders, though comparatively to his starleague success it is worse, sure.
Now at this moment i am too lazy to compile all the data for the usual goat contenders, but imo one would have to look at the whole career and basically every result (where low place finishes might be negligible, but at least ro8 and better should be considered) to really make a strong case for anyone.
The biggest problem with the bonjwa question is that it is a bw term and their tournament scene was completely different.
Only starleagues and proleague really mattered, the sc2 scene changed that (though noone can really agree on what matters how much, etc :D )
I get that people want sc2 to have one as well though, it's a nice sounding title 
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 15 2019 21:52 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2019 20:47 DomeGetta wrote:On April 15 2019 08:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 08:19 DomeGetta wrote:On April 15 2019 08:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 07:19 serendipitous wrote:On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote:
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories.
No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again. The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019. Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player. Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic. You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans. LOL. Look what you just wrote bro. You are like "how dare u say hes 2/8 hes 2/7!!! He must be considered banjo!! Hey if i go all the way back in time hes 2 / infinity. Also increasingly implies more.. you dont need to state it twice..just trying to help you out so you sound less ridiculous. Hm, quite convinced you could say "increasingly more"; that doesn't change the fact I am discussing with a child, at the moment. If you want to look at numbers be sure to pick the right ones, it's pointless otherwise. The main point of all that was Maru not being dominant enough to be called bonjwa and it went back to the "lulz Serral sucks WCS<Olimoleague brah" argument which I vastly discussed on this forum(I am becoming boring on doing that, just enjoy his TL player of the year 2018 award). You didn't write actually write anything that can disprove my point. Maru is the most successful player in preparation tournaments in history, the most accomplished in premier korean tournaments and was the best korean player and best Terran in 2018; he's a couple of Premier tournaments from being GOAT(assuming Inno stops winning), but he definitely is not bonjwa. After looking closely at Maru's very best streak in 2018, however, I have to reconsider my statement: saying he was "far from" or "not even close to" being a bonjwa is exaggerating; he wasn't far either but both Serral's successes in 2018 and Life's arguably better streak in the past prevent the title to be given to Maru.
Maru is the youngest royal in SC2
Maru is the only double royal roader in SC2
Maru won all 3 starleagues
Maru is the best PL player in SC2 history (if you check the year statistics of PL he was either 1st or 2nd while the other place was different)
Maru met the soO record of 4 consecutive Code S finals
Maru won Code S 4 times in a row(previous record was 2 times in a row)
19 times in Code S(top is Gumi with 20)
Somebody did the math about RO4 numbers. I would reword it as Maru also quite consistently gets to RO8 or better but I'm too lazy.
The PL and 3 starleages by itself would be enough to get Bonjwa status in BW IMO
edit> or goat, w/e
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On April 15 2019 23:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2019 21:52 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 20:47 DomeGetta wrote:On April 15 2019 08:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 08:19 DomeGetta wrote:On April 15 2019 08:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 15 2019 07:19 serendipitous wrote:On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote:
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories.
No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again. The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019. Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player. Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic. You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans. LOL. Look what you just wrote bro. You are like "how dare u say hes 2/8 hes 2/7!!! He must be considered banjo!! Hey if i go all the way back in time hes 2 / infinity. Also increasingly implies more.. you dont need to state it twice..just trying to help you out so you sound less ridiculous. he's a couple of Premier tournaments from being GOAT(assuming Inno stops winning) I don't want to get deeply into this discussion, but what people in general simply never care about for some reason is the holistic success of a player, it's not only 1st places which are important here, it's not only individual ones either. A one time GSL winner imo wouldn't and shouldn't be seen as more successful than say a 4 time semi finalist. The same concept has to be applied when you wanna evaluate the career of any player. Maru didn't only win GSL 4 times and has 6 starleagues in total, he also has a lot of other high place finishes in these tournaments while also being one of the very best proleague players in sc2 (maybe the best). He also has some good finishes at weekenders, though comparatively to his starleague success it is worse, sure. Now at this moment i am too lazy to compile all the data for the usual goat contenders, but imo one would have to look at the whole career and basically every result (where low place finishes might be negligible, but at least ro8 and better should be considered) to really make a strong case for anyone. The biggest problem with the bonjwa question is that it is a bw term and their tournament scene was completely different. Only starleagues and proleague really mattered, the sc2 scene changed that (though noone can really agree on what matters how much, etc :D ) I get that people want sc2 to have one as well though, it's a nice sounding title
I perfectly agree with you, not only victories should define someone's career.
However, it's up to how much you value certain tournaments when compared to certain others, if you want to add results obtained in Majors et cetera? If you take into considerations 4th places at best and add Major results to Premiers you could have unexpected results such as MC being GOAT.
While Proleague was certainly a relevant part of Sc2's history, it definitely is not as integral the way it is in Brood War.
Both Inno and Maru were astonishing Proleague players with Inno having the most titles won and the most allkills(tied with Stats) and Maru the highest win percentage among top 10 PL players and a positive Ace record; none of them is the best player in Proleague history, that seems Stats to me since he has more victories than both, the highest allkill amount, a win ratio better than Inno's and a better ace record than Maru's.
Neglecting GSTL is extremely arbitrary, if you want to include team league results you should add GSTL's as well.
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19533 Posts
One definitely would need to think about relative worth of the tournaments a lot, people wouldn't agree on this ever, at least not 100%, but i think one could make a reasonable case.
Definitely agree with GSTL being part of it as well, in general i would consider all offline tournaments.
I only brought this up because i only ever see people talk about the number of tournament wins, which imo isn't nuanced enough to really be worth talking about.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Just where my "best PL player" is coming from, i just briefly checked the yearly statistics and maru is either 2nd of first while the players around are changing, so I just pronounced him. There are certainly others who were good(Inno) it's just that Maru was up there all the time consistently.
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serral's dominance in wcs is meaningless due to region lock. blame blizzard for coddling foreigners and killing korean sc2. maybe if there were no region lock it'd mean something. dump any top korean into wcs, like polt in NA, and he's gonna be winning everything. thats why jinro, huk, naniwa, and stephano are celebrated. cause they fought koreans and made them bleed.
EDIT:
forgot to add neeb and scarlett to the list. they were winning or placing high pre region lock
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On April 16 2019 03:56 fishjie wrote:
serral's dominance in wcs is meaningless due to region lock. blame blizzard for coddling foreigners and killing korean sc2. maybe if there were no region lock it'd mean something. dump any top korean into wcs, like polt in NA, and he's gonna be winning everything. thats why jinro, huk, naniwa, and stephano are celebrated. cause they fought koreans and made them bleed.
bad blizzard killed proleague and SSL :[
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I think you can't even argue that Maru is the best ever (i dont even think i'm biased, but i might be). 4 Code S in a row, meanwhile INno's fanboys are saying that 3 in 5 years is awesome ...
And it was on unfavorable patches for Maru.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 16 2019 04:40 DieuCure wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think you can't even argue that Maru is the best ever (i dont even think i'm biased, but i might be). 4 Code S in a row, meanwhile INno's fanboys are saying that 3 in 5 years is awesome ... And it was on unfavorable patches for Maru.
Of course it was, that;s when hes' the best
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EPT
