Stats via Aligulac.com, match-up stats from 2018-11-20
In January, the GSL announced the start of its 2019 season with word 'RE:Generation.' Serral's BlizzCon victory meant that for the first time in the history of StarCraft II, GSL Code S could not proudly proclaim itself as the home to the best player in the world. With that word, and the image of Serral silencing all his rivals, the GSL had charged its players with a sacred task: restore Korean StarCraft to its rightful glory.
The rallying cry was answered. Over the last three months, Korea's elite StarCraft II progamers have traversed the globe, dashing foreign hopes, claiming lucrative spoils, and reasserting their might. Though some of Korea's heroes were felled upon returning to their homeland, there's no questioning that they achieved their goal: The GSL rules the StarCraft II world once more.
Now, it's time to find out who rules the GSL.
Classic: The Last Chance
by Orlok
To grow old means to experience change, both voluntary and involuntary. Age alters our perceptions of events that we previously took for granted, demanding us to grow up and accept that the times are changing. For the 27-year-old Classic, the second oldest competitor in Code S, the specter of time has loomed over the road he has taken to what could be the last Code S finals of his career.
Classic is perhaps the most unexpected player to have made it this far. Even after strong showings in the group stages of the tournament, there was plenty of reason to predict his playoff elimination as he went up against powerhouses Rogue and Dark. Classic's PvZ was statistically mediocre, and it had been the cause of his demise in several 2018 events. His age didn’t make his prospects seem any brighter. StarCraft II might not devour the elderly quite like its predecessor Brood War—where careers peaked in the late teens and retirement came in the early twenties—it's still mechanically proficient youths such as Maru and Serral who establish dynasties.
To much surprise, Classic has advanced this far with a combination of sheer determination and strategic brilliance. Despite playing against two of the best the Zerg race had to offer, intricate series planning and preparation carried Classic to victory. He trashed the idea that the 'better' player react and plays a macro game, instead deploying an arsenal of Cannon-rushes, proxy buildings, Adept all-ins, and everyone’s favorite: the Soul Train. He pulled out all the stops, switching builds literally every game to edge his way forward. This style didn’t beget a pretty series, with Classic going the full distance in both the quarter and semifinals, but it got the job done.
While Classic's resourcefulness has been admirable, it also belies the increasing desperation of a man who's running out of time. For fans, military service is just an inconvenience, something that takes away our favorite players from the game. For the individuals actually giving their country nearly two years of their lives, it is much more than that. The individual is abruptly thrown into the ultimate collectivist society, one full of draconian rules. One must begin at the lowest rung of a social ladder, regardless of their accomplishments in personal life—a painful blow to self-esteem and pride. Korean progamers might have a relatively easier time adjusting to disciplined group life, given their years spent in team houses while training for Proleague. On the other hand, they have more ego to swallow, as top progamers enjoy a kind fame and fortune that's hugely abnormal for people their age. Even outside the money, there's a sense of accomplishment that you are a winner, one of the best in your field. And suddenly, they have to throw that away to start again from the bottom.
However, the most daunting aspect of service is not the service itself. Human relations, spiteful superiors, and physical drudgery are all obnoxious obstacles, but the passage of time helps smooth them over. The true difficulty lies at the end of it, when you're discharged with the unforgiving knowledge that the time for youthful dreaming is done. The rest of your life is waiting for you, intimidating in its vastness. And while all men must complete the service, you'll never lose the sense that you've been left behind. At the end of my service, I saw friends and acquaintances making huge steps in their careers with internships at major tech companies or the United Nations, or going on to prestigious grad schools. While they were making an impact in their lives, I had been shoveling dirt hills. I felt so far behind, and I realized that procrastinating was a luxury I couldn’t indulge myself in anymore. The time for fun was over.
At least 'normal' people have some sense of direction in how to resume their lives, whether it's finishing school or finding another job in their field. But professional gamers can’t come back expecting things to be the same, or have any expectations at all. Those who do try to return to the professional scene find it nearly impossible to replicate their past success—players like Kal and Fantasy ended up wallowing in mediocrity despite their passion, MMA moved on to coaching after giving it his all for a year, and even a player as talented as TaeJa is struggling in his return. Depending on timing, there's the possibility your game's pro scene won't even exist in two years. With military service being a forced retirement of sorts, it represents the end of the only dream some of these players have ever known: to be a progamer.
For Maru, this chance at another GSL title is routine. For Classic, it’s everything. He knows better than anyone that such an opportunity may never again come to pass, and he cherishes this opportunity much more than Maru ever could. That's why Classic's run has felt so stained with the desperation and urgency to leave one final mark in his craft. That's why Classic has prepared so diligently, why he's willing to utilize every dark art, and why he had to hold back tears after winning his duel against Dark: there might not be a next time. While rational thinking dictates that Maru should once again stand head and shoulder above another puny challenger, I can’t help but think maybe this time, it should be someone else hoisting the trophy.
Maru: Living History
by Mizenhauer
StarCraft II has changed so much over the past six months that it’s easy to forget that just last September, Maru had cemented his status as best player in the world by winning his third consecutive Code S title. His victory over TY was, without a doubt, the most impactful of his three triumphs, with the outcome of the match teetering on a razor's edge from start to finish. In the weeks leading to WCS Global Finals, the excitement in the community swelled to a fever pitch. No player had dominated the Korean scene so absolutely and for so long, and expectations were sky high for him to deliver Korea its seventh and greatest Global Championship by humbling Serral at BlizzCon.
Maru’s Code S success in 2018 elevated him to a tier of his own, but it was that very greatness which made the year’s conclusion so deflating. With his scintillating final bout with TY fresh in mind, fans were more than willing to forgive Maru's poor showing at the second Super Tournament, the condition being that he succeed in a tournament that really mattered, the WCS Global Finals.
And, at first it seemed as if he would oblige. He won the tournament’s opening series against Lambo, and needed less than 13 minutes of game time to dispatch Neeb. Maru was nothing short of incendiary, and hopes of a Maru versus Serral final were at an all time high. But just six days later, Maru coughed up the upset of the year in the worst way possible.
Maru’s Korean dominance had been built on a number of factors, but his popularization of the proxy meta in TvP was one of the most vital. Its duplicity and versatility gave Maru the advantage during a time in which other Terrans were struggling to keep their head above water in the matchup.
As expected, he brought the same style to bear against teammate sOs. What we didn’t expect was for Maru to fall flat on his face. The crafty sOs once again had a trick up his sleeve. In game one, he went against 'standard' play and teched up on one base. It was a gambit that would have failed if Maru had gone for a quick expansion, but it this case it allowed him to easily rebuff Maru’s early attacks. sOs appeared to give Maru a chance to get back in the series with an ill-advised cannon rush on Lost and Found, but Maru bungled the game. On the final map, Maru got supply blocked after forgetting to build his second supply depot, an amateurish error that allowed a probing Adept to kill four free SCVs. Crippled so early on, Maru was forced into desperate 1/1/1 push that sOs easily quelled.
It was perhaps the year's most astonishing result, one which threw Maru’s status as world’s best into question. Maru’s situation worsened when Serral lifted the Gosu Trophy later that weekend, effectively stealing all the attention away from a player who had been in greatest-of-all-time debates two months prior.
*****
RE:Generation was the tagline for the first season of GSL 2019, but it was unclear if Maru got the message. He qualified for IEM Katowice on his first try, though a 2-0 loss to INnoVation meant he had to fight back through the lower bracket to earn his spot. He made the cut in Code S as well, despite dropping a series to Dear. Seemingly unable to escape a qualifier unscathed, Maru seemed fortunate to have been gifted an automatic invitation to WESG 2018.
But at least the first live event went well, with Maru posting a solid result in his Code S RO32 group. RagnaroK and herO weren’t the most daunting of foes, but nonetheless he dealt with them handily and built some momentum before traveling to Katowice for IEM.
Yet, as had been the story the year before, Maru failed to deliver the same sublime displays overseas that he had in Korea. Despite entering the tournament as one of the favorites, Maru found himself in shambles after dropping the first three matches of Group B to Trap, Neeb and Leenock. Trap had been a historically tough opponent, but Maru had no business losing to the latter two considering he’d won seven matches in a row against Leenock (since June 2013), and had won and four of five lifetime matches against Neeb. There was just no way rationalize what was already the biggest shock of 2019.
Maru’s fortunes seemed poised for a reversal on March 8th, with a hand-sculpted GSL group providing him an ideal opportunity to bully inferior competition. But instead of sweeping through the group as anticipated, Maru was defeated by Bunny in the winner’s match. Maru slipped through into the quarterfinals in the decider match, but the fact that he was stretched to another game three against GSL RO32 punching bag Impact was cause for more worry than relief.
But hope shines eternal, and WESG gave the invincible Maru of 2018 another chance to reveal himself. But instead of shucking his slump and earning a long awaited showdown against Serral, Maru was dismantled by INnoVation in the semifinals. He scraped out a 3-2 victory against Scarlett in the third place match despite the Candian’s persistent Nydus shenanigans, but for the third time in five months Maru’s domestic dominance was starkly contrasted by his ineptitude away from his homeland.
Two weeks removed from his poor showing at WESG, it seemed as if the final curtain would fall on the age of Maru. His Code S quarterfinal opponent, Dear, had been excellence incarnate in PvT, logging an incredible twenty game win streak since late January. Maru had his incomparable Code S record on his side, but what solace could last year’s accomplishments really offer against such a towering opponent?
However, instead of putting in a toothless performance as he had at prior competitions, Maru reminded us of the quality which made him the champion of every Code S in 2018. Where Maru had drawn from an unending well of proxy strategies to unsettle his Protoss foes a year ago, he displayed a wider breadth of play against Dear. A pair of tank pushes and an audacious twenty widow mine drop evoked the best of Maru from 2018 and even ages past. Even though Dear took a map with a masterful late game performance on King’s Cove, there was no doubt as to who had been the superior player. It was the exact type of performance Maru’s fans had been waiting for.
With Dear out of the way, Maru faced off against his teammate Trap in the semifinals. The match was never hyped up as a clash of equals, but it proved to be even more lopsided than anyone expected. Maru outplayed Trap in every aspect of the game. He struck early and often, using harassment and sharp timings to keep Trap out of a comfortable rhythm. It was a vintage Maru performance, more reminiscent of the run and gun brand of PvT he showed in Heart of the Swarm than the guile and trickery he’d relied upon in 2018.
Maru's run through the playoffs reminded us that his ability to craft strategies aimed at a specific opponent is only exceeded by the peerless manner in which he executes them. It allows him to control the tone and direction of a preparation-based tournament at a level that no player has ever been able to achieve.
But as decisive and ruthless as Maru’s triumphs were, his march to the finals is even more noteworthy for its historical significance. With his victory, Maru booked a spot in his fourth consecutive Code S final, extending a run of form many thought would never be duplicated when soO originally achieved the feat in 2013-14. As much as we’ve been distracted by Maru’s failings overseas and in weekend tournaments, the Jin Air Terran continues to tread on hallowed ground in the confines of Code S. Or, perhaps, it's everyone else who dares enter the sanctified halls of the GSL, made blessed by Maru's presence.
As Maru prepares to take part in his fourth Code S final, and the 29th Code S final of all time, we know it will be one unlike any other. Hindsight has allowed us to see where all the valiant contenders from across different eras stand, and learn who the true legends of Code S are. But when Maru plays in the FreecUP studio, we're blessed with a rare form of clairvoyance: we know that this is history, and it's being written right now with every victory.
I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
On April 13 2019 15:45 StarcraftSquall wrote: If Classic should win what happens to his BlizzCon spot?
he's insinuated that if he confirms blizzcon early and starts working on whatever bureaucracy he needs to get through, he might have a better chance at getting permission (no guarantees)
Such great articles guys. Some lines gave me chills!
''For Maru, this chance at another GSL title is routine. For Classic, it’s everything. He knows better than anyone that such an opportunity may never again come to pass, and he cherishes this opportunity much more than Maru ever could.''
''when Maru plays in the FreecUP studio, we're blessed with a rare form of clairvoyance: we know that this is history, and it's being written right now with every victory.
I like Classic and i was really moved when he cried after beating Dark, but Maru has silently been putting up so much in 2013,14,15, and 16, all while everyone is drooling over Life,Taeja, Byun or Inno. I think Maru has earned the B word already and he's got nothing to prove here, he will just assure us why he's the one.
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
I REALLY want Classic to win, what a storyline that would be! Of course if Maru wins it's the first 4 in a row Code S title, but he's just breaking his own records at this point.
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
people don't have to "be clear" that things are their opinions, it's common sense. "that's just your opinion" is what people say when they're annoyed someone disagrees with them, lol.
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
And yeah like I said - it is my opinion - but you would be hard pressed to find a genuine fan honestly try to say that WCS tournaments and GSL are remotely in the same class - even though they are all categorized as "Premier".
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
If you want to extend the period I am considering feel free to, Maru didn't win anything in the previous two years at least; those thirtheen months I mentioned are the ones enclosing his Premier victories.
We are not even discussing who was the best player in 2018(according to TL writers themselves and the majority of TLers it was Serral); including the tournaments played in 2019 is integral to your call of Maru being bonjwa.
Discounting Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World really is cherrypicking. It might seem that I hate Maru, but in reality it's just that his run, albeit unprecedent in Code S, is not really suitable with the definition of bonjwa(while Life's definitely is).
On April 13 2019 13:03 fronkschnonk wrote: I don't dare to predict anything. Maru is a black box now, capable of brutally destroying Classic but also possibly being weirdly dismantled as if he had been the emperor with actually no clothes all the time.
As much as I would love seeing Classic getting his pre-retirement victory I can't help to hope for Maru winning it the 4th time in a row - just to shut down all the doubter - including me. And wouldn't it be much more satisfying dramatically, if Classic had to fight the entire year just to finally lift the trophy of GSL season 3?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
And yeah like I said - it is my opinion - but you would be hard pressed to find a genuine fan honestly try to say that WCS tournaments and GSL are remotely in the same class - even though they are all categorized as "Premier".
I mean if they don't take 2-25k tournament a 1-100k tournament seriously then I feel more then fine criticising them because if it. It's their job, if they want to be the best they better care about their job and practice, it's not like the SC2 calender was pack full of non-stop tournaments like in 2012-13 either, you have plenty of time to rest even in Korea. I never understood how this was use as a defense for some player, not practicing for an event seems way worst to me then underperforming...
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
And yeah like I said - it is my opinion - but you would be hard pressed to find a genuine fan honestly try to say that WCS tournaments and GSL are remotely in the same class - even though they are all categorized as "Premier".
I mean if they don't take 2-25k tournament a 1-100k tournament seriously then I feel more then fine criticising them because if it. It's their job, if they want to be the best they better care about their job and practice, it's not like the SC2 calender was pack full of non-stop tournaments like in 2012-13 either, you have plenty of time to rest even in Korea. I never understood how this was use as a defense for some player, not practicing for an event seems way worst to me then underperforming...
2k18 Maru underperformed only at GSL ST1(RO8 vs Classic IIRC) & ST2(RO8 vs sOs) and at Blizzcon(RO8 vs sOs)(considering it was a team kill that's debatable). And by underperformed we're talking about Maru placing at RO8 or better when underperforming. From the top players. GSL vs The world was him taking RO4, IEM RO4
The he won 3 top tournaments with the top competition and WESG.
So out of these "9 premiers" he won 4, ended at RO4 stage twice(once to a teamkill) and at RO8 three times, twice thanks to a team kill ...
He underperformed with the RO8 end... WTF am I reading again?
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
And yeah like I said - it is my opinion - but you would be hard pressed to find a genuine fan honestly try to say that WCS tournaments and GSL are remotely in the same class - even though they are all categorized as "Premier".
I mean if they don't take 2-25k tournament a 1-100k tournament seriously then I feel more then fine criticising them because if it. It's their job, if they want to be the best they better care about their job and practice, it's not like the SC2 calender was pack full of non-stop tournaments like in 2012-13 either, you have plenty of time to rest even in Korea. I never understood how this was use as a defense for some player, not practicing for an event seems way worst to me then underperforming...
I mean he said himself at the start of both super tournaments and gsl vs the world that he used them as a break and didn't practice for them. He earned well over $400K last year it's not like he needs to win a $10K weekender, especially if he thinks taking a break will give him a better shot at Code S.
@DomeGetta I'm a really big Maru fanboy. And I'm quite sure that the majority is wrong about thinking Serral would be the best player of 2018 because of inflating the importance of Blizzcon and being hyped because of a foreigner performing that great and also counting WCS victories in account too much. So obviously Maru is the best of 2018 for me and I think he has a claim in the GOAT discussion considering his incredible consistency and unmatched starleague success. But Bonjwa? Xain0n is right in this case: Bonjwa means utter dominance without interruption. That's not the case with Maru. One would have to shrink the time frame to 6 months where he won 4 tournaments out of 6 (WESG + 3xGSL and losing vs Classic in Super Tournament and vs Stats in GSL vs the World in between). You can go ahead and say that GSL is harder than other competition but then it gets hard to justify how a bonjwa could be beaten in those other allegedly easier tournaments. If those 6 tournaments were the only premier ones over a course of a year or so, it could be another story but that's also not the case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
And yeah like I said - it is my opinion - but you would be hard pressed to find a genuine fan honestly try to say that WCS tournaments and GSL are remotely in the same class - even though they are all categorized as "Premier".
I mean if they don't take 2-25k tournament a 1-100k tournament seriously then I feel more then fine criticising them because if it. It's their job, if they want to be the best they better care about their job and practice, it's not like the SC2 calender was pack full of non-stop tournaments like in 2012-13 either, you have plenty of time to rest even in Korea. I never understood how this was use as a defense for some player, not practicing for an event seems way worst to me then underperforming...
I mean he said himself at the start of both super tournaments and gsl vs the world that he used them as a break and didn't practice for them. He earned well over $400K last year it's not like he needs to win a $10K weekender, especially if he thinks taking a break will give him a better shot at Code S.
Well does what he want but I'm still gonna criticize him for it, it's not like Maru calendar was overbook. He has what 15 GSL game day a year? and then like 4 weeks of tournament (WESG-IEM-Blizzcon) and let's say another week of tournament for whatever is left (qualifier, that teamleague they did), that like 7 week of tournament being generous, meaning he could spend 2 week preeping for every single tournament he still has 6 full months left, you can't tell me he could find time to practice for ST and GSLvsTW in there.
If it make him happy he can take whatever break he want, he bloody earn it, but it's still a choice against greatness at the end of the day.
On April 14 2019 05:09 fronkschnonk wrote: @DomeGetta I'm a really big Maru fanboy. And I'm quite sure that the majority is wrong about thinking Serral would be the best player of 2018 because of inflating the importance of Blizzcon and being hyped because of a foreigner performing that great and also counting WCS victories in account too much. So obviously Maru is the best of 2018 for me and I think he has a claim in the GOAT discussion considering his incredible consistency and unmatched starleague success. But Bonjwa? Xain0n is right in this case: Bonjwa means utter dominance without interruption. That's not the case with Maru. One would have to shrink the time frame to 6 months where he won 4 tournaments out of 6 (WESG + 3xGSL and losing vs Classic in Super Tournament and vs Stats in GSL vs the World in between). You can go ahead and say that GSL is harder than other competition but then it gets hard to justify how a bonjwa could be beaten in those other allegedly easier tournaments. If those 6 tournaments were the only premier ones over a course of a year or so, it could be another story but that's also not the case.
I agree. I think Serral was the best player in the world in fall of 2018 but in terms of achievements, his run was barely worse than Maru's imo, In fairness, it was almost impossible for him to have a better run since he didn't participate in GSL. I honestly believe that, If he did participate in GSL, he probably would have more achievements than Maru in 2018. Even though Maru won 3 GSLs, he always looked very mortal (except for Season 2). That said, I don't think what Serral did was more impressive than Rogue winning IEM, then GSL ST, then Blizzcon and then IEM WC (and honestly, if he had the chance, I think would have won like 3 out 4 WCS Circuit tournaments if Serral wasn't there).
On the question of bonjwa, Maru in 2018 is like Jaedong in 2009 to early 2010 (they both won like half the tournaments in this time period). There's ok argument that both are bonjwa but not one that is convincing enough for most people, especially since Serral did nearly as well as Maru in 2018.
Classic's a cool bloke. Last time I was at the GSL studios--during play breaks he would always have a group of 6-7 girls sitting around him outside the main elevator, chatting him up. What a boss.
My heart's on Maru. I want him to win a 4th.
I still think if TY didn't have that alt-tab incident, it might have been a TY vs Classic finals.
If anyone still doubts Maru, after OSL, GSL, SSL and Proleague... I don't know what to say. He has been the most consistent Terran in Korea for 5 years, those people would not stop doubting even if he did 6 in a row. At this point in time what more could you expect? Even the best weekend player would die to have Maru's trophy case.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
If you want to extend the period I am considering feel free to, Maru didn't win anything in the previous two years at least; those thirtheen months I mentioned are the ones enclosing his Premier victories.
We are not even discussing who was the best player in 2018(according to TL writers themselves and the majority of TLers it was Serral); including the tournaments played in 2019 is integral to your call of Maru being bonjwa.
Discounting Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World really is cherrypicking. It might seem that I hate Maru, but in reality it's just that his run, albeit unprecedent in Code S, is not really suitable with the definition of bonjwa(while Life's definitely is).
LOL. Tastosis in the first 10 minutes of the broadcast clowned everything you've been whining on here. Like I said apparently six times.. you are cherrypicking . 2018 4 out of 9 if you count ST and GSLvWorld which plenty of people dont..if u dont 4 out of 6. And now 4 code S in a row lol. Keep crying not even close though when the literal standard setters in the industry dont agree with you.
I don't think anybody can realistically doubt Maru. However, he would be bonjwa in a world where Code S is the only Premier tournament; he is not even close at the moment and his fourth consecutive title wouldn't help in that regard! The title is about domination and while he rules supreme in Code S he has relatively poor results in weekenders.
Classic may hope to delay his enlistment only if he wins now, I'm not sure he would even be able to play Season 2's finals.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
If you want to extend the period I am considering feel free to, Maru didn't win anything in the previous two years at least; those thirtheen months I mentioned are the ones enclosing his Premier victories.
We are not even discussing who was the best player in 2018(according to TL writers themselves and the majority of TLers it was Serral); including the tournaments played in 2019 is integral to your call of Maru being bonjwa.
Discounting Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World really is cherrypicking. It might seem that I hate Maru, but in reality it's just that his run, albeit unprecedent in Code S, is not really suitable with the definition of bonjwa(while Life's definitely is).
LOL. Tastosis in the first 10 minutes of the broadcast clowned everything you've been whining on here. Like I said apparently six times.. you are cherrypicking . 2018 4 out of 9 if you count ST and GSLvWorld which plenty of people dont..if u dont 4 out of 6. And now 4 code S in a row lol. Keep crying not even close though when the literal standard setters in the industry dont agree with you.
Artosis is known to call everyone a bonjwa(Rogue?).
"Cherrypicking" is selecting only statistics favourable to your claim, I am including every single Premier tournament Maru played in since 2018 so your accusation is totally out of place.
Maru won five tournaments out of twelve in the considered timespan; four Code S in a row is unprecedent and impressive as you say but alone it does not make you a bonjwa, "only" WESG still is not enough according to the criteria I extensively explained before.
You should be more clear that this is obviously your opinion and not based on anything other than that lol. There are plenty of people (myself included) that think 3 code s titles in a row makes a bonjwa. Its by far the hardest tournament in the world to win (ask soO) and he did it 3 times in a row..a 4th would cement his super saiyan legendary bonjwa status in my book. His accomplishments are unmatched and no one else has shown anything close to this in sc2 history. Please spare me the joke about Serrals 4 WCS "premier" wins. Thank u. If Maru "isn't close" to bonjwa then we clearly haven't had anyone "even close" to being one in sc2 - which sounds a bit stupid after 10 years.
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
If you want to extend the period I am considering feel free to, Maru didn't win anything in the previous two years at least; those thirtheen months I mentioned are the ones enclosing his Premier victories.
We are not even discussing who was the best player in 2018(according to TL writers themselves and the majority of TLers it was Serral); including the tournaments played in 2019 is integral to your call of Maru being bonjwa.
Discounting Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World really is cherrypicking. It might seem that I hate Maru, but in reality it's just that his run, albeit unprecedent in Code S, is not really suitable with the definition of bonjwa(while Life's definitely is).
LOL. Tastosis in the first 10 minutes of the broadcast clowned everything you've been whining on here. Like I said apparently six times.. you are cherrypicking . 2018 4 out of 9 if you count ST and GSLvWorld which plenty of people dont..if u dont 4 out of 6. And now 4 code S in a row lol. Keep crying not even close though when the literal standard setters in the industry dont agree with you.
Artosis is known to call everyone a bonjwa(Rogue?).
"Cherrypicking" is selecting only statistics favourable to your claim, I am including every single Premier tournament Maru played in since 2018 so your accusation is totally out of place.
Maru won five tournaments out of twelve in the considered timespan; four Code S in a row is unprecedent and impressive as you say but alone it does not make you a bonjwa, "only" WESG still is not enough according to the criteria I extensively explained before.
Broooo. Stop crying nonsense. The time considered is 2018. And the stats are as I put them per liquipedia.
The fact of the matter is the guy has more respect from the industry in his one pylon than you will ever have in total. What he said is 100 percent counter what you keep trying to spew as "fact". So just get off it already and go watch a Serral vod youll feel better.
Again not proclaiming Bonjwa just lolling ur delusion bias nonsense "not even close" declaration
No, this is not merely my opinion. Look for the true meaning of the word bonjwa and you will find out by yourself the term(that is strictly tied to Brood War and has never fit Sc2 anyway) is tied to almost complete domination in the most relevant competitions throughout a certain period of time, even quite short.
Consistency doesn't help and winning a single tournament multiple times, no matter how hard or prestigious, in the span of one year doesn't especially strenghten your claim on the title ; Jaedong, with all his successes, was never crowned bonjwa.
Mvp in 2011 and Life in 2012/2013(even more: five Premier tournaments, including Code S, won in five months) were the closest to a bonjwa Sc2 ever had; Serral in 2018 showcased bonjwa level win percentages and domination but he was objectively helped in this regard as he was playing in WCS, he had to keep winning international tournaments this year to truly cement himself as one.
If Maru is bonjwa "by your book" then it's just your own delusion, his fourth Code S win would lead him way closer to be GOAT than bonjwa(despite I still think he wouldn't be GOAT because of his lack of successes in weekenders, not to mention Inno would still be three premier tournaments victories ahead of him).
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
If you want to extend the period I am considering feel free to, Maru didn't win anything in the previous two years at least; those thirtheen months I mentioned are the ones enclosing his Premier victories.
We are not even discussing who was the best player in 2018(according to TL writers themselves and the majority of TLers it was Serral); including the tournaments played in 2019 is integral to your call of Maru being bonjwa.
Discounting Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World really is cherrypicking. It might seem that I hate Maru, but in reality it's just that his run, albeit unprecedent in Code S, is not really suitable with the definition of bonjwa(while Life's definitely is).
LOL. Tastosis in the first 10 minutes of the broadcast clowned everything you've been whining on here. Like I said apparently six times.. you are cherrypicking . 2018 4 out of 9 if you count ST and GSLvWorld which plenty of people dont..if u dont 4 out of 6. And now 4 code S in a row lol. Keep crying not even close though when the literal standard setters in the industry dont agree with you.
Artosis is known to call everyone a bonjwa(Rogue?).
"Cherrypicking" is selecting only statistics favourable to your claim, I am including every single Premier tournament Maru played in since 2018 so your accusation is totally out of place.
Maru won five tournaments out of twelve in the considered timespan; four Code S in a row is unprecedent and impressive as you say but alone it does not make you a bonjwa, "only" WESG still is not enough according to the criteria I extensively explained before.
Broooo. Stop crying nonsense. The time considered is 2018. And the stats are as I put them per liquipedia.
The fact of the matter is the guy has more respect from the industry in his one pylon than you will ever have in total. What he said is 100 percent counter what you keep trying to spew as "fact". So just get off it already and go watch a Serral vod youll feel better.
Man, this is becoming stupid; I am not whining, you are just fanboying above reason. Artosis is great but that doesn't imply people are bonjwa when he says they are, we would be drowning in bonjwas if that was the case.
I am adding the results for 2019 as well, if you want to look at 2018 only it's even more evident that Maru was(is) not a bonjwa; he was not even the best player of the year according to TL writers and the majority of posters, what the hell are you on?
Not even close, yes. Five premier out of seven in five months was not a bonjwa run, five out of twelve in thirteen months should be because four of those five were Code S titles? It's funny that you even mention delusion.
Thanks for confirming my original thought on ur post lol. Brick probably feels a little dumb now for defending u. Consistently dominating the most relevant competitions for a whole year is more than enough for me. Just my opinion though (see what I did there)
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
If you want to extend the period I am considering feel free to, Maru didn't win anything in the previous two years at least; those thirtheen months I mentioned are the ones enclosing his Premier victories.
We are not even discussing who was the best player in 2018(according to TL writers themselves and the majority of TLers it was Serral); including the tournaments played in 2019 is integral to your call of Maru being bonjwa.
Discounting Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World really is cherrypicking. It might seem that I hate Maru, but in reality it's just that his run, albeit unprecedent in Code S, is not really suitable with the definition of bonjwa(while Life's definitely is).
LOL. Tastosis in the first 10 minutes of the broadcast clowned everything you've been whining on here. Like I said apparently six times.. you are cherrypicking . 2018 4 out of 9 if you count ST and GSLvWorld which plenty of people dont..if u dont 4 out of 6. And now 4 code S in a row lol. Keep crying not even close though when the literal standard setters in the industry dont agree with you.
Artosis is known to call everyone a bonjwa(Rogue?).
"Cherrypicking" is selecting only statistics favourable to your claim, I am including every single Premier tournament Maru played in since 2018 so your accusation is totally out of place.
Maru won five tournaments out of twelve in the considered timespan; four Code S in a row is unprecedent and impressive as you say but alone it does not make you a bonjwa, "only" WESG still is not enough according to the criteria I extensively explained before.
Broooo. Stop crying nonsense. The time considered is 2018. And the stats are as I put them per liquipedia.
The fact of the matter is the guy has more respect from the industry in his one pylon than you will ever have in total. What he said is 100 percent counter what you keep trying to spew as "fact". So just get off it already and go watch a Serral vod youll feel better.
Man, this is becoming stupid; I am not whining, you are just fanboying above reason. Artosis is great but that doesn't imply people are bonjwa when he says they are, we would be drowning in bonjwas if that was the case.
I am adding the results for 2019 as well, if you want to look at 2018 only it's even more evident that Maru was(is) not a bonjwa; he was not even the best player of the year according to TL writers and the majority of posters, what the hell are you on?
Not even close, yes. Five premier out of seven in five months was not a bonjwa run, five out of twelve in thirteen months should be because four of those five were Code S titles? It's funny that you even mention delusion.
Lololol. It doesnt matter how many times you repeat it man. It doesnt make it true. In 2018 its 4 / 9 if u count ST/GSLvW. Its 4/6 if you dont. No matter how many times you say thats not what it is lolol. Ill leave u alone now tho I can tell you are getting upset.
As I said, if only Code S existed Maru would be bonjwa, unfortunately there are actually other korean and international tournaments that can be considered releavant ; the plural in competitionS is key, I means you have to dominate all of most of the premier tournament you participate in.
By winning tomorrow, Maru would have won five premier tournaments out of twelve he played in the span of almost thirteen months; only two of these, the first, were consecutive in March 2018. After that, he won in June, September and (if he beats Classic) April 2019; unprecedent domination in Code S and overall nice consistency but not even close to near invincibility and density of successes needed to be a bonjwa.
There is no need for people to defend me, the dumb thing is actually trying to subvert the meaning of words so that they please your vision; just as Maru might be 1.90 mt tall in your opinion but, in reality, he is not, according to the generally accepted definition of bonjwa Maru is far from being one.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
If you want to extend the period I am considering feel free to, Maru didn't win anything in the previous two years at least; those thirtheen months I mentioned are the ones enclosing his Premier victories.
We are not even discussing who was the best player in 2018(according to TL writers themselves and the majority of TLers it was Serral); including the tournaments played in 2019 is integral to your call of Maru being bonjwa.
Discounting Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World really is cherrypicking. It might seem that I hate Maru, but in reality it's just that his run, albeit unprecedent in Code S, is not really suitable with the definition of bonjwa(while Life's definitely is).
LOL. Tastosis in the first 10 minutes of the broadcast clowned everything you've been whining on here. Like I said apparently six times.. you are cherrypicking . 2018 4 out of 9 if you count ST and GSLvWorld which plenty of people dont..if u dont 4 out of 6. And now 4 code S in a row lol. Keep crying not even close though when the literal standard setters in the industry dont agree with you.
Artosis is known to call everyone a bonjwa(Rogue?).
"Cherrypicking" is selecting only statistics favourable to your claim, I am including every single Premier tournament Maru played in since 2018 so your accusation is totally out of place.
Maru won five tournaments out of twelve in the considered timespan; four Code S in a row is unprecedent and impressive as you say but alone it does not make you a bonjwa, "only" WESG still is not enough according to the criteria I extensively explained before.
Broooo. Stop crying nonsense. The time considered is 2018. And the stats are as I put them per liquipedia.
The fact of the matter is the guy has more respect from the industry in his one pylon than you will ever have in total. What he said is 100 percent counter what you keep trying to spew as "fact". So just get off it already and go watch a Serral vod youll feel better.
Man, this is becoming stupid; I am not whining, you are just fanboying above reason. Artosis is great but that doesn't imply people are bonjwa when he says they are, we would be drowning in bonjwas if that was the case.
I am adding the results for 2019 as well, if you want to look at 2018 only it's even more evident that Maru was(is) not a bonjwa; he was not even the best player of the year according to TL writers and the majority of posters, what the hell are you on?
Not even close, yes. Five premier out of seven in five months was not a bonjwa run, five out of twelve in thirteen months should be because four of those five were Code S titles? It's funny that you even mention delusion.
Lololol. It doesnt matter how many times you repeat it man. It doesnt make it true. In 2018 its 4 / 9 if u count ST/GSLvW. Its 4/6 if you dont. No matter how many times you say thats not what it is lolol. Ill leave u alone now tho I can tell you are getting upset.
Lol, it doesn't matter how many times you fail to understand it, I have been indeed considering 4/9 in 2018 to which I'm adding 1/3 in 2019. The result is, unsurprisingly, 5/12.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled - mine is that there were 6 relevant tournaments in 2018 - 3 GSL's / Katowice/WESG/Blizzcon (the former being relevant based on the prestige and difficultly that goes along with Code S and the latter being relevant based on the prize pool and competition). Maru won 4 of the 6 - and the top 3 for difficultly in terms of the strength of the total field in the tournament (Code S - by a large margin).
It's definitely debatable whether he's bonjwa or not - but it's delusional (to use your words) to say that he's "not even close" - Again - if he's not even close - then we will never have a bonjwa in Sc2 - there is clearly more variance in Sc2 than BW - No one would have ever predicted to see domination like we did last year - I would be shocked if we ever saw it again.
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
If you want to extend the period I am considering feel free to, Maru didn't win anything in the previous two years at least; those thirtheen months I mentioned are the ones enclosing his Premier victories.
We are not even discussing who was the best player in 2018(according to TL writers themselves and the majority of TLers it was Serral); including the tournaments played in 2019 is integral to your call of Maru being bonjwa.
Discounting Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World really is cherrypicking. It might seem that I hate Maru, but in reality it's just that his run, albeit unprecedent in Code S, is not really suitable with the definition of bonjwa(while Life's definitely is).
LOL. Tastosis in the first 10 minutes of the broadcast clowned everything you've been whining on here. Like I said apparently six times.. you are cherrypicking . 2018 4 out of 9 if you count ST and GSLvWorld which plenty of people dont..if u dont 4 out of 6. And now 4 code S in a row lol. Keep crying not even close though when the literal standard setters in the industry dont agree with you.
Artosis is known to call everyone a bonjwa(Rogue?).
"Cherrypicking" is selecting only statistics favourable to your claim, I am including every single Premier tournament Maru played in since 2018 so your accusation is totally out of place.
Maru won five tournaments out of twelve in the considered timespan; four Code S in a row is unprecedent and impressive as you say but alone it does not make you a bonjwa, "only" WESG still is not enough according to the criteria I extensively explained before.
Broooo. Stop crying nonsense. The time considered is 2018. And the stats are as I put them per liquipedia.
The fact of the matter is the guy has more respect from the industry in his one pylon than you will ever have in total. What he said is 100 percent counter what you keep trying to spew as "fact". So just get off it already and go watch a Serral vod youll feel better.
Man, this is becoming stupid; I am not whining, you are just fanboying above reason. Artosis is great but that doesn't imply people are bonjwa when he says they are, we would be drowning in bonjwas if that was the case.
I am adding the results for 2019 as well, if you want to look at 2018 only it's even more evident that Maru was(is) not a bonjwa; he was not even the best player of the year according to TL writers and the majority of posters, what the hell are you on?
Not even close, yes. Five premier out of seven in five months was not a bonjwa run, five out of twelve in thirteen months should be because four of those five were Code S titles? It's funny that you even mention delusion.
Lololol. It doesnt matter how many times you repeat it man. It doesnt make it true. In 2018 its 4 / 9 if u count ST/GSLvW. Its 4/6 if you dont. No matter how many times you say thats not what it is lolol. Ill leave u alone now tho I can tell you are getting upset.
Lol, it doesn't matter how many times you fail to understand it, I have been indeed considering 4/9 in 2018 to which I'm adding 1/3 in 2019. The result is, unsurprisingly, 5/12.
So you are asserting then that a year span is not long enough?? Or you are picking a time line that helps supports your ludicrous claim? xd
Again, what I presented is not my opinion, the twelve tournaments I spoke of are the exact number of Premiers Maru played in during the period March 2018-April 2019; Life's run was of five premier tournaments won out of seven from October 2012 to March 2013, that's close to what a bonjwa should look like(not sure why he wasn't acclaimed as one) and Maru's definitely not like that.
Excluding tournaments according to your ideas is indeed coming down to opinions, what you are doing is equivalent to to think WCS are relevant enough to ignore so that Serral's run from Austin to HSC is the one of a bonjwa; convenient, uh?
Sc2 doesn't have single regional scene like in BW and tournaments are not carved in stone like OSL and MSL once were so that is harder to reach consensum and results sufficient to be crowned bonjwa.
You are doing your own cherry picking of timelines -
He played in 9 "Premier " tournaments 2018 - because Super Tournament / GSL vs the World are classified as "Premier" - even when it is known that the very top players in Korea don't take them seriously - so discounting Super tournament and GSL vs the World as I said previously - he was 4/6 - only dropping 2 series to his team Rogue/sOs during that run. And people did talk about Life as a bonwja - and I would argue that after Maru - he's probably the closest thing we had.
If you want to extend the period I am considering feel free to, Maru didn't win anything in the previous two years at least; those thirtheen months I mentioned are the ones enclosing his Premier victories.
We are not even discussing who was the best player in 2018(according to TL writers themselves and the majority of TLers it was Serral); including the tournaments played in 2019 is integral to your call of Maru being bonjwa.
Discounting Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World really is cherrypicking. It might seem that I hate Maru, but in reality it's just that his run, albeit unprecedent in Code S, is not really suitable with the definition of bonjwa(while Life's definitely is).
LOL. Tastosis in the first 10 minutes of the broadcast clowned everything you've been whining on here. Like I said apparently six times.. you are cherrypicking . 2018 4 out of 9 if you count ST and GSLvWorld which plenty of people dont..if u dont 4 out of 6. And now 4 code S in a row lol. Keep crying not even close though when the literal standard setters in the industry dont agree with you.
Artosis is known to call everyone a bonjwa(Rogue?).
"Cherrypicking" is selecting only statistics favourable to your claim, I am including every single Premier tournament Maru played in since 2018 so your accusation is totally out of place.
Maru won five tournaments out of twelve in the considered timespan; four Code S in a row is unprecedent and impressive as you say but alone it does not make you a bonjwa, "only" WESG still is not enough according to the criteria I extensively explained before.
Broooo. Stop crying nonsense. The time considered is 2018. And the stats are as I put them per liquipedia.
The fact of the matter is the guy has more respect from the industry in his one pylon than you will ever have in total. What he said is 100 percent counter what you keep trying to spew as "fact". So just get off it already and go watch a Serral vod youll feel better.
Man, this is becoming stupid; I am not whining, you are just fanboying above reason. Artosis is great but that doesn't imply people are bonjwa when he says they are, we would be drowning in bonjwas if that was the case.
I am adding the results for 2019 as well, if you want to look at 2018 only it's even more evident that Maru was(is) not a bonjwa; he was not even the best player of the year according to TL writers and the majority of posters, what the hell are you on?
Not even close, yes. Five premier out of seven in five months was not a bonjwa run, five out of twelve in thirteen months should be because four of those five were Code S titles? It's funny that you even mention delusion.
Lololol. It doesnt matter how many times you repeat it man. It doesnt make it true. In 2018 its 4 / 9 if u count ST/GSLvW. Its 4/6 if you dont. No matter how many times you say thats not what it is lolol. Ill leave u alone now tho I can tell you are getting upset.
Lol, it doesn't matter how many times you fail to understand it, I have been indeed considering 4/9 in 2018 to which I'm adding 1/3 in 2019. The result is, unsurprisingly, 5/12.
So you are asserting then that a year span is not long enough?? Or you are picking a time line that helps supports your ludicrous claim? xd
It's pretty easy, my reasonable claim is that Maru's performance is not remotely dominant enough for him to be called bonjwa.
Liquipedia's definition of the term is "a bonjwa has very high winning percentage and successive tournament wins"; 40% is good but definitely not "very high", while the tournament wins have to be chronologically consecutive(like Flash's in 2010). Maru's Code S victories are indeed back to back relatively to the competition but they are months away one from each other with and he proceeded to lose all the other tournaments that he played in meanwhile, WESG being the exception.
Life's run is way more fitting to bonjwa's criterias and yet he wasn't crowned as such, it would be silly to call Maru a bonjwa now.
It’s sad Classic will go in the military soon, hopefully there will still be a sc2 scene in the future when he returns.
The bonjwa debate doesn’t make sense though because it’s intended for sc:BW based on past experiences that there are people in there eligible to be considered one. In sc2 it hasn’t happened so we better define a new term similar to bonjwa but with eligible sc2 players, or just don’t bother anymore with that word.
On April 15 2019 02:24 Poopi wrote: So Xainon is Rodya / Dave4 alt as well right?
It’s sad Classic will go in the military soon, hopefully there will still be a sc2 scene in the future when he returns.
The bonjwa debate doesn’t make sense though because it’s intended for sc:BW based on past experiences that there are people in there eligible to be considered one. In sc2 it hasn’t happened so we better define a new term similar to bonjwa but with eligible sc2 players, or just don’t bother anymore with that word.
Just because I don't worship Maru I should be one unreliable troll spouting senseless theories? Trying to discredit me this way is nothing but a low bow.
I said already bonjwa is a word created and intended for Brood War, yet there should be players whose results could theorically made them considered one; Maru simply is not one of those. And this is not because I dislike Maru, if he wins other five Premier tournaments until November he may very well be one; at the moment his results, despite amazing, are not suitable with the b word.
The GSL ST is just too soon after the GSL code S finals. There are just 4 days to rest and prepare, after 2+ months of preparations for GSL code S games. The winner of the GSL is difficult to blame if he doesn't keep working hard for this tournament. In 2 weeks GSL code S season 2 starts. No time to rest. I can understand if he chooses to take time off to recover before the next season.
For me GSL code S is the most important tournament due to it's prestige, tradition and due to remaining the only preparation tournament, since proleague has been gone. I really enjoy the format of 1 game per week, I think it allows the player to give it's best and show it's highest level. 4 GSLs in a row it's something incredible. People were amazed when soO played and lost 4 consecutive finals. 4 consecutive wins? It's shocking.
It's pretty easy, my reasonable claim is that Maru's performance is not remotely dominant enough for him to be called bonjwa.
Liquipedia's definition of the term is "a bonjwa has very high winning percentage and successive tournament wins"; 40% is good but definitely not "very high", while the tournament wins have to be chronologically consecutive(like Flash's in 2010). Maru's Code S victories are indeed back to back relatively to the competition but they are months away one from each other with and he proceeded to lose all the other tournaments that he played in meanwhile, WESG being the exception.
Life's run is way more fitting to bonjwa's criterias and yet he wasn't crowned as such, it would be silly to call Maru a bonjwa now.
His winrate since the beginning of 2018 is 69.11 in maps and 75.69% in matches
In 2018 only it was 68.62% in maps and 76.47% in matches.
Winrates aren't just how many tournaments you win, but your maps and matches.
Flash's winrates at the peak of his career, 74.1% in 2009, 75% in 2010, 74.1% in 2011
Flash did win more tournaments more consistently at his peak, however even among the other 'bonjwas' he was clearly in a league of his own
It's pretty easy, my reasonable claim is that Maru's performance is not remotely dominant enough for him to be called bonjwa.
Liquipedia's definition of the term is "a bonjwa has very high winning percentage and successive tournament wins"; 40% is good but definitely not "very high", while the tournament wins have to be chronologically consecutive(like Flash's in 2010). Maru's Code S victories are indeed back to back relatively to the competition but they are months away one from each other with and he proceeded to lose all the other tournaments that he played in meanwhile, WESG being the exception.
Life's run is way more fitting to bonjwa's criterias and yet he wasn't crowned as such, it would be silly to call Maru a bonjwa now.
His winrate since the beginning of 2018 is 69.11 in maps and 75.69% in matches
In 2018 only it was 68.62% in maps and 76.47% in matches.
Winrates aren't just how many tournaments you win, but your maps and matches.
Flash's winrates at the peak of his career, 74.1% in 2009, 75% in 2010, 74.1% in 2011
Flash did win more tournaments more consistently at his peak, however even among the other 'bonjwas' he was clearly in a league of his own
Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories. No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote: Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories. No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote: Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories. No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again.
The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019.
On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote: Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories. No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again.
The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019.
Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in premeir tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player.
Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it
On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote: Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories. No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again.
The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019.
Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player.
Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it
No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic.
You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans.
On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote: Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories. No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again.
The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019.
Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player.
Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it
No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic.
You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans.
LOL. Look what you just wrote bro. You are like "how dare u say hes 2/8 hes 2/7!!! He must be considered banjo!! Hey if i go all the way back in time hes 2 / infinity. Also increasingly implies more.. you dont need to state it twice..just trying to help you out so you sound less ridiculous.
On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote: Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories. No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again.
The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019.
Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player.
Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it
No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic.
You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans.
LOL. Look what you just wrote bro. You are like "how dare u say hes 2/8 hes 2/7!!! He must be considered banjo!! Hey if i go all the way back in time hes 2 / infinity. Also increasingly implies more.. you dont need to state it twice..just trying to help you out so you sound less ridiculous.
Hm, quite convinced you could say "increasingly more"; that doesn't change the fact I am discussing with a child, at the moment. If you want to look at numbers be sure to pick the right ones, it's pointless otherwise.
The main point of all that was Maru not being dominant enough to be called bonjwa and it went back to the "lulz Serral sucks WCS<Olimoleague brah" argument which I vastly discussed on this forum(I am becoming boring on doing that, just enjoy his TL player of the year 2018 award).
You didn't write actually write anything that can disprove my point. Maru is the most successful player in preparation tournaments in history, the most accomplished in premier korean tournaments and was the best korean player and best Terran in 2018; he's a couple of Premier tournaments from being GOAT(assuming Inno stops winning), but he definitely is not bonjwa.
After looking closely at Maru's very best streak in 2018, however, I have to reconsider my statement: saying he was "far from" or "not even close to" being a bonjwa is exaggerating; he wasn't far either but both Serral's successes in 2018 and Life's arguably better streak in the past prevent the title to be given to Maru.
On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote: Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories. No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again.
The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019.
Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player.
Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it
No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic.
You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans.
LOL. Look what you just wrote bro. You are like "how dare u say hes 2/8 hes 2/7!!! He must be considered banjo!! Hey if i go all the way back in time hes 2 / infinity. Also increasingly implies more.. you dont need to state it twice..just trying to help you out so you sound less ridiculous.
he's a couple of Premier tournaments from being GOAT(assuming Inno stops winning)
I don't want to get deeply into this discussion, but what people in general simply never care about for some reason is the holistic success of a player, it's not only 1st places which are important here, it's not only individual ones either. A one time GSL winner imo wouldn't and shouldn't be seen as more successful than say a 4 time semi finalist. The same concept has to be applied when you wanna evaluate the career of any player. Maru didn't only win GSL 4 times and has 6 starleagues in total, he also has a lot of other high place finishes in these tournaments while also being one of the very best proleague players in sc2 (maybe the best). He also has some good finishes at weekenders, though comparatively to his starleague success it is worse, sure. Now at this moment i am too lazy to compile all the data for the usual goat contenders, but imo one would have to look at the whole career and basically every result (where low place finishes might be negligible, but at least ro8 and better should be considered) to really make a strong case for anyone.
The biggest problem with the bonjwa question is that it is a bw term and their tournament scene was completely different. Only starleagues and proleague really mattered, the sc2 scene changed that (though noone can really agree on what matters how much, etc :D ) I get that people want sc2 to have one as well though, it's a nice sounding title
On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote: Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories. No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again.
The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019.
Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player.
Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it
No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic.
You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans.
LOL. Look what you just wrote bro. You are like "how dare u say hes 2/8 hes 2/7!!! He must be considered banjo!! Hey if i go all the way back in time hes 2 / infinity. Also increasingly implies more.. you dont need to state it twice..just trying to help you out so you sound less ridiculous.
Hm, quite convinced you could say "increasingly more"; that doesn't change the fact I am discussing with a child, at the moment. If you want to look at numbers be sure to pick the right ones, it's pointless otherwise.
The main point of all that was Maru not being dominant enough to be called bonjwa and it went back to the "lulz Serral sucks WCS<Olimoleague brah" argument which I vastly discussed on this forum(I am becoming boring on doing that, just enjoy his TL player of the year 2018 award).
You didn't write actually write anything that can disprove my point. Maru is the most successful player in preparation tournaments in history, the most accomplished in premier korean tournaments and was the best korean player and best Terran in 2018; he's a couple of Premier tournaments from being GOAT(assuming Inno stops winning), but he definitely is not bonjwa.
After looking closely at Maru's very best streak in 2018, however, I have to reconsider my statement: saying he was "far from" or "not even close to" being a bonjwa is exaggerating; he wasn't far either but both Serral's successes in 2018 and Life's arguably better streak in the past prevent the title to be given to Maru.
Maru is the youngest royal in SC2 Maru is the only double royal roader in SC2 Maru won all 3 starleagues Maru is the best PL player in SC2 history (if you check the year statistics of PL he was either 1st or 2nd while the other place was different) Maru met the soO record of 4 consecutive Code S finals Maru won Code S 4 times in a row(previous record was 2 times in a row) 19 times in Code S(top is Gumi with 20)
Somebody did the math about RO4 numbers. I would reword it as Maru also quite consistently gets to RO8 or better but I'm too lazy.
The PL and 3 starleages by itself would be enough to get Bonjwa status in BW IMO edit> or goat, w/e
On April 15 2019 05:43 Xain0n wrote: Hah, if you want to speak of win ratios why are we leaving Serral out? He truly had the streak and domination of a bonjwa in 2018 and was better than Maru in this regard, as well as in total victories. No consensus would ever be reached about the quality of Serral's victory, but his 2018 is another big counterargument to Maru being bonjwa(as well as better period of dominations achieved by korean players in the past, like Life's winter run in 2012/2013).
Because Serral won the vast majority of those games in wcs, whereas Maru completed almost exclusively vs Koreans and foreigners notable enough to make a splash in international tournaments
Not really a "vast majority"; however, I am not going to discuss this again.
The point here is why Maru can't called bonjwa, assuming there could be one in sc2, when considering his achievements in 2018-2019.
Not a "vast majority" ?? Lmao. Hes 2 and 8 in major tournaments that allow Koreans if u count GSLvW if not hes 1 and 6. Winrates @ wcs mean nothing when u might play 1 or 2 series with a ro32 level code S player.
Both of his wins were in tournaments that gaurentee a 50% foreigner field. Gettttt off it
No way, especially since your attempts are becoming increasingly more pathetic.
You are speaking of Premier tournaments, I guess? Since the start of 2018 until today there were Pyeonchang, Katowicex2 ,WESGx2, GSL vs The World and BlizzCon(HSC XVIII too, but was not a premier). Serral won 2/7(or 3/8) by facing top koreans only(except for Kelazhur) in his victorious runs at GSL vs The World and BlizzCon; he was really affected by the 50% foreigner field, right? Not to mention his offline winstreak in 2018/2019 of 44 offline series included 20 against koreans.
LOL. Look what you just wrote bro. You are like "how dare u say hes 2/8 hes 2/7!!! He must be considered banjo!! Hey if i go all the way back in time hes 2 / infinity. Also increasingly implies more.. you dont need to state it twice..just trying to help you out so you sound less ridiculous.
he's a couple of Premier tournaments from being GOAT(assuming Inno stops winning)
I don't want to get deeply into this discussion, but what people in general simply never care about for some reason is the holistic success of a player, it's not only 1st places which are important here, it's not only individual ones either. A one time GSL winner imo wouldn't and shouldn't be seen as more successful than say a 4 time semi finalist. The same concept has to be applied when you wanna evaluate the career of any player. Maru didn't only win GSL 4 times and has 6 starleagues in total, he also has a lot of other high place finishes in these tournaments while also being one of the very best proleague players in sc2 (maybe the best). He also has some good finishes at weekenders, though comparatively to his starleague success it is worse, sure. Now at this moment i am too lazy to compile all the data for the usual goat contenders, but imo one would have to look at the whole career and basically every result (where low place finishes might be negligible, but at least ro8 and better should be considered) to really make a strong case for anyone.
The biggest problem with the bonjwa question is that it is a bw term and their tournament scene was completely different. Only starleagues and proleague really mattered, the sc2 scene changed that (though noone can really agree on what matters how much, etc :D ) I get that people want sc2 to have one as well though, it's a nice sounding title
I perfectly agree with you, not only victories should define someone's career. However, it's up to how much you value certain tournaments when compared to certain others, if you want to add results obtained in Majors et cetera? If you take into considerations 4th places at best and add Major results to Premiers you could have unexpected results such as MC being GOAT.
While Proleague was certainly a relevant part of Sc2's history, it definitely is not as integral the way it is in Brood War. Both Inno and Maru were astonishing Proleague players with Inno having the most titles won and the most allkills(tied with Stats) and Maru the highest win percentage among top 10 PL players and a positive Ace record; none of them is the best player in Proleague history, that seems Stats to me since he has more victories than both, the highest allkill amount, a win ratio better than Inno's and a better ace record than Maru's.
Neglecting GSTL is extremely arbitrary, if you want to include team league results you should add GSTL's as well.
One definitely would need to think about relative worth of the tournaments a lot, people wouldn't agree on this ever, at least not 100%, but i think one could make a reasonable case. Definitely agree with GSTL being part of it as well, in general i would consider all offline tournaments.
I only brought this up because i only ever see people talk about the number of tournament wins, which imo isn't nuanced enough to really be worth talking about.
Just where my "best PL player" is coming from, i just briefly checked the yearly statistics and maru is either 2nd of first while the players around are changing, so I just pronounced him. There are certainly others who were good(Inno) it's just that Maru was up there all the time consistently.
serral's dominance in wcs is meaningless due to region lock. blame blizzard for coddling foreigners and killing korean sc2. maybe if there were no region lock it'd mean something. dump any top korean into wcs, like polt in NA, and he's gonna be winning everything. thats why jinro, huk, naniwa, and stephano are celebrated. cause they fought koreans and made them bleed.
EDIT: forgot to add neeb and scarlett to the list. they were winning or placing high pre region lock
On April 16 2019 03:56 fishjie wrote: serral's dominance in wcs is meaningless due to region lock. blame blizzard for coddling foreigners and killing korean sc2. maybe if there were no region lock it'd mean something. dump any top korean into wcs, like polt in NA, and he's gonna be winning everything. thats why jinro, huk, naniwa, and stephano are celebrated. cause they fought koreans and made them bleed.
I think you can't even argue that Maru is the best ever (i dont even think i'm biased, but i might be). 4 Code S in a row, meanwhile INno's fanboys are saying that 3 in 5 years is awesome ...
I think you can't even argue that Maru is the best ever (i dont even think i'm biased, but i might be). 4 Code S in a row, meanwhile INno's fanboys are saying that 3 in 5 years is awesome ...