It's easy to get sucked in by the narrative of a fairytale. After all, it feels good to see an underdog live out a sports movie plot in real life, and WCS 2018 has provided us with plenty of that kind of storytelling. Reynor beat Classic in GSL and the went on 3-0 SpeCial in his WCS debut; Lambo had a career breakthrough at WCS Austin; ShoWTimE made up for a poor 2017 by making it to the finals in his home country of Germany.
Standing out above all, are two of the most surprising finals runs of Legacy of the Void: MaNa at WCS Austin and Has at WCS Valencia. Has' shocking performance won him a fan-voted spot at GSL vs. The World, and both Has and MaNa may be headed to BlizzCon after dismal starts to LotV. You can practically read the headlines in your head: ' 'StarCraft 2 : The game where anything can happen.' It doesn't matter that both Has and MaNa both lost in the finals, or that MaNa ended up falling back to earth in Valencia. All that matters is, in the moment, StarCraft II felt exciting.
But, how? How is it possible for someone like MaNa to come from out of absolutely nowhere, beat all of the great European players, and even look fairly competitive against Serral? How could he perform so well at a single WCS without any prior success in LotV? Was that all a blip on the radar, a glitch in the matrix, with our hero destined to wake up to reality? Or could it be something else?
Before making the finals in WCS Austin, there was absolutely no hint that MaNa was going to do anything extraordinary going into the event. He was eliminated in the RO48 of WCS Leipzig, the first WCS event of the year (losing to JonSnow and Lambo). He wasn't particularly good in the lead-up to Austin, not winning a single set during the regional qualifiers (losing to Elazer and Harstem in groups). He wasn't even particularly good on day 1 of WCS Austin—he seemed well on his way to another disappointment after losing 0-2 to souL in group stage #2, though he survived to make it to the playoffs.
There, the miracle began. MaNa proceeded to beat Neeb (a 3-time WCS champion and finals favorite), Snute (a hall of fame-worthy foreigner) and SpeCial (BlizzCon semifinalist and one of the best foreign Terrans of all time). During that stretch, he lost just a single map. Even in his finals loss to Serral, MaNa managed to look damn good. He went up 2-1 early, and narrowly missed a chance to take a 3-1 lead over the seemingly invincible Zerg champion. The series ended with Serral shutting MaNa down taking his second WCS title, but MaNa was the true star of the tournament. Fans praised MaNa for his phenomenal play, and we were giddy with anticipation to see how far he could go at the upcoming WCS Valencia. It seemed too good to be just a spark in the darkness. Surely, it was a light that would continue to shine.
It wasn't. At least, it doesn't seem that way for now. MaNa may do better at WCS Montreal, but any hope of him truly being a contender for Serral's throne is long gone. He was poor at HomeStory Cup, losing to Namshar, Bunny and FanTaSy. He earned a WCS Valencia seed in WCS Challenger, but was fortunate to get an easy bracket with Rail and Bly (he went 0-5 combined against Serral and Snute). Then, at WCS Valencia, he was eliminated from the group stages by Bly. What happened? How can someone who appeared to be so great become mediocre-at-best?
Photo: Carlton Beener (via Blizzard)
At the same tournament, at the same time, Has began his run. When he defeated SpeCial and Elazer in groups, it was pretty easily written off as Has being Has. The Taiwanese Protoss had always been capable of getting upsets with his unpredictable play. He was sure to flop in best-of-fives, as usual. Then he beat Kelazhur in the RO16. Then Nerchio. Then ShoWTimE. His finals performance against Serral wasn't as competitive as MaNa's, but once again it didn't matter. Has was the star of the tournament simply by making it to the finals while sticking to his unusual style of play. At #7 in the WCS Circuit rankings, Has—once a meme and tournament sideshow—must legitimately be called a top foreigner.
How did we arrive here? Let's take a closer look.
While everyone celebrates MaNa for his thrilling win over SpeCial and macro-game wins over Serral (impressive feats for sure), it was his earlier sweeps of Snute and Neeb that started his unlikely run. Neeb famously won the 2016 KeSPA Cup during a period where he was the best PvP player in the world, but he looked totally lost against MaNa in 2018. His game sense was completely off, his decision making was bad, and he struggled to exert any control over the games. After falling behind 0-2 in the series, he lost his Phoenix scout before losing to the following all-in. While MaNa deserves credit for exploiting Neeb's mistakes with sharp decision making and good execution, Neeb's poor play stood out even more.
The series against Snute told a similar story. In game one, MaNa went for a cannon rush, and Snute quickly resigned himself to defeat after his initial defense went poorly. In game two, Snute found himself in a great position after taking out an Archon drop, but failed to capitalize on his advantage. In the final game of the sweep, Snute tapped out after being crippled by MaNa's Adept play. In the case of both Snute and Neeb, they just looked off—nowhere close to their vaunted reputations.
In terms of resistance from opponents, Has had it even easier. It's true that Has looked more mechanically sound than before (a far shout from the player who actively sabotaged his own leads), but he was getting plenty of help from his opponents as well. One moment that stood out was when Kelazhur got his CC cancelled by a sneaky Adept in game five. It's not the worst mistake we've ever seen, but also not the kind of un-clutch play you'd expect from a former BlizzCon participant. In a similar vein, ShoWTimE failed to account for a two-Adept runby in game five of their series, and ended up taking a crippling amount of Probe damage. One might say that these were not unforced-errors, that Has rattled his opponents with his crazy strategies and general reputation for cheese. But if that were the case, then why hasn't he been able to achieve that affect with any regularity?
Photo: Andre Hainke (via Blizzard)
Even as Serral dominates the WCS Circuit, MaNa, Has, Lambo, and others have shown us how the middle-class can rise up and challenge the established stars for the right to go to BlizzCon. Therein lies the double-edged nature of the current WCS Circuit. To optimists, that 'anyone can make it' vibe could seem charming, perhaps even indicating that the Circuit is more competitive than ever. To me, it's distressing. With the exception of Serral, the 'top foreigners' have not lived up to their billing. The foundation of their stardom has been shown to be perilously fragile. An ideal competitive scene isn't one where anything can happen—it's one where anyone can play well, but the best are usually triumphant in the end. Miracles ceases to be meaningful when they become commonplace. By definition, miracles should be so exquisitely rare that they are indistinguishable from acts of god.
Ideally, your competitive scene looks like Korean StarCraft during the KeSPA heyday during 2014~2015. Every team had a number of immensely talented players, but there was still a solid hierarchy of skill. When Rain disrupted the established order to win a Code S championship, it truly meant something. In the current WCS, the only thing we have resembling order is Serral.
MaNa and Has' runs were entertaining and heartwarming in the short term, but we might feel differently about those runs when BlizzCon comes around. I recall when Elazer barely squeezed into Blizzcon in 2016 and then defeated ShoWTimE and Nerchio on his way to the semifinals. Both of ShoWTimE and Nerchio were well-established pros who had shown us incredibly enjoyable, competitive series against Korean pros in the group stage. Elazer ended up getting thrashed 3-0 by Dark in an utterly uninteresting series. In hindsight, we're lucky that Elazer grew from the experience and became a champion himself, because there was a very real chance that we'd only remember him for that one run (funny enough, Elazer has joined the growing pack of indistinguishable 'championship contenders' in WCS 2018). Upsetting two foreigners and then getting ritually slaughtered by a Korean: we've seen that result at too many pre-region lock tournaments to get excited.
If the top foreigners—the ones who have proven they can play competitive games against Koreans—are unable to win consistently on the WCS Circuit, we're headed to another predictable BlizzCon. A few moral victories in the group stage, ruthless stomps by top Koreans in the playoffs, and maybe a bracket-aided 'miracle' run we can hold up for a year. I don't blame this year's underdogs for coming out of nowhere to win—they deserve all their plaudits and success. But I do blame the veterans for not bringing their A-game—whether it's due to underestimating their opponents or lack of preparation—and allowing so much chaos to seep into the WCS Circuit.
GSL vs. The World looms, and we'll soon see if Has' black magic works at the highest level of StarCraft II. But more importantly, we'll also get to see foreigner hopes such as ShoWTimE, Scarlett, and SpeCial take on perhaps their greatest test of the year. All of three of them have earned star status by winning big series against Korean pros, and all three have also crumbled spectacularly in 2018: Scarlett by being eliminated by Guru (IEM) and Namshar (WCS), ShoWTimE with his meltdown against Has, and SpeCial by blowing his best chance of making a finals against MaNa. GSL vs. the World is an opportunity to earn redemption, but it's redemption they shouldn't need in the first place.
Jokes aside, this is kind of how I thought about StarCraft II when I was a peak Korean-elitist. This article might resonate with TL.net's forum regulars, but I think 'stop telling people not to have fun' would also be an appropriate reaction XD.
On July 30 2018 20:31 Waxangel wrote: Best article of all time?
Jokes aside, this is kind of how I thought about StarCraft II when I was a peak Korean-elitist. This article might resonate with TL.net's forum regulars, but I think 'stop telling people not to have fun' would also be an appropriate reaction XD.
couldn't agree more. i love korean players and make no argument that they aren't the cream of the crop in SC2, but sometimes korean elitists seem to despise any positive mention or support of foreign starcraft to a degree that defies the nature of watching sports, which is to have a good time and let the players' storylines take you for a ride
to be clear: i don't think soularion intends the article that way at all, and he makes true points which are compelling from a logical perspective. but i do think hardcore korean elitists forget (perhaps willfully) that most fans KNOW when their passions and biases are irrational - but they do it anyway because it's in the nature of this type of entertainment!
personally i don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun to watch Maru vs Rogue on Catalyst every single game than ever see a foreigner because of M E C H A N I C S, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
The fun side is that we get 9 possible finalist every WCS event. Serral + the 8 players on the other side of the bracket. As far as Blizzcon is concerned I don't think it can be worse than last years (Neeb got unlucky in my opinion, getting the worst possible group for him) and this time Serral might have a real shot.
What's needed for a decent foreigner result at Blizzcon is not 8 top tier Koreans but an elite one that gets the necessary bit of bracket luck (Neeb was this one last year, got in a group with the 2 finalist, gg). Serral looks like a better version than Neeb so we might see something different for once.
I don't disagree that Mana & Has' opponents played poorly, but I'll be damned if Has wasn't the most entertaining protoss I've seen in years! The only other toss who comes close to him in that regard is maybe sOs, but even his games are kinda predictable half the time, while Has is anything but.
P.S.
been able to achieve that affect with any regularity?
You WRITE for a living.. smh..
Even if you don't own a dictionary, you can just Google words
Why no one speak about luck, in the end of the day good/bad days chose who will shine.Just imagine Serral lucky catch 2full medivacs to Maru with hydras.
You're overselling their opponents' mistakes. Mistakes like this happen during any run--by Showtime's own admission he didn't play badly that series apart from the 2 adepts. The better player on that day won. And it's not like things like this didn't happen in Korea either (though nowadays things are so stratified they probably happen less often)--who would've predicted jjakji beating Leenock in the finals. It just so happens that it happened in WCS twice in a row.
On July 30 2018 21:06 waiting2Bbanned wrote: I don't disagree that Mana & Has' opponents played poorly, but I'll be damned if Has wasn't the most entertaining protoss I've seen in years! The only other toss who comes close to him in that regard is maybe sOs, but even his games are kinda predictable half the time, while Has is anything but.
been able to achieve that affect with any regularity?
You WRITE for a living.. smh..
Even if you don't own a dictionary, you can just Google words
'Affect' can be used as a noun in psychology--meaning: "A subjective feeling experienced in response to a thought or other stimulus; mood, emotion, especially as demonstrated in external physical signs." which mostly fits in that sentence tbh.
Great article! While I admit I'm a bit of a Korean elitist, I still look forward to GSL vs The World; especially how Has' cheese will work against the top players.
On July 30 2018 20:54 imre wrote: The fun side is that we get 9 possible finalist every WCS event. Serral + the 8 players on the other side of the bracket. As far as Blizzcon is concerned I don't think it can be worse than last years (Neeb got unlucky in my opinion, getting the worst possible group for him) and this time Serral might have a real shot.
Neeb got the easiest group he could have. PvZ was his best matchup. The other groups either contained korean terrans, or Dark/herO who I think anyone would massively favour over Neeb. Maybe he gets out of group A given how badly Stats' played on the day.
edit: to clarify, just because soO made the finals doesn't make him one of the best players at the event. He beat literally one korean to get there. herO, TY, INno, Rogue, and Dark were all better than him at that point imo.
On July 30 2018 20:54 imre wrote: The fun side is that we get 9 possible finalist every WCS event. Serral + the 8 players on the other side of the bracket. As far as Blizzcon is concerned I don't think it can be worse than last years (Neeb got unlucky in my opinion, getting the worst possible group for him) and this time Serral might have a real shot.
edit: to clarify, just because soO made the finals doesn't make him one of the best players at the event. He beat literally one korean to get there. herO, TY, INno, Rogue, and Dark were all better than him at that point imo.
he beat the foreigners other koreans lost to. rogue lost to neeb; soO beat neeb (with his first try). stats and ty lost to special; soO beat special. he won his group unlike TY and rogue which put him in a position to dodge herO and inno in the ro8 and be placed in the korean light part of the bracket. saying he only beat one korean when other koreans lost to foreigners he beat is disingenuous and pure bias. he did play better / less flawed than those other koreans and their general form at the time has nothing to do with how they played at the event itself.
Don't get me wrong, this is a great article and i agree with most of it, but the criticism of SpeCial is completely unfair. He was in the semis in Leipzig (losing to Serral!!!!), he was in the semis at IEM PyeongChang (losing to sOs), he was in the semis in Austin (And MaNa was playing the games of his (LotV-)Carreer!) and was one map away from the GSL Ro16... I'm sorry, i fail to see how this is a bad year. oO
i guess i should break into my best Al Michael's voice.... "do you believe in Miracles?"
On July 31 2018 00:48 Djentleman2414 wrote: the criticism of SpeCial is completely unfair. He was in the semis in Leipzig (losing to Serral!!!!), he was in the semis at IEM PyeongChang (losing to sOs), he was in the semis in Austin (And MaNa was playing the games of his (LotV-)Carreer!) and was one map away from the GSL Ro16... I'm sorry, i fail to see how this is a bad year. oO
i agree , its not like Special is a 3 time GSL champ or anything. considering what Special has done in the past he is having a solid year.
On July 30 2018 20:25 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: I don't blame this year's underdogs for coming out of nowhere to win—they deserve all their plaudits and success. But I do blame the veterans for not bringing their A-game—whether it's due to underestimating their opponents or lack of preparation—and allowing so much chaos to seep into the WCS Circuit.
If I were a pro, especially one of those implied, I don't know how I would feel about that part. Reads like "how dare you guys not practice even more than you already do so that the tournaments unfold precisely the way I like them" ...
I think you might be reading a bit too much into this. Weird things happen sometimes.
On July 30 2018 20:25 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Ideally, your competitive scene looks like Korean StarCraft during the KeSPA heyday during 2014~2015. Every team had a number of immensely talented players, but there was still a solid hierarchy of skill. When Rain disrupted the established order to win a Code S championship, it truly meant something.
I mean, the first full MSL I ever watched was Lost Saga, which had Luxury winning of all people. Players like Bisu, Jaedong and Fantasy were eliminated in the group stage. Nada made the quarterfinals, and let no one say that I don't love Nada, but come on, this was 2009. It didn't mean anything. It was just a weird tournament.
On July 30 2018 20:54 imre wrote: The fun side is that we get 9 possible finalist every WCS event. Serral + the 8 players on the other side of the bracket. As far as Blizzcon is concerned I don't think it can be worse than last years (Neeb got unlucky in my opinion, getting the worst possible group for him) and this time Serral might have a real shot.
edit: to clarify, just because soO made the finals doesn't make him one of the best players at the event. He beat literally one korean to get there. herO, TY, INno, Rogue, and Dark were all better than him at that point imo.
he beat the foreigners other koreans lost to. rogue lost to neeb; soO beat neeb (with his first try). stats and ty lost to special; soO beat special. he won his group unlike TY and rogue which put him in a position to dodge herO and inno in the ro8 and be placed in the korean light part of the bracket. saying he only beat one korean when other koreans lost to foreigners he beat is disingenuous and pure bias. he did play better / less flawed than those other koreans and their general form at the time has nothing to do with how they played at the event itself.
Except Neeb and SpeCial winning their matches were the kind of results that happen 1/5 times. They were upsets for a reason. They weren't considered better players than TY or Rogue, who would win that match maybe 4/5 times and played at a higher level in all their other matches.
If you don't believe me just go back and watch the games. SpeCial played his typical ro32 level against soO and lost. Neeb didn't look that great either. So why is it so impressive that soO beat them?
soO got lucky that he faced mostly opponents who got their by upsets. It doesn't matter that they were foreigners or won suprise matches in the ro16, they simply weren't as good overall as herO, TY, INno, Dark, Rogue etc.
On July 30 2018 20:31 Waxangel wrote: Best article of all time?
Jokes aside, this is kind of how I thought about StarCraft II when I was a peak Korean-elitist. This article might resonate with TL.net's forum regulars, but I think 'stop telling people not to have fun' would also be an appropriate reaction XD.
personally i don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun to watch Maru vs Rogue on Catalyst every single game than ever see a foreigner because of M E C H A N I C S, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
Why is the game supposed to become more interesting when the players playing it happen to be white? For me there's no difference if foreigners or koreans are playing I'm here for the games.
I don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun watching Uthermal vs Snute on Catalyst every single game than ever see a korean because of W H I T E P E O P L E, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
On July 30 2018 20:31 Waxangel wrote: Best article of all time?
Jokes aside, this is kind of how I thought about StarCraft II when I was a peak Korean-elitist. This article might resonate with TL.net's forum regulars, but I think 'stop telling people not to have fun' would also be an appropriate reaction XD.
personally i don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun to watch Maru vs Rogue on Catalyst every single game than ever see a foreigner because of M E C H A N I C S, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
Why is the game supposed to become more interesting when the players playing it happen to be white? For me there's no difference if foreigners or koreans are playing I'm here for the games.
I don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun watching Uthermal vs Snute on Catalyst every single game than ever see a korean because of W H I T E P E O P L E, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
Yeah lol the game is the game and shit like interviews and ceremonies is completely separate.
If you find the actual matches more interesting just because the person playing is an English-speaker, you should probably get your head checked out. I swear it's always the same people making this bullshit argument too, I wish staff would just ban their racist ass.
I don’t totally agree with the article but it was a good read and was well written. Thanks for the perspective.
I do agree that we have seen some of our expected top players underperform lately. I think that comes a lot from the difference in mentality for a player who knows they’re an underdog with nothing to lose and a player going into a match pressuring themselves that they SHOULD win, making them play to not lose.
I agree some stability is important to make miracle runs mean something and for pros to also feel there’s actual stability that if they get better they can win & make a living off this.
Where I disagree is that this is a truly troubling trend with just 2 player run at 2 events. I also think that a lot of the types of mistakes you pointed out happen plenty in series with 2 good players and are not that uncharacteristic. Showtime himself tweeted he didn’t feel like he made that many mistakes vs Has apart from the 2 adepts getting in. I think players like Has do create a lot of those kinds of mistakes but what’s different about Austin was he did a much better job of capitalizing on them.
On July 30 2018 20:54 imre wrote: The fun side is that we get 9 possible finalist every WCS event. Serral + the 8 players on the other side of the bracket. As far as Blizzcon is concerned I don't think it can be worse than last years (Neeb got unlucky in my opinion, getting the worst possible group for him) and this time Serral might have a real shot.
edit: to clarify, just because soO made the finals doesn't make him one of the best players at the event. He beat literally one korean to get there. herO, TY, INno, Rogue, and Dark were all better than him at that point imo.
he beat the foreigners other koreans lost to. rogue lost to neeb; soO beat neeb (with his first try). stats and ty lost to special; soO beat special. he won his group unlike TY and rogue which put him in a position to dodge herO and inno in the ro8 and be placed in the korean light part of the bracket. saying he only beat one korean when other koreans lost to foreigners he beat is disingenuous and pure bias. he did play better / less flawed than those other koreans and their general form at the time has nothing to do with how they played at the event itself.
Except Neeb and SpeCial winning their matches were the kind of results that happen 1/5 times. They were upsets for a reason. They weren't considered better players than TY or Rogue, who would win that match maybe 4/5 times and played at a higher level in all their other matches.
If you don't believe me just go back and watch the games. SpeCial played his typical ro32 level against soO and lost. Neeb didn't look that great either. So why is it so impressive that soO beat them?
soO got lucky that he faced mostly opponents who got their by upsets. It doesn't matter that they were foreigners or won suprise matches in the ro16, they simply weren't as good overall as herO, TY, INno, Dark, Rogue etc.
I guess the things that do actually happen have very little significance compared to what Fango thinks should have happened.
On July 30 2018 20:31 Waxangel wrote: Best article of all time?
Jokes aside, this is kind of how I thought about StarCraft II when I was a peak Korean-elitist. This article might resonate with TL.net's forum regulars, but I think 'stop telling people not to have fun' would also be an appropriate reaction XD.
personally i don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun to watch Maru vs Rogue on Catalyst every single game than ever see a foreigner because of M E C H A N I C S, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
Why is the game supposed to become more interesting when the players playing it happen to be white?
On July 30 2018 20:31 Waxangel wrote: Best article of all time?
Jokes aside, this is kind of how I thought about StarCraft II when I was a peak Korean-elitist. This article might resonate with TL.net's forum regulars, but I think 'stop telling people not to have fun' would also be an appropriate reaction XD.
personally i don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun to watch Maru vs Rogue on Catalyst every single game than ever see a foreigner because of M E C H A N I C S, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
Why is the game supposed to become more interesting when the players playing it happen to be white? For me there's no difference if foreigners or koreans are playing I'm here for the games.
I don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun watching Uthermal vs Snute on Catalyst every single game than ever see a korean because of W H I T E P E O P L E, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
you're writing things that i did not say. i did not say "the game is supposed to be more interesting when players are white," nor did i say that i prefer "every game to be foreigners." your insinuations of racism are a total non-sequitur and show that you're either not paying attention to what i'm saying or trying to trollbait.
what i'm saying is that personal connection to players and storylines matter to a great deal of sports fans whether you're watching starcraft, football, baseball or anything else. since foreigners are considered weaker (and are in fact weaker), many people enjoy cheering for them as underdogs, or on a more simple level are able to enjoy watching skillful players even if they're "only" in the top 1% instead of the top 0.1% (or whatever the real numbers are). the concept of cheering for underdogs (less-likely winners) has existed as long as storytelling and sport have existed. if you cannot reconcile this concept without accusing people of racism then i suggest you do some further research, as i don't think it's fair to field such serious accusations simply because i posted that i enjoy watching foreign starcraft. i have watched tournaments on almost every level including bronze, gold, master, GM, foreigner and korean. sometimes they're boring and sometimes they're not.
On July 31 2018 04:02 207aicila wrote: Yeah lol the game is the game and shit like interviews and ceremonies is completely separate.
If you find the actual matches more interesting just because the person playing is an English-speaker, you should probably get your head checked out. I swear it's always the same people making this bullshit argument too, I wish staff would just ban their racist ass.
i have no idea what you are talking about? i have never posted anywhere that "games are more interesting because the players speak english" as i don't think or feel that way at all. you're either confusing me for someone else or just trying to provoke bad faith arguments
it's extremely irritating that i am unable to post an opinion as simple as "people who exclusively enjoy korean league level starcraft are different from me and i can't relate to them" without multiple people trying to reignite an eight-year-old clusterfuck argument about player race which i wasn't referencing or addressing in any way.
On July 30 2018 20:31 Waxangel wrote: Best article of all time?
Jokes aside, this is kind of how I thought about StarCraft II when I was a peak Korean-elitist. This article might resonate with TL.net's forum regulars, but I think 'stop telling people not to have fun' would also be an appropriate reaction XD.
personally i don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun to watch Maru vs Rogue on Catalyst every single game than ever see a foreigner because of M E C H A N I C S, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
Why is the game supposed to become more interesting when the players playing it happen to be white?
Has is white?
Per the rules of WCS we can consider him white enough™
On July 30 2018 20:31 Waxangel wrote: Best article of all time?
Jokes aside, this is kind of how I thought about StarCraft II when I was a peak Korean-elitist. This article might resonate with TL.net's forum regulars, but I think 'stop telling people not to have fun' would also be an appropriate reaction XD.
personally i don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun to watch Maru vs Rogue on Catalyst every single game than ever see a foreigner because of M E C H A N I C S, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
Why is the game supposed to become more interesting when the players playing it happen to be white? For me there's no difference if foreigners or koreans are playing I'm here for the games.
I don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun watching Uthermal vs Snute on Catalyst every single game than ever see a korean because of W H I T E P E O P L E, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
you're writing things that i did not say. i did not say "the game is supposed to be more interesting when players are white," nor did i say that i prefer "every game to be foreigners." your insinuations of racism are a total non-sequitur and show that you're either not paying attention to what i'm saying or trying to trollbait.
what i'm saying is that personal connection to players and storylines matter to a great deal of sports fans whether you're watching starcraft, football, baseball or anything else. since foreigners are considered weaker (and are in fact weaker), many people enjoy cheering for them as underdogs, or on a more simple level are able to enjoy watching skillful players even if they're "only" in the top 1% instead of the top 0.1% (or whatever the real numbers are). the concept of cheering for underdogs (less-likely winners) has existed as long as storytelling and sport have existed. if you cannot reconcile this concept without accusing people of racism then i suggest you do some further research, as i don't think it's fair to field such serious accusations simply because i posted that i enjoy watching foreign starcraft. i have watched tournaments on almost every level including bronze, gold, master, GM, foreigner and korean. sometimes they're boring and sometimes they're not.
On July 31 2018 04:02 207aicila wrote: Yeah lol the game is the game and shit like interviews and ceremonies is completely separate.
If you find the actual matches more interesting just because the person playing is an English-speaker, you should probably get your head checked out. I swear it's always the same people making this bullshit argument too, I wish staff would just ban their racist ass.
i have no idea what you are talking about? i have never posted anywhere that "games are more interesting because the players speak english" as i don't think or feel that way at all. you're either confusing me for someone else or just trying to provoke bad faith arguments
You didn't just say you enjoy foreign starcraft. You said you don't understand why other people don't. "Why do some people prefer watching higher skilled koreans (Maru vs Rogue) over watching foreigners?" - your words.
On July 30 2018 20:31 Waxangel wrote: Best article of all time?
Jokes aside, this is kind of how I thought about StarCraft II when I was a peak Korean-elitist. This article might resonate with TL.net's forum regulars, but I think 'stop telling people not to have fun' would also be an appropriate reaction XD.
personally i don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun to watch Maru vs Rogue on Catalyst every single game than ever see a foreigner because of M E C H A N I C S, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
Why is the game supposed to become more interesting when the players playing it happen to be white? For me there's no difference if foreigners or koreans are playing I'm here for the games.
I don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun watching Uthermal vs Snute on Catalyst every single game than ever see a korean because of W H I T E P E O P L E, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
you're writing things that i did not say. i did not say "the game is supposed to be more interesting when players are white," nor did i say that i prefer "every game to be foreigners." your insinuations of racism are a total non-sequitur and show that you're either not paying attention to what i'm saying or trying to trollbait.
what i'm saying is that personal connection to players and storylines matter to a great deal of sports fans whether you're watching starcraft, football, baseball or anything else. since foreigners are considered weaker (and are in fact weaker), many people enjoy cheering for them as underdogs, or on a more simple level are able to enjoy watching skillful players even if they're "only" in the top 1% instead of the top 0.1% (or whatever the real numbers are). the concept of cheering for underdogs (less-likely winners) has existed as long as storytelling and sport have existed. if you cannot reconcile this concept without accusing people of racism then i suggest you do some further research, as i don't think it's fair to field such serious accusations simply because i posted that i enjoy watching foreign starcraft. i have watched tournaments on almost every level including bronze, gold, master, GM, foreigner and korean. sometimes they're boring and sometimes they're not.
On July 31 2018 04:02 207aicila wrote: Yeah lol the game is the game and shit like interviews and ceremonies is completely separate.
If you find the actual matches more interesting just because the person playing is an English-speaker, you should probably get your head checked out. I swear it's always the same people making this bullshit argument too, I wish staff would just ban their racist ass.
i have no idea what you are talking about? i have never posted anywhere that "games are more interesting because the players speak english" as i don't think or feel that way at all. you're either confusing me for someone else or just trying to provoke bad faith arguments
You didn't just say you enjoy foreign starcraft. You said you don't understand why other people don't. "Why do some people prefer watching higher skilled koreans (Maru vs Rogue) over watching foreigners" - your words.
those are not my words. it's bogglingly dishonest that you are claiming to quote my own words, which are on the previous page of this thread -- one click away -- and you didn't bother to simply copy and paste them as they appear. i mean, damn, dude, they're even in the box where you typed your reply, because my quote is still there. regardless, here are my words since you've misrepresented them:
"i don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun to watch Maru vs Rogue on Catalyst every single game than ever see a foreigner because of M E C H A N I C S"
those words do not state that i "don't understand why some people prefer watching higher skilled koreans," they state that i don't understand why some people exclusively enjoy only the very top level of starcraft 100% of the time. on a more subtle level i was also referencing fans who not only exclusively enjoy korean starcraft but also repeatedly and compulsively make hateful posts indicating that they look down on foreign starcraft and look down on people who watch it or support it. i know that you're a forum regular, so i shouldn't have to explain that to you. that kind of rhetoric is very common here. furthermore, what i said is that i do not personally understand something, which should not even have to be taken as an insult or criticism at all. again, when you read my words as they actually appear, they are quite clear: i stated that i do not personally understand something about how others approach SC2 viewership. can you explain how or why that is racist?
if you genuinely misread my words then i'm willing to drop the subject and call it a misunderstanding, but if you continue to lie about what i've written then i don't even know how to reply to you anymore. i'm still trying to wrap my head around you saying "your words" and then completely misquoting me
edit: since this is quickly becoming a derail, if you want to continue this you should probably PM me. i do not want to ruin a TL article thread with pages and pages of explaining and re-explaining my words
Seems like I misunderstood you. Still the way you phrased it with "only because of M E C H A N I C S" and the "why not watch foreigners instead" afterwards made it seem like foreigners have something that makes them more interesting to watch. Anyway apologies for the accusations.
I understand where you're coming from, but you lose me when you say you want some sort of order and hierarchy in the competitive scene. I think upsets and miracle runs are what make for exciting tournaments (think Jaedong at Blizzcon, or Royal Roaders in the GSL). I agree with Wax that this feels very Korean elitist in the sense that you "want the favorites to win all the time because they're objectively better." To me, that is horrendously boring when the predicted wins win just as predicted. And Serral has been doing that this year, and Neeb did last year, so I'm not even sure your assessment is on point. Likewise, we do have familiar faces in the top 8-16 constantly - Nerchio, Showtime, Special, Scarlett, Snute, Elazer. I also find it quite ironic that you specifically point out Elazer getting slaughtered by Dark in 2016, but fail to mention that he knocked Dark out of the WCS Global Finals the following year, putting up Dark's first lost to a foreigner. I felt like that was pretty noteworthy.
Didn't you leave out the most optimistic interpretation of the situation. Don't you dare to dream? What if the foreigner level has just risen across the board, that koreans are lucky not to face them regularly. Well that would just challenge the status quo of Korea above all in Starcraft a little too much. But hey, GSL vs The World is coming up and I am so willing to be dissapointed.
Totally random question, why does it say in the Liquipedia Bracket for GSL vs The Word that Serral plays Kelazhur in round one and Inno plays Rogue, doesn't that miss the point of the Tourney?
On July 31 2018 08:54 JWD[9] wrote: Didn't you leave out the most optimistic interpretation of the situation. Don't you dare to dream? What if the foreigner level has just risen across the board, that koreans are lucky not to face them regularly. Well that would just challenge the status quo of Korea above all in Starcraft a little too much. But hey, GSL vs The World is coming up and I am so willing to be dissapointed.
Totally random question, why does it say in the Liquipedia Bracket for GSL vs The Word that Serral plays Kelazhur in round one and Inno plays Rogue, doesn't that miss the point of the Tourney?
I don't think foreigner levels have risen to the point of Korean levels, at all.
GSL vs. the World is not seeded foreigner vs Korean. This was discussed on the Pylon show recently I think. I wish they would have done it that way.
Really great article, I think the writer hit the nail on the head; "Its not that Has and Mana has leveled up incredibly in skill, its that most of their opponents under performed". Mana and Has played great, especially Mana but we've come to have such high expectations from many of the top foreigners that we just assume they are bringing their A-game every time. So when they get defeated we more often than not see the greatness of the victor instead of the weakness of the defeated.
I still believe that Manas play was the best I've seen out of foreign protoss players this year though and if he played on the same level I think he could be competitive with the best in korea.
Really looking forward to korea VS the world, hoping for great games!
On July 30 2018 20:31 Waxangel wrote: Best article of all time?
Jokes aside, this is kind of how I thought about StarCraft II when I was a peak Korean-elitist. This article might resonate with TL.net's forum regulars, but I think 'stop telling people not to have fun' would also be an appropriate reaction XD.
personally i don't always understand why to some people it would be more fun to watch Maru vs Rogue on Catalyst every single game than ever see a foreigner because of M E C H A N I C S, but if that's what makes the game fun for them i say more power to them!
Why is the game supposed to become more interesting when the players playing it happen to be white?
Has is white?
Per the rules of WCS we can consider him white enough™
Has is white, Stephano is african and Sioras is both european and australian.
Time was, a bold and interesting article like this would've gotten some kind of reaction out of me. Soularion makes his point and makes it well, don't get me wrong, but for all that this is a good piece of writing, I can't seem to compose a suitably intelligent reply. Just......meh.
On July 31 2018 08:54 JWD[9] wrote: Didn't you leave out the most optimistic interpretation of the situation. Don't you dare to dream? What if the foreigner level has just risen across the board, that koreans are lucky not to face them regularly. Well that would just challenge the status quo of Korea above all in Starcraft a little too much. But hey, GSL vs The World is coming up and I am so willing to be dissapointed.
Totally random question, why does it say in the Liquipedia Bracket for GSL vs The Word that Serral plays Kelazhur in round one and Inno plays Rogue, doesn't that miss the point of the Tourney?
I don't think foreigner levels have risen to the point of Korean levels, at all.
GSL vs. the World is not seeded foreigner vs Korean. This was discussed on the Pylon show recently I think. I wish they would have done it that way.
Yeah, that is the point, it is a far fetched idea. Since Soularion complains in his article that the few foreigners that once were able to somewhat dominate the foreign scene and take even a series here and there against a midtier korean, now are struggling against anybody and everybody. Could of course be less spectacular, and just that the rest of the foreigners got to the level these few foreigners had, while korea improved even more drastically during that time and will still stomp, but what if? Just saying, there is an extremely optimistic way to explain the situation that wasn't considered at all. The real crux is the lack of Competitions, having both, Koreans and Foreigner. One single event won't convince anyone, one foreigner doing well in a korean tourney won't convince anyone (see Showtime 3-0ing Stats and Inno in BTSL), Because all of that can be chalked up to form, luck and inherent randomness of the universe.
edit: And if you argue, yeah, this might have been considered, but due to it's unlikeliness not put down in writing, maybe you just fail to see the real Miracle?
On July 30 2018 20:54 imre wrote: The fun side is that we get 9 possible finalist every WCS event. Serral + the 8 players on the other side of the bracket. As far as Blizzcon is concerned I don't think it can be worse than last years (Neeb got unlucky in my opinion, getting the worst possible group for him) and this time Serral might have a real shot.
edit: to clarify, just because soO made the finals doesn't make him one of the best players at the event. He beat literally one korean to get there. herO, TY, INno, Rogue, and Dark were all better than him at that point imo.
he beat the foreigners other koreans lost to. rogue lost to neeb; soO beat neeb (with his first try). stats and ty lost to special; soO beat special. he won his group unlike TY and rogue which put him in a position to dodge herO and inno in the ro8 and be placed in the korean light part of the bracket. saying he only beat one korean when other koreans lost to foreigners he beat is disingenuous and pure bias. he did play better / less flawed than those other koreans and their general form at the time has nothing to do with how they played at the event itself.
Except Neeb and SpeCial winning their matches were the kind of results that happen 1/5 times. They were upsets for a reason. They weren't considered better players than TY or Rogue, who would win that match maybe 4/5 times and played at a higher level in all their other matches.
If you don't believe me just go back and watch the games. SpeCial played his typical ro32 level against soO and lost. Neeb didn't look that great either. So why is it so impressive that soO beat them?
soO got lucky that he faced mostly opponents who got their by upsets. It doesn't matter that they were foreigners or won suprise matches in the ro16, they simply weren't as good overall as herO, TY, INno, Dark, Rogue etc.
i watched the games and special as well as neeb played better than ty, stats and rogue. then soo played better than neeb and special. you are just riding the same bs argument that those koreans are generally considered better which is absolutely irrelevant ^^ as i said before, ty, stats and rogue lost (deservedly) when soo didnt. that has nothing to do with luck, its just soo playing better than those guys, no matter what you think about who should be rated how.
On July 30 2018 20:54 imre wrote: The fun side is that we get 9 possible finalist every WCS event. Serral + the 8 players on the other side of the bracket. As far as Blizzcon is concerned I don't think it can be worse than last years (Neeb got unlucky in my opinion, getting the worst possible group for him) and this time Serral might have a real shot.
edit: to clarify, just because soO made the finals doesn't make him one of the best players at the event. He beat literally one korean to get there. herO, TY, INno, Rogue, and Dark were all better than him at that point imo.
he beat the foreigners other koreans lost to. rogue lost to neeb; soO beat neeb (with his first try). stats and ty lost to special; soO beat special. he won his group unlike TY and rogue which put him in a position to dodge herO and inno in the ro8 and be placed in the korean light part of the bracket. saying he only beat one korean when other koreans lost to foreigners he beat is disingenuous and pure bias. he did play better / less flawed than those other koreans and their general form at the time has nothing to do with how they played at the event itself.
Except Neeb and SpeCial winning their matches were the kind of results that happen 1/5 times. They were upsets for a reason. They weren't considered better players than TY or Rogue, who would win that match maybe 4/5 times and played at a higher level in all their other matches.
If you don't believe me just go back and watch the games. SpeCial played his typical ro32 level against soO and lost. Neeb didn't look that great either. So why is it so impressive that soO beat them?
soO got lucky that he faced mostly opponents who got their by upsets. It doesn't matter that they were foreigners or won suprise matches in the ro16, they simply weren't as good overall as herO, TY, INno, Dark, Rogue etc.
I guess the things that do actually happen have very little significance compared to what Fango thinks should have happened.
On July 31 2018 08:54 JWD[9] wrote: Didn't you leave out the most optimistic interpretation of the situation. Don't you dare to dream? What if the foreigner level has just risen across the board, that koreans are lucky not to face them regularly. Well that would just challenge the status quo of Korea above all in Starcraft a little too much. But hey, GSL vs The World is coming up and I am so willing to be dissapointed.
Totally random question, why does it say in the Liquipedia Bracket for GSL vs The Word that Serral plays Kelazhur in round one and Inno plays Rogue, doesn't that miss the point of the Tourney?
I don't think foreigner levels have risen to the point of Korean levels, at all.
GSL vs. the World is not seeded foreigner vs Korean. This was discussed on the Pylon show recently I think. I wish they would have done it that way.
Yeah, that is the point, it is a far fetched idea. Since Soularion complains in his article that the few foreigners that once were able to somewhat dominate the foreign scene and take even a series here and there against a midtier korean, now are struggling against anybody and everybody. Could of course be less spectacular, and just that the rest of the foreigners got to the level these few foreigners had, while korea improved even more drastically during that time and will still stomp, but what if? Just saying, there is an extremely optimistic way to explain the situation that wasn't considered at all. The real crux is the lack of Competitions, having both, Koreans and Foreigner. One single event won't convince anyone, one foreigner doing well in a korean tourney won't convince anyone (see Showtime 3-0ing Stats and Inno in BTSL), Because all of that can be chalked up to form, luck and inherent randomness of the universe.
edit: And if you argue, yeah, this might have been considered, but due to it's unlikeliness not put down in writing, maybe you just fail to see the real Miracle?
This is pretty unlikely, just looking at the level of play. You can't look at a series like Kela/Has or Silky/Neeb or Reynor/SpeCial or MaNa/Snute and simplify it to 'the other foreigners caught up!' - that's true, but they caught up to much worse version of the prior top foreigners. Your argument makes sense with sets like MaNa/SpeCial, but most of these are not of that quality.
I don't dislike foreign players, but sometimes I feel lots of casters or article hype can talk them up too much, particularly versus Korean opponents. If they lose, the community gets deflated.
That being said, I must admit I do like players who stray from the norm and do something different. Snute and his swarmhost style, GuMigod going practically mech only in most of HotS and making it work, FanTaSy playing scrappy, bitterly fought games with ballsy coin flips, Has with his dairy factory producing a variety of cheese-based delights, Maru vs Protoss in HotS. $o$ being $o$.
Even if they failed, their gameplay would resonate with the fans and the community consciousness. The successes even more so.
StarCraft II is a game with variance. More so than StarCraft and chess, less so than MtG or poker. People are people and can have good or bad days. Heck, reaching an ideal form for sportsmen is a science, but very few people talk about proper training regimes for reaching a top form for a particular event. And then on top of that each player has their own stylistic and match-up specific idiosyncrasies.
Combine all of that and we can come to conclusion, anyone can beat anyone at the Premier tournaments. This is not a miracle. This is a combination of game variance, player form and play style. You can be just lucky enough to reach a final -- if you were good enough to participate in this tournament in the first place. MtG players call that "spike a tournament"
And then we have the bracket luck. You can talk about consistency when it comes to passing through group stage. Anyone who keeps returning to Ro16 is consistent. But after that Single Elimination phase starts and consistency is thrown out of the window. If you are 2017 Neeb or 2018 Serral and you are just on another level compared to everyone else, you can overcome this. But if you are 2018 Scarlett? You can probably reach finals, but you are in the wrong half of the bracket. If you are 2018 Neeb? Narrow 2-3 loss to ShowTime (who in turn was one adept runby away from getting into the finals).
EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/bird_blue_16.png)
@SoularionGG
Reynor beat Classic in GSL and the went on 3-0 SpeCial in his WCS debut; ![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/WCS2018/Austin/manafansign.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/WCS2018/Valencia/hasinbooth.jpg)
