On January 18 2018 20:28 HsDLTitich wrote: I'm surprised there even are people that agree with CatZ. We (ESL Italy) were blasted because we changed the map pool for an event with a one month's notice, and now people agree with a three day's notice map pool change wtf?!
It's in the nature of some fans to pursue entertainment to the detriment of the professional. I've fallen into that camp many times. It's an okay stance to have, as long as it's within reason. I don't think it's reasonable to change the map pool 3 days before a major tournament, in a manner that's inconsistent with how the tournament circuit has been previously run.
If Blizzard has an angle with this and it's not just: fuck you - my game my rules , I can do whatever the fuck I want, then they really did a poor job with their PR stuff. Had they have said when Leipzig was announced : we want to try something and see how that works they would have had time to get feedback and really decide about it.
I get that I am one person but if Blizzard fucks up the SC2 scene I am never buying a Blizzard game again. I started gaming as a child and never had enough money to buy games. Once I got old enough to get a job the first thing I saved to buy was Brood War, but SC2 was released so I bought that instead. I bought Brood war later and then SC remastered, but I noticed I never played it.
I have not bought any other games, and for the next 15 years or so I don't see why I would do that. I have a job, a family. There's not enough time in the day. I love that I can watch high quality SC2 anytime , and I watch ASL Broodwar too. I organize my week ends around starcraft. I have a monthly budget spent on the streamers I support. I bought the war chest because of the support for the scene and nothing else.
Blizzard wanted to oust Brood war because they didn't have enough control over the scene. They have what they want : kespa is out of Starcraft and I don't think we're better for it but we can make it work.
Now don't fuck it up! Be a professional organisation that cares about your title or create a market for someone else . Your choice Blizzard ! These are not just games anymore ! People lives are impacted !
Well the timing for the new map pool sucks, but there are so many tournaments coming up that they can't do it later. They should've released the new maps 1 week ago or something like that, that was the only solution.
But I definitely disagree with people saying that it's stupid to play on the new maps because the qualifiers were on the old maps. Every tournament should always be on the current ladder maps. If they played this tournament on the old maps my interest would be greatly deminished.
I want to study those games and be able to use the stuff I see in the replays on the ladder. If it's old maps the games seem kinda worthless.
So I definitely don't think they should use the old maps, but they should have released the new maps way earlier.
I've given this some thought and ultimately I draw upon the conclusion that this is a bullshit move by Blizzard if the following is true.
1. There's been no written reservation made by Blizzard or the tournament organizer (DH) that the map pool is subject to change x weeks or x days prior to the tournament.
However if such reservations were made. I'm with Blizzard on this one.
If we look at SC2 and what it is, it is a RTS-game where a lot of things go into what is part of the competition. Map vetoes is one, preparing certain builds is one, blind countering is one, and the list goes on.
If competitors are not given information regarding how forseeable a map change is, and the map pool for the tournament has already been set, this screws with players for reasons they could not account for. As in, the competitor could never factor in if the map pool was going to change and therefore never had to consider that an option when deciding how he/she would ultimately prepare for the tournament.
As an example, if I as a competitor have the information that the map pool is subject to change until the start of the tournament, I'd be taking a calculated risk to base my map vetos on the current pools statistics for each race, tailor specific builds towards that pool and/or neglect to play anything else but the announced maps. That risk could either pay off or not. Still I would be accountable for whatever happends.
So yeah, unless it is clearly communicated by Blizzard and/or the organizer when the tournament information is released, I feel like such a sudden change of the map pool actually creates unjust situations. Some players may have prepared very specific builds against certain races on certain maps, they might even have given their veto process very much thought. While others might have said I don't give a fuck, and tailored their preparations to just refining mechanics and holes in their standard build orders that they'd use regardless of map choice. Whomever will benefit from this becomes a coinflip.
This creates an unfair advantage to the latter half, even though none of them could've known that it would pay off with the information they were given.
Just thinking here that many players probably have to leave earlier in the week to actually get to their destination. Some may not even have a day of practice time when the maps actually make it on ladder. They may be in the air traveling, getting their hotel in order, calming down from their jet lag, exploring the city to make sure they don't get lost, etc etc etc. They shouldn't have to worry about loading up new maps to learn the ins and outs of it.
I'm all for new maps to enter the scene, look at all my accomplishes below, but this is brutal for the players. I wish I had more time to explain my thoughts on it in further depth but unfortunately I need to leave for work, maybe I'll edit / reply later today if this conversation is still going on.
Well, the release of these new maps will reward creativity, adaptability, and thinking on your feet, which is super exciting to watch. This will be different from past tournaments that reward preparation, refinement, and consistency.
I know this is completely new for SC2 players, but hey, so is the $150k first place prize
The least they could have done is tell the players much earlier so they can prepare. SC2 already is greatly diminished as an esport, especially the foreign scene. It's hard to "make it" so to speak and the players put in a ton of work to achieve some results. This move completely disrespects the work they have put in to get where they are.
Why is it that always the foreign scene has to get screwed? If anything like this happened in the middle of GSL, people will be in uproar, but it's okay when it happens to our scene. Give me a break!
This move completely disregards the well being of the players. Totally not cool by Blizzard!
Poor progamers... they have to adapt some new maps. What a terrible fate. Maybe the new maps will make the tournament less stale and somewhat interesting. The ones that adapt the faster will be winners, can't see anything wrong here.
From my perspective, all the changes (including maps) that Blizz has been implementing since a long ago have always been for the better. I just hope that those maps are fun to play on rather than pretentious, like Battle on the Boardwalk, Dasan Station, and (to some extent) Paladino Terminal and Korhal Carnage.
I agree with CatZ on this one, but have one reservation: without testing and play 'in the wild' there is a risk that one or more maps might be very broken and exploitable for one particular match-up. All it takes is for one player to find that flaw and we end of with stale exploitative games and potentially a skew in the play.
This is different to race-favour in maps, which is fine and I'm happy to see discovered during tourneys. I'm talking about totally broken.
Still agree with CatZ but would want assurances that this isn't a risk.
The biggest problem I see here is the lack of adjusting the schedule of ladder seasons. Maybe they should come up with a system to line-up better with their own major tournaments, at least. I mean, if it was some sort of external event or even an IEM, I could somehow understand that there will always be SOME friction, but seeing that happen right before a WCS event is just... Blizzard.
Unless I am mistaken, the maps are on the servers right now, so the pros can still practice them for 8 days not 3 (not on ladder though, but that might not be much of a hurdle for pros (I don't know how pros practice with each other so I might be wrong))
On January 18 2018 20:28 HsDLTitich wrote: I'm surprised there even are people that agree with CatZ. We (ESL Italy) were blasted because we changed the map pool for an event with a one month's notice, and now people agree with a three day's notice map pool change wtf?!
It's in the nature of some fans to pursue entertainment to the detriment of the professional. I've fallen into that camp many times. It's an okay stance to have, as long as it's within reason. I don't think it's reasonable to change the map pool 3 days before a major tournament, in a manner that's inconsistent with how the tournament circuit has been previously run.
I understand the perspective you're trying to explain here, but in this particular scenario it just makes these people seem even more idiotic.
Pursuing entertainment to the detriment of the professional, okay. But where's the fucking entertainment in watching 4 minute cheesefests because nobody had time to learn the map well enough to tailor and refine proper builds for it? Worse still if some abusive strat is found and exploited 2-3 weeks before anyone can find a viable counter, then the tournament becomes fuel for more balance whine and animosity, "what is this shit map pool" etc.
If anyone genuinely believes that good matches can come from this, or even anything good in general, they are even sadder than whoever chose or had to make this decision on Blizzard's end. That's all I can say without getting into flame territory.
I do not understand the problem. Why can not the tournament continue with the old maps even if the ladder maps have changed? I do not think Blizzard will delete the old maps from the server?
On January 18 2018 22:17 MockHamill wrote: I do not understand the problem. Why can not the tournament continue with the old maps even if the ladder maps have changed? I do not think Blizzard will delete the old maps from the server?
WCS is a Blizzard tournament, produced by Dreamhack and IEM. Blizzard call all the shots. And in this case it seems they've decided to give players three days to ladder on new maps.
CatZ is totaly wrong. If he have this problem he is the first who cry. But all time the same people saying is ok the are pros they must easy do this if they are progamer. But fact is CatZ is not a progamer he is streamer and his skill level is medium. About this fact he cant say it is possible lern this maps in 1 weak. My other point is blizzard cant make a tournamentqualifier with maps a,b, and the main tournament is with maps Z,P. Blizzard want be professional but this is unprofessional. I dont have a better example but for me is the same if you switching maps in counter strike. Blizzard dezember was free to release the maps or first January. Advertising say your company stay for esports and professional gaming but with bad actions like this you make it impossible for players to do the jobs.
EPT
