Blizzard have released four new maps to be introduced in 2018 Season 1. However, the date, set at January 23rd, has caused some concerns among professional players — the patch date is set only three days before WCS Leipzig begins.
The qualifiers for Leipzig were played on the current map pool, but if the patch goes through as planned, players would be forced to play on new maps only three days after their official release. For now, they are available only in Melee modes — for testing. In their official post, Blizzard ask players for feedback on maps, perhaps indicating there might yet be changes to them before they are introduced to the ladder.
In turn, Blizzard have stated that Abyssal Reef, Odyssey, Ascension to Aiur and Battle of the Boardwalk would be removed. The first three have been mainstays in tournaments for months, so a sudden switch away from arguably the most standard maps might hit players especially hard.
As a result, a number of players have already expressed their frustration towards the decision.
CatZ, in turn, has written a response on Reddit defending the decision. Blizzard have not responded to the criticism thus far.
I have to agree with CatZ here. Everyone has the same amount of time to prepare. In addition, as Optimus pointed out, progamers want to do this professionally so they have to put in work anyway, at least a strong 8 hours a day. This being LotV and faster games, most of them will be prepared once the tournament starts, the strats don't change, it's not as if they have to determine a whole new meta.
On January 18 2018 18:08 Timmay wrote: Adapting to new maps is a skill that matters in Starcraft. I totally agree with CatZ here.
At the cost of voiding a lot of practice and preparation skills. From a viewer's standpoint it's not great gameplay either to see players randomly losing games since they don't know the proxy locations on the map. It's also a good way of ensuring that almost the entire tournament will be played on Catalyst/Blackpink/Neon Violet thus reducing the map diversity seen.
It's all a question of temperament. Some people enjoy chaotic nonsense where players are fumbling in the dark trying to figure everything out. Then again, some of us enjoy it when the dust has settled a little bit more.
That's from a spectator's point of view. As for the competitive players, I think most of them prefer having ample time to learn the ins and outs of new maps (thats not even considering the possibility of the new maps being awful).
On January 18 2018 18:19 Mun_Su wrote: What if some map reveal themselves as VERY unbalance in the hands of pro players... it could easily screw up a tournament
Unless a map is terrible, you won't know map balance until it is used in tournaments.
On January 18 2018 18:29 Dingodile wrote: I don't think this element is good when a player won a map because he knows the fresh map better.
That's exactly what I want to see. Players should be rewarded for better preparation instead of using the same builds they have been using for months.
On January 18 2018 18:19 Mun_Su wrote: What if some map reveal themselves as VERY unbalance in the hands of pro players... it could easily screw up a tournament
Unless a map is terrible, you won't know map balance until it is used in tournaments.
On January 18 2018 18:29 Dingodile wrote: I don't think this element is good when a player won a map because he knows the fresh map better.
That's exactly what I want to see. Players should be rewarded for better preparation instead of using the same builds they have been using for months.
better preperation aka doing a half arsed build on a map they couldn't practice on? games on new maps are very often trainwrecks, precisely because it takes time to figure out how to execute builds on them. You can't just load up a new map and say "fuck yeah dude ive got the sickest build here, lemme show u". It takes time to create and perfect a build. That's also all disregarding the fact that SC has a history of being a game of perfectonism in skill, not doing 1 off cheeses on Moonlight Madness
On January 18 2018 18:08 Timmay wrote: Adapting to new maps is a skill that matters in Starcraft. I totally agree with CatZ here.
What if some map reveal themselves as VERY unbalance in the hands of pro players... it could easily screw up a tournament
All of that could have been avoided easily with releasing the new map pool during the off season '--
Imbalance is the one thing I'm not worried about. It takes longer than the pros have to figure out the maps optimally to exploit things.
I feel like it takes longer for people to adapt to maps than to learn where to exploit things. Some maps have been quite unbalanced, and it takes time for people to learn how to defend on those maps. This change also favours people who use allins and proxies.
You are right that people need time to exploit a map, but conversely, they need time to learn to defend those exploits, and I feel like the counters to such strategies are usually found after those strategies occur.
I'd have to say for once I completely disagree with CatZ's point of view here. There are many parts in his write up that are just plain wrong in retrospect to some of the best T pushes ever seen due directly to map pool, or one off players in proleague.
But, in short, I think it's quite clear that most people are opposed to this. With that being a basic starting point, I think it is quite clear that regardless of ur stance Blizzard should at least try to communicate more with the professional players.... as literally every other eSport company already does (at least some variant of "more" communication than blizzard).
3 days prep time for a new map pool is pretty unreasonable, given what the established standards for StarCraft II tournaments have been historically. It's also wholly inconsistent with what kind of expectations WCS has set in the past (2017 had major WCS circuit events come at the end of a ladder season). And given the kind of players/skills BlizzCon tends to reward, it's very strange to have one of the steps to BlizzCon be run in such a divergent manner.
Yeah, it's the same for everyone, but I don't see why they should do it. There's usually never map changes that close to big tournaments. Why start now?
Maps that make it that far are usually not broken in certain matchups, but you never know how a map plays out until it's been used a while. It might make some games more wonky, but I prefer the players having been given ample time to learn the new maps before being used in major events. Leipzig is one of 4-5 premier tournaments and I think it deserves better circumstances than new maps that close to the tournament.
I'm surprised there even are people that agree with CatZ. We (ESL Italy) were blasted because we changed the map pool for an event with a one month's notice, and now people agree with a three day's notice map pool change wtf?!
On January 18 2018 20:28 HsDLTitich wrote: I'm surprised there even are people that agree with CatZ. We (ESL Italy) were blasted because we changed the map pool for an event with a one month's notice, and now people agree with a three day's notice map pool change wtf?!
It's in the nature of some fans to pursue entertainment to the detriment of the professional. I've fallen into that camp many times. It's an okay stance to have, as long as it's within reason. I don't think it's reasonable to change the map pool 3 days before a major tournament, in a manner that's inconsistent with how the tournament circuit has been previously run.
If Blizzard has an angle with this and it's not just: fuck you - my game my rules , I can do whatever the fuck I want, then they really did a poor job with their PR stuff. Had they have said when Leipzig was announced : we want to try something and see how that works they would have had time to get feedback and really decide about it.
I get that I am one person but if Blizzard fucks up the SC2 scene I am never buying a Blizzard game again. I started gaming as a child and never had enough money to buy games. Once I got old enough to get a job the first thing I saved to buy was Brood War, but SC2 was released so I bought that instead. I bought Brood war later and then SC remastered, but I noticed I never played it.
I have not bought any other games, and for the next 15 years or so I don't see why I would do that. I have a job, a family. There's not enough time in the day. I love that I can watch high quality SC2 anytime , and I watch ASL Broodwar too. I organize my week ends around starcraft. I have a monthly budget spent on the streamers I support. I bought the war chest because of the support for the scene and nothing else.
Blizzard wanted to oust Brood war because they didn't have enough control over the scene. They have what they want : kespa is out of Starcraft and I don't think we're better for it but we can make it work.
Now don't fuck it up! Be a professional organisation that cares about your title or create a market for someone else . Your choice Blizzard ! These are not just games anymore ! People lives are impacted !
Well the timing for the new map pool sucks, but there are so many tournaments coming up that they can't do it later. They should've released the new maps 1 week ago or something like that, that was the only solution.
But I definitely disagree with people saying that it's stupid to play on the new maps because the qualifiers were on the old maps. Every tournament should always be on the current ladder maps. If they played this tournament on the old maps my interest would be greatly deminished.
I want to study those games and be able to use the stuff I see in the replays on the ladder. If it's old maps the games seem kinda worthless.
So I definitely don't think they should use the old maps, but they should have released the new maps way earlier.
I've given this some thought and ultimately I draw upon the conclusion that this is a bullshit move by Blizzard if the following is true.
1. There's been no written reservation made by Blizzard or the tournament organizer (DH) that the map pool is subject to change x weeks or x days prior to the tournament.
However if such reservations were made. I'm with Blizzard on this one.
If we look at SC2 and what it is, it is a RTS-game where a lot of things go into what is part of the competition. Map vetoes is one, preparing certain builds is one, blind countering is one, and the list goes on.
If competitors are not given information regarding how forseeable a map change is, and the map pool for the tournament has already been set, this screws with players for reasons they could not account for. As in, the competitor could never factor in if the map pool was going to change and therefore never had to consider that an option when deciding how he/she would ultimately prepare for the tournament.
As an example, if I as a competitor have the information that the map pool is subject to change until the start of the tournament, I'd be taking a calculated risk to base my map vetos on the current pools statistics for each race, tailor specific builds towards that pool and/or neglect to play anything else but the announced maps. That risk could either pay off or not. Still I would be accountable for whatever happends.
So yeah, unless it is clearly communicated by Blizzard and/or the organizer when the tournament information is released, I feel like such a sudden change of the map pool actually creates unjust situations. Some players may have prepared very specific builds against certain races on certain maps, they might even have given their veto process very much thought. While others might have said I don't give a fuck, and tailored their preparations to just refining mechanics and holes in their standard build orders that they'd use regardless of map choice. Whomever will benefit from this becomes a coinflip.
This creates an unfair advantage to the latter half, even though none of them could've known that it would pay off with the information they were given.
Just thinking here that many players probably have to leave earlier in the week to actually get to their destination. Some may not even have a day of practice time when the maps actually make it on ladder. They may be in the air traveling, getting their hotel in order, calming down from their jet lag, exploring the city to make sure they don't get lost, etc etc etc. They shouldn't have to worry about loading up new maps to learn the ins and outs of it.
I'm all for new maps to enter the scene, look at all my accomplishes below, but this is brutal for the players. I wish I had more time to explain my thoughts on it in further depth but unfortunately I need to leave for work, maybe I'll edit / reply later today if this conversation is still going on.
Well, the release of these new maps will reward creativity, adaptability, and thinking on your feet, which is super exciting to watch. This will be different from past tournaments that reward preparation, refinement, and consistency.
I know this is completely new for SC2 players, but hey, so is the $150k first place prize
The least they could have done is tell the players much earlier so they can prepare. SC2 already is greatly diminished as an esport, especially the foreign scene. It's hard to "make it" so to speak and the players put in a ton of work to achieve some results. This move completely disrespects the work they have put in to get where they are.
Why is it that always the foreign scene has to get screwed? If anything like this happened in the middle of GSL, people will be in uproar, but it's okay when it happens to our scene. Give me a break!
This move completely disregards the well being of the players. Totally not cool by Blizzard!
Poor progamers... they have to adapt some new maps. What a terrible fate. Maybe the new maps will make the tournament less stale and somewhat interesting. The ones that adapt the faster will be winners, can't see anything wrong here.
From my perspective, all the changes (including maps) that Blizz has been implementing since a long ago have always been for the better. I just hope that those maps are fun to play on rather than pretentious, like Battle on the Boardwalk, Dasan Station, and (to some extent) Paladino Terminal and Korhal Carnage.
I agree with CatZ on this one, but have one reservation: without testing and play 'in the wild' there is a risk that one or more maps might be very broken and exploitable for one particular match-up. All it takes is for one player to find that flaw and we end of with stale exploitative games and potentially a skew in the play.
This is different to race-favour in maps, which is fine and I'm happy to see discovered during tourneys. I'm talking about totally broken.
Still agree with CatZ but would want assurances that this isn't a risk.
The biggest problem I see here is the lack of adjusting the schedule of ladder seasons. Maybe they should come up with a system to line-up better with their own major tournaments, at least. I mean, if it was some sort of external event or even an IEM, I could somehow understand that there will always be SOME friction, but seeing that happen right before a WCS event is just... Blizzard.
Unless I am mistaken, the maps are on the servers right now, so the pros can still practice them for 8 days not 3 (not on ladder though, but that might not be much of a hurdle for pros (I don't know how pros practice with each other so I might be wrong))
On January 18 2018 20:28 HsDLTitich wrote: I'm surprised there even are people that agree with CatZ. We (ESL Italy) were blasted because we changed the map pool for an event with a one month's notice, and now people agree with a three day's notice map pool change wtf?!
It's in the nature of some fans to pursue entertainment to the detriment of the professional. I've fallen into that camp many times. It's an okay stance to have, as long as it's within reason. I don't think it's reasonable to change the map pool 3 days before a major tournament, in a manner that's inconsistent with how the tournament circuit has been previously run.
I understand the perspective you're trying to explain here, but in this particular scenario it just makes these people seem even more idiotic.
Pursuing entertainment to the detriment of the professional, okay. But where's the fucking entertainment in watching 4 minute cheesefests because nobody had time to learn the map well enough to tailor and refine proper builds for it? Worse still if some abusive strat is found and exploited 2-3 weeks before anyone can find a viable counter, then the tournament becomes fuel for more balance whine and animosity, "what is this shit map pool" etc.
If anyone genuinely believes that good matches can come from this, or even anything good in general, they are even sadder than whoever chose or had to make this decision on Blizzard's end. That's all I can say without getting into flame territory.
I do not understand the problem. Why can not the tournament continue with the old maps even if the ladder maps have changed? I do not think Blizzard will delete the old maps from the server?
On January 18 2018 22:17 MockHamill wrote: I do not understand the problem. Why can not the tournament continue with the old maps even if the ladder maps have changed? I do not think Blizzard will delete the old maps from the server?
WCS is a Blizzard tournament, produced by Dreamhack and IEM. Blizzard call all the shots. And in this case it seems they've decided to give players three days to ladder on new maps.
CatZ is totaly wrong. If he have this problem he is the first who cry. But all time the same people saying is ok the are pros they must easy do this if they are progamer. But fact is CatZ is not a progamer he is streamer and his skill level is medium. About this fact he cant say it is possible lern this maps in 1 weak. My other point is blizzard cant make a tournamentqualifier with maps a,b, and the main tournament is with maps Z,P. Blizzard want be professional but this is unprofessional. I dont have a better example but for me is the same if you switching maps in counter strike. Blizzard dezember was free to release the maps or first January. Advertising say your company stay for esports and professional gaming but with bad actions like this you make it impossible for players to do the jobs.
As a viewer i find this really interesting, as it won't be some preparation with making thousands games but preparing the map (trying to establish where the ovie should pass, what's the possible build the other may do, etc..)
It Would be more thinking/strategy, than only making games and use muscle memory.
They should just play the tournament with old maps. Then they would only lose 3 days of ladder practice. Personally I really want new maps in ladder but I understand pro players getting frustrated.
On January 18 2018 22:32 tAlionsc2 wrote: why are sc2 players are always so whiny ... its equal oppurtunity for everybody
It's not. This move is way more favorable for cheesy players, than refined macro players. In the end, the quality of games will suffer, as we will be watching what will amount to players trying to figure out those maps on the fly.
On January 18 2018 22:32 tAlionsc2 wrote: why are sc2 players are always so whiny ... its equal oppurtunity for everybody
It's not. This move is way more favorable for cheesy players, than refined macro players. In the end, the quality of games will suffer, as we will be watching what will amount to players trying to figure out those maps on the fly.
I predict very short games due to this.
On the fly means ... 8 days. By your logic using old maps is more favorable for the "refined macro players" then. Why are the "refined macro players" more important than the "cheesy players" ?
I agree that not being able to copy the best builds from the koreans is frustrating... Now they will have to figure some builds out on their own. God forbid. I on the other hand am happy, because I will probably not watch the same builds every single game.
Hm. I play this game myself, so i am not only a spectator for spectator reasons. I am kinda intrigued to see ProPlayers approaches to a new map pool. The old maps feel...old at this point.
I absolutely understand that this is a dick move from Blizz towards the players.
As a viewer I prefer the fresh maps, and if Optimus wants to be a professional he should understand that entertainment value is important in making this profession viable.
On January 18 2018 23:01 JWD[9] wrote: Hm. I play this game myself, so i am not only a spectator for spectator reasons. I am kinda intrigued to see ProPlayers approaches to a new map pool. The old maps feel...old at this point.
I absolutely understand that this is a dick move from Blizz towards the players.
As a viewer I prefer the fresh maps, and if Optimus wants to be a professional he should understand that entertainment value is important in making this profession viable.
yeah, but is this map decision really a reasonable compromise point between proplayer comfort and fan entertainment?
On January 18 2018 23:01 JWD[9] wrote: Hm. I play this game myself, so i am not only a spectator for spectator reasons. I am kinda intrigued to see ProPlayers approaches to a new map pool. The old maps feel...old at this point.
I absolutely understand that this is a dick move from Blizz towards the players.
As a viewer I prefer the fresh maps, and if Optimus wants to be a professional he should understand that entertainment value is important in making this profession viable.
yeah, but is this map decision really a reasonable compromise point between proplayer comfort and fan entertainment?
Absolutely not. Fans get the better end of the deal. Just wanted to point out that Optimus's argument cuts both ways, which makes it very weak for both standpoints.
On January 18 2018 23:47 Lightrush wrote: Is anybody getting to play on these new maps before anyone else can ? If not then I fail to see the problem.
Depending on if you see adapting to new maps quickly a skill that's part of competition. In an extreme example, what if blizzard make everyone run 5 miles before the match? Technically it is fair as everyone has to do it, but it is testing a skill that has nothing to do with the match.
The map is changed for everyone so how is this unfair? Blizz has gotten much better at making maps without severe imbalances. The argument of "there's not enough time to practice" is bs: Two players could have a month, one practices 60% of the time the other 40% because he has other commitments, ok you made your choice.
adapting to new maps is a skill related to the game an competition, it's just being forced on players with a better alternative here.
i'm interested in seeing what they do and seeing styles shine through. kind of boring to see someone collect paychecks off superior macro play sometimes.
Yeah it's shitty, yeah it's something that should be barred off in the future, yeah it's something that shouldn't have happened in the first place, but we can still make the most out of a bad situation.
On January 18 2018 23:47 Lightrush wrote: Is anybody getting to play on these new maps before anyone else can ? If not then I fail to see the problem.
Depending on if you see adapting to new maps quickly a skill that's part of competition. In an extreme example, what if blizzard make everyone run 5 miles before the match? Technically it is fair as everyone has to do it, but it is testing a skill that has nothing to do with the match.
Because forging strategies has nothing to do with real time strategy game...
On January 18 2018 23:47 Lightrush wrote: Is anybody getting to play on these new maps before anyone else can ? If not then I fail to see the problem.
Depending on if you see adapting to new maps quickly a skill that's part of competition. In an extreme example, what if blizzard make everyone run 5 miles before the match? Technically it is fair as everyone has to do it, but it is testing a skill that has nothing to do with the match.
mmm That logic isn't good. What's the definition of quickly? You have a year to quickly learn the map. You have a month to quickly learn the map.
Learning the map in a certain amount of time is part of the competition.
The biggest problem as always is communication. Blizzard and DH didn't tell any of the pros which maps would be used until they randomly got asked on Twitter. It might have been possible that the pros showed up at the event and practiced the wrong maps for nothing.
I guess it screws most of all protoss players, as they need to find new walls for these new maps before they can find map related strategies.
I have a feeling that int this WCS we'll see way more cheese then in a regular WCS event. There is nothing wrong with cheese, as long as in the right proportion (one time in a series, say).
To people agreeing / disagreeing with my stance, understand first that the context of my reddit response was the opposite / initial prevailing sentiment of that reddit thread which was "There is no reason / logic to do this" or "This is bad". Please don't get me wrong in thinking that I think this is inherently "good", either.
The intend / point of my post was simply to provide perspective and highlight some pros and cons of the situation, rather than working under the assumption that there is no positive side to this and jumping on the hate train. I think it's rather ignorant to brand this situation as strictly bad. Evidence of that is this thread in-itself, many people myself included are excited to watch players perform under these circumstances. I saw some interesting points made here too, on how this rewards adaptability or how it may bring about a wider variety of strategies.
I think that it'll even be fun to listen to the more analytical casters think and talk about potential on these maps based on their features. At the very least this is without a doubt generating discussion and anticipation around the tournament.
On January 18 2018 21:35 Deleuze wrote: I agree with CatZ on this one, but have one reservation: without testing and play 'in the wild' there is a risk that one or more maps might be very broken and exploitable for one particular match-up. All it takes is for one player to find that flaw and we end of with stale exploitative games and potentially a skew in the play.
This is different to race-favour in maps, which is fine and I'm happy to see discovered during tourneys. I'm talking about totally broken.
Still agree with CatZ but would want assurances that this isn't a risk.
That 'risk' always exists though, how often do maps get changed? While it's not unprecedented, IF maps ever get "fixed" it is usually after tournaments on them have occurred on them anyway. The bottom line is that players should recognize what features make a map good or bad for certain styles / matchups / situations / units. For example if there is a spot for a tank to siege some mineral line from outside, it should be apparent. If there is too much airspace where liberators an be troublesome, it should / will be apparent. Lets say 1 of the maps ends up having 20% winrate in TvP for whatever reason / exploits, lets say you are the Terran player, and fail to identify the map is ridiculously protoss favored - that DOES NOT mean that every other terran player at the tournament will make the same mistake or will be equally blind to the situation.
If all it takes is for one player to "find a flaw" how come no one else can also identify it and avoid / abuse that same flaw? Why shouldn't the player who thought about something the most or realized something before everyone else not be rewarded? The rules of the game, the ranges of units, etc don't change with the new map pool. Outside of a straight up BUG, there isn't something that should be only available for only 1 person to "discover". But for the sake of this exercise, what is your worst case scenario? getting your mind blown by someone doing or abusing something no one else thought of? Sign me up. Plus there's vetoes anyway, so lets say X player "abuses" a map in group stages, his next opponent may / should have an idea of what he did and either avoid it via veto or challenge it if he thinks he can beat it by letting the map go through, even more fun.
Such map pool change does not give all players equal opportunity to practice, simply because other events are taking place like IEM Katowice qualifiers. The best players who have a chance to qualify will have to stick with the old map pool in practice. For many players there will be a lot of downtime due to travel to Leipzig and/or PyeongChang. It will also give a slight advantage to some players (ex. Koreans) at IEM PyeongChang as they will have several days more to prepare..
It's important to have a rotating map pool, but the timing here seems a little risky. At least we know which maps will be added so that pros will have the opportunity to begin practicing on them before the patch date if they want, though it's unfortunate that they won't have much ladder practice on them before the tournament. IMO, 3 days is too short of a time period.
The biggest problem as always is communication. Blizzard and DH didn't tell any of the pros which maps would be used until they randomly got asked on Twitter. It might have been possible that the pros showed up at the event and practiced the wrong maps for nothing.
I feel like this deserves to be in the OP, perhaps even moreso than the other tweets.
I agree that they should have announced this earlier, but I also strongly disagree with the whole "pro players are getting screwed over more and more every year" thing. Prize pools and tournament opportunities have only gone up. The balance team has started to actually care about the game again. I'm not sure what Optimus is talking about at this point.
A new map in a tournament is not inherently a bad thing. 4 maps, however is probably too many.
If nothing else, 4 maps forces players to using their vetoes so that the majority of the games in the tournament are played on a very small number of maps. That sucks for the players, that sucks for the audience.
1-2 new maps in a tournament. I'm all for it. 4 maps? Too many.
There's a reason why HGC (thats the Heroes of the Storm equivalent to Starcraft's WCS) always plays a patch or two behind so that new potentially OP heroes cant come through and wreck the pro scene. Maps in Starcraft are just as important. Introduce a map that has a noticeable balance flaw that isn't corrected before a tournament and you end up possibly ruining the whole tournament.
Daedalus Point and Yeonsu were two extreme examples of that.
I think introducing new maps rapid-fire like this, in general, is okay. I largely agree with CatZ. This particular instance seems problematic though. For a lot of the players, long travel times and preparations are a thing they have to focus on, before they get to even think about playing a practice game. A 2-week period would be quite a bit better, since it would largely buffer out that difference. If it's going to be short notice, it needs to be equally short for everyone, and if some players have to travel to make it, it's shorter for them.
So I guess set the tourney in New Zealand. Equally long travel time for everyone. :p
A problem with it is that there are IEM qualifiers on the old maps going on till 2 days to the WCS event. So players who want to participate in the IEM qualifiers won't have the time to practice on the new maps. Which is why making this WCS event played on the new maps is quite a bad idea. Players must choose whether they want to prepare for the WCS event or the IEM qualifiers. And I think that many would like to participate in both (especially the better players of them)
If Bly wins with some random 4 minutes abusive bullshit I am gonna be pissed at Blizzard tbh. This could have been handled better. A 400k tournament with subpar games because of the new map pool is not doing anybody any good. Hope they can find a way to fix this. Or maybe I am wrong and we are going to see great games as some people posting here are expecting.
Im split here, on the one side i think playing on new Maps is absolutely right, but on the other communication and announcement of the tounaments and maps is terribly handled, also im sure the releasedate of the maps could at least have been made not immediately before an event.
Blizzard seriously has no idea how to run its esports division does it? This is why I've lost interest in WCS and just watch GSL and CS:GO instead. At least they know how to run tournaments, know how to bring in new players, and run the game.
releasing the new map pool NOW is the only solution. Players would have more of a chance to practice on them & Blizzard still gets the new maps out.. win win
releasing the new map pool NOW is the only solution. Players would have more of a chance to practice on them & Blizzard still gets the new maps out.. win win
No, releasing them NOW is exactly the problem. They should be released (at least for tournament usage) after IEM PyeongChang.
No reason to be mad about it, it is just unreasonable from a competition point of view. Results will be more random. Perhaps it is better for viewers, but with huge disrespect for players preparation.
Tournament announced with 1 month's notice: ✓ Scheduled a few days after IEM Katowice qualifiers, giving players barely any time to get to the venue: ✓ Mess up qualifier brackets: ✓ Tournament on maps that people have only played a few times, if ever: ✓ This might be one of the worst run SC2 tournaments in recent memory. The fact that this is a WCS Championship event shows that Blizzard have realized they can put in minimum effort because there's nothing players can do about it; they have to play in these conditions or else there's no chance to qualify for Blizzcon.
i like how there wasn't even a thread to discuss the new maps, instead we've just gone straight to complaining about them
Its is not a problem of whether maps are good or bad, but rather whether players are able to figure out their strategies and timings down to 1 second essentially not being able to play them before the tournament.
On January 19 2018 06:06 Solar424 wrote: Tournament announced with 1 month's notice: ✓ Scheduled a few days after IEM Katowice qualifiers, giving players barely any time to get to the venue: ✓ Mess up qualifier brackets: ✓ Tournament on maps that people have only played a few times, if ever: ✓ This might be one of the worst run SC2 tournaments in recent memory. The fact that this is a WCS Championship event shows that Blizzard have realized they can put in minimum effort because there's nothing players can do about it; they have to play in these conditions or else there's no chance to qualify for Blizzcon.
Blizzard messed up for sure, but you realize that at least one of these wasn't Blizzard's fault.
The qualifier bracket mix up was due to Dreamhack.
A little late to the party, but here's my hastily typed wall of text anyway. Sorry for any typos as always.
"It is best for maps to be tested in tournament play before testing them in ladder play." Absolutely wrong. It is best, after testing changes in a small, closed and controlled environment by the designers, to test things in the wild (public ladder) before moving those changes to tournament play. If you decide on any change, then test the change yourself, the next best step to test how competitive the change will be is to have it tested on ladder before pushing it into competitions where players will be competing for real money.
Look at the majority of other successful esports for comparison, as mentioned by others in this thread. Pushing the changes out this soon before a tournament starts, requiring players to suddenly need to practice for both the old set of changes and the new set of changes for the same tournament and on short notice is the opposite of what has been proven to work, and is known to cause small and large issues.
You can beat around the bush all you want, but the possible upsides are massively outweighed by everything else. And even if later on it turns out to work fine or even great, it just isn't a smart decision.
Potential upsides of pushing out the changes in this manner: - The changes prove to make the game more competitive overall. (Good for players in the tournament.) - The changes prove to make the game more fun for spectators. (Depends on a lot of factors.) - Competitors welcome changes on short notice. (This didn't happen except for, um, two players? Three?) - Other players and spectators welcome changes on short notice. (Also didn't really happen.)
Potential downsides of pushing out the changes in this manner: - You piss off your competitors by adding new variables to the game on short notice. (This happened for the most part.) - You piss off your competitors by adding to the growing pile of bullshit surrounding WCS. (This also happened. No matter who's at fault for making the changes in the way that they have or who was at fault for other nonsense, Blizzard and tournament organizers should be aware of these things and should be expected to make decisions accordingly so similar things stop happening.) - You piss off your spectators by adding to the growing pile of bullshit surrounding WCS. (This also happened.) - The changes make the tournament less competitive overall. (Bad for players in the tournament.) - The changes prove to make the game less fun for spectators. (Players veto new maps, leaving only a few to play on, or poor games are shown on the new maps. Depends on a lot of factors.)
Other garbage: "It's fair for everyone since everyone is affected equally." Possibly true in theory, but false in practice. Travel, etc. mentioned by others in this thread. "Blizzard and/or tournament organizers are the ones keeping the game and the competitive scene "alive", they are putting in the money so they can do whatever they want." Flat out wrong. It's the players, the competitors, the spectators; this community is what is keeping the game alive more than anything else. This proves again that communication is an issue lately and, regardless of how it all turns out during the event, it needs to be addressed. I don't expect things to fix themselves overnight, but dude for crying out loud it's only January and I'm tired of seeing this kind of news. WCS Rules and prize pools were updated. Cool but it doesn't fix all the other problems.
The way I kept thinking about it last night (not exact, but whatever): + Show Spoiler +
It's like if sprinters were told that a week before their next race the standard material on the track was being replaced by a new material that has been untested with the public, and that the track will only be open a few days before race day. All after having to reschedule multiple times already just to make it to the track by race day.
On January 19 2018 11:30 pvsnp wrote: Blizzard pushing new maps on such short notice is fair by definition, in that every player has equal time to prepare on the new maps.
That doesn't mean it is the correct move, though.
How often has this to be made clear: it's not fair by definition because: - the players who already played custom games on those maps have an unforeseen advantage - players with tight schedule (planned before the change was announced) can't prepare as much on these maps - players with longer travel distances can't prepare as much - the possibility of discovering small advantageous tweaks is massively random because it depends highly on what your opponent does if you detect such a thing. So, with a short time of preparation, detecting such an advantage is quite big without the player being actually somehow more clever than the others - it's just luck then.
On January 19 2018 11:30 pvsnp wrote: Blizzard pushing new maps on such short notice is fair by definition, in that every player has equal time to prepare on the new maps.
That doesn't mean it is the correct move, though.
How often has this to be made clear: it's not fair by definition because: - the players who already played custom games on those maps have an unforeseen advantage - players with tight schedule (planned before the change was announced) can't prepare as much on these maps - players with longer travel distances can't prepare as much - the possibility of discovering small advantageous tweaks is massively random because it depends highly on what your opponent does if you detect such a thing. So, with a short time of preparation, detecting such an advantage is quite big without the player being actually somehow more clever than the others - it's just luck then.
Everyone always has their own circumstances. Even without a map pool change would you call things unfair because one player had a more open schedule than another and got more practice done? And random luck is the fairest of things.
This change is applied by Dreamhack and Blizzard without favouritism or discrimination towards any particular player, and so it's 'fair'. It's not 'even' and it's not 'good', but it's 'fair'.
On January 19 2018 11:30 pvsnp wrote: Blizzard pushing new maps on such short notice is fair by definition, in that every player has equal time to prepare on the new maps.
That doesn't mean it is the correct move, though.
How often has this to be made clear: it's not fair by definition because: - the players who already played custom games on those maps have an unforeseen advantage - players with tight schedule (planned before the change was announced) can't prepare as much on these maps - players with longer travel distances can't prepare as much - the possibility of discovering small advantageous tweaks is massively random because it depends highly on what your opponent does if you detect such a thing. So, with a short time of preparation, detecting such an advantage is quite big without the player being actually somehow more clever than the others - it's just luck then.
Everyone always has their own circumstances. Even without a map pool change would you call things unfair because one player had a more open schedule than another and got more practice done? And random luck is the fairest of things.
This change is applied by Dreamhack and Blizzard without favouritism or discrimination towards any particular player, and so it's 'fair'. It's not 'even' and it's not 'good', but it's 'fair'.
I strongly disagree The short amount of time is, what makes all these factors unfair. The differences in schedule and travel time get more irrelevant the more time is given for preparation. Two blocked days due to schedule aren't a big problem if you can prepare three weeks. But if you can only prepare 3 days, then locals will be able to prepare three times more than you. Also randomness equals out over time: if some people roll a dice 10 times, their results will alter heavily. Let them roll the dice 1000 times and their results will get quite even. Let's assume now, that after every roll they have to run 100 metres but have to wait some seconds before they can roll the dice again according to their last dice roll. Probably you'd agree that the scenario with 1000 dice-rolls would be much fairer.
On January 19 2018 11:30 pvsnp wrote: Blizzard pushing new maps on such short notice is fair by definition, in that every player has equal time to prepare on the new maps.
That doesn't mean it is the correct move, though.
How often has this to be made clear: it's not fair by definition because: - the players who already played custom games on those maps have an unforeseen advantage - players with tight schedule (planned before the change was announced) can't prepare as much on these maps - players with longer travel distances can't prepare as much - the possibility of discovering small advantageous tweaks is massively random because it depends highly on what your opponent does if you detect such a thing. So, with a short time of preparation, detecting such an advantage is quite big without the player being actually somehow more clever than the others - it's just luck then.
Everyone always has their own circumstances. Even without a map pool change would you call things unfair because one player had a more open schedule than another and got more practice done? And random luck is the fairest of things.
This change is applied by Dreamhack and Blizzard without favouritism or discrimination towards any particular player, and so it's 'fair'. It's not 'even' and it's not 'good', but it's 'fair'.
The majority of your reasoning ignores the majority of the context surrounding the change and you also make the claim that "random luck is fair" which isn't a good thing for competition nor a good thing for spectatorship, so I'm gonna call bullshit again on the "it's fair" stance.
Everyone always has their own circumstances. Even without a map pool change would you call things unfair because one player had a more open schedule than another and got more practice done? And random luck is the fairest of things.
This change is applied by Dreamhack and Blizzard without favouritism or discrimination towards any particular player, and so it's 'fair'. It's not 'even' and it's not 'good', but it's 'fair'.
Now lets look at the ambitious players potential schedule. Map pool appears on ladder Monday. About 12 WCS players have to play Katowice EU qualifier all evening. If they fail monday/tuesday night they will probably try to play the American qualifier till early morning. If they succeed they have play tuesday/wednesday night the second day of America qualifier. They finish wednesday morning - on wednesday they have to travel to Leipzig, not the easiest place to get to even from Europe as most players will have to take 2 flights or travel by car/train. They will have first opportunity to practice new maps on thursday morning during warm up for the tournament.
On January 19 2018 11:30 pvsnp wrote: Blizzard pushing new maps on such short notice is fair by definition, in that every player has equal time to prepare on the new maps.
That doesn't mean it is the correct move, though.
How often has this to be made clear: it's not fair by definition because: - the players who already played custom games on those maps have an unforeseen advantage - players with tight schedule (planned before the change was announced) can't prepare as much on these maps - players with longer travel distances can't prepare as much - the possibility of discovering small advantageous tweaks is massively random because it depends highly on what your opponent does if you detect such a thing. So, with a short time of preparation, detecting such an advantage is quite big without the player being actually somehow more clever than the others - it's just luck then.
Everyone always has their own circumstances. Even without a map pool change would you call things unfair because one player had a more open schedule than another and got more practice done? And random luck is the fairest of things.
This change is applied by Dreamhack and Blizzard without favouritism or discrimination towards any particular player, and so it's 'fair'. It's not 'even' and it's not 'good', but it's 'fair'.
The majority of your reasoning ignores the majority of the context surrounding the change and you also make the claim that "random luck is fair" which isn't a good thing for competition nor a good thing for spectatorship, so I'm gonna call bullshit again on the "it's fair" stance.
Random luck is literally the only thing in the entire world that is actually fair. It might not be good for competition or spectators, but it is the fairest thing you will ever experience.
Players don't live in a vacuum, tournaments don't exist in a vacuum. No matter what, there would always be some level of inherent advantage or disadvantage associated with new maps.
I don't think this was a smart choice, but it is most certainly a fair one. To put that into context, it would be perfectly fair for Blizzard for force all the progamers to run a 5k before they start playing. That would be utterly ridiculous and totally pointless, but it would still be perfectly fair.
Random luck is literally the only thing in the entire world that is actually fair. It might not be good for competition or spectators, but it is the fairest thing you will ever experience.
Players don't live in a vacuum, tournaments don't exist in a vacuum. No matter what, there would always be some level of inherent advantage or disadvantage associated with new maps.
I don't think this was a smart choice, but it is most certainly a fair one. To put that into context, it would be perfectly fair for Blizzard for force all the progamers to run a 5k before they start playing. That would be utterly ridiculous and totally pointless, but it would still be perfectly fair.
"Fair" is not a very high standard of quality.
Random luck may be fair, ok. I would love to see Blizzard force progamers to run 5k before the tournament. - if you think that would be fair then I think Blizzard would go bankrupt after such a move. Introducing new maps for Leipzig is just stupid and has nothing to do with fairness.
Random luck is literally the only thing in the entire world that is actually fair. It might not be good for competition or spectators, but it is the fairest thing you will ever experience.
Players don't live in a vacuum, tournaments don't exist in a vacuum. No matter what, there would always be some level of inherent advantage or disadvantage associated with new maps.
I don't think this was a smart choice, but it is most certainly a fair one. To put that into context, it would be perfectly fair for Blizzard for force all the progamers to run a 5k before they start playing. That would be utterly ridiculous and totally pointless, but it would still be perfectly fair.
"Fair" is not a very high standard of quality.
Random luck may be fair, ok. I would love to see Blizzard force progamers to run 5k before the tournament. - if you think that would be fair then I think Blizzard would go bankrupt after such a move. Introducing new maps for Leipzig is just stupid and has nothing to do with fairness.
I agree, it is a stupid move.
But that wasn't my point. Stupid or not, it is still a fair decision.
Now all we need to do to make this the most "Fair" tournament in the history of SC2 would be to make every series a bo1! Wouldn't that be the icing on the cake
On January 20 2018 11:09 Togekiss wrote: Now all we need to do to make this the most "Fair" tournament in the history of SC2 would be to make every series a bo1! Wouldn't that be the icing on the cake
This actually kinda happened already. Dreamhack Winter 2010 where the BYOC Qualifiers were Bo1 all the way through (even the finals) and the group stage was played bo1 as well. That was awful.
But that wasn't my point. Stupid or not, it is still a fair decision.
I suppose its a problem with what is fair or not. If something is stupid it is not fair by definition in my opinion.
"Fair" should also be something that is up to everyone's standards, which is very clearly not up to the standards of the spectators nor, by far, the standards of the competitors.
Just because whatever your definition of the word "fair" is doesn't mean it matches with the definition of others, and expecting/requiring others to act according to your personal definition and ignoring theirs is unfair to everyone else.
EPT
