EPTOn December 09 2017 01:30 JimmyJRaynor wrote:isn't the Cyclone designed to be very "micro-able" ?
what kind of micro can you do with tornado blaster cyclones? cause I'm pretty sure the answer is none. medivac micro doesn't count
Community Update - December Balance Changes - Page 8
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
what kind of micro can you do with tornado blaster cyclones? cause I'm pretty sure the answer is none. medivac micro doesn't count | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On December 09 2017 10:17 SHODAN wrote: what kind of micro can you do with tornado blaster cyclones? cause I'm pretty sure the answer is none. medivac micro doesn't count yes the micro you can do with it actually dosent count of course /s | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On December 09 2017 06:49 MrWayne wrote: But they scaling as good into Lategame as before, they still get +2 attack vs armored units. How many non armored Lategame units are in the game? the only one i can think of is the Ghost. the Stalker dps wasn't changed at all with 4.0, the Stalker buff only changed how many shots a Stalker needs to kill a medivac and how many Stalker you need to 1shot a medivac. With this patch the stalker still needs 3 shots less to kill a Medivac than before 4.0. Although the dps is the same after playing on this patch I think we all learned how powerfull higher burst dmg is on stalkers. It's significant due to overkill, kiteing, and also just generally due to the fact that if you have higher burst at the time of fight initiation, so your other non stalker units will finish targets faster. It's a significant change and one that I'm not happy about. Btw no bias here I'm a Terran masters player. I know toss needs nerfs but why do we have to nerf the stalker? I'd much prefer to see nerfs eslwhere while keeping the new stalker intact. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On December 09 2017 10:27 starkiller123 wrote: yes the micro you can do with it actually dosent count of course /s yes, the micro you can do with a medivac doesn't count. we're talking about the micro potential of cyclones, not medivacs. try to keep up mate | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
Though I like the 1-second warmup on their shot, I would've liked to have seen a different adaptation to the heavy Disruptor comp issue than just a bland nerf of their cooldown. I entirely agree that large numbers of Disruptors lead to some frustrating and kind of stupid gameplay. But this change also creates problems with their play in lower numbers. What I would like to see instead would be some slightly out-of-the-box idea that addresses the problem of repeated nova launches by "marking" the ground where a Disruptor shot blows up. This marked ground lasts for some length of time (let's say 15 seconds, just to throw that out there), and its collision behaves similarly to a unit, in that it forcibly detonates any nova that touches it. This will (hopefully) reduce the ability of a Protoss player to create cloying and obnoxious gameplay by holding the same engagement ground with a never-ending series of novas. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On December 09 2017 10:36 SHODAN wrote: yes, the micro you can do with a medivac doesn't count. we're talking about the micro potential of cyclones, not medivacs. try to keep up mate yeah and I'm saying your argument is shit | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On December 09 2017 10:45 starkiller123 wrote: yeah and I'm saying your argument is shit wow, nice bait. 4/10, almost fell for it | ||
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MrWayne
219 Posts
On December 09 2017 08:40 Skyro wrote: There are plenty of light armor units used that are used in the late game. When I say late game I don't mean high tech units. Late game = bigger armies = DPS plays a bigger role (and in particular DPS/cost, which Stalkers has pretty much the worst ratio of in the game). Stalker DPS wasn't changed in terms of the base raw numbers, but in real world applications it has due to armor and the weapon upgrade scaling changes. But Protoss don't need the Stalker vs light units, you already have the Adept, Colossus and Storm to deal with them. Compared to other units the Stalkers DPS/cost is pretty bad but it's not his DPS that makes the Stalker a good unit, back in the Blink Stalker era the DPS/cost was bad too. On December 09 2017 08:40 Skyro wrote: The proposed change makes it so Stalkers kill medivacs in 9 rather than 8 hits. That may not seem like a big deal but it does change the equation quite a bit, likely needing a 5th stalker to deter drops. That is just one example, but there are many unit matchups where I think Stalkers performance should be improved, such as vs. Phoenix, Oracles, Adepts, Mutas, etc. (unit matchups where Stalkers are supposed to be very effective against). We shall see. I just feel there was hardly any time at all for people to adjust to the new Stalker and that it was very rushed especially combined with the other nerfs. I considered TvP pre 4.0 as pretty well balanced, maybe a little bit terran favored. If you compare the Game pre 4.0 with the Game after this Patch you will see that Protoss still got huge buffs especially in TvP. I don't even know if Colossus or Disruptor based comps are fine because no Protoss Pro is bothered to techup when Mass gateway Storm is that good at the moment. the Chrono Boost change won't effect the upgrade situation that much in TvP, so this change and the Disruptor change alone aren't anywhere near enough to balance TvP. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 09 2017 10:54 MrWayne wrote: But Protoss don't need the Stalker vs light units, you already have the Adept, Colossus and Storm to deal with them. Compared to other units the Stalkers DPS/cost is pretty bad but it's not his DPS that makes the Stalker a good unit, back in the Blink Stalker era the DPS/cost was bad too. I considered TvP pre 4.0 as pretty well balanced, maybe a little bit terran favored. If you compare the Game pre 4.0 with the Game after this Patch you will see that Protoss still got huge buffs especially in TvP. I don't even know if Colossus or Disruptor based comps are fine because no Protoss Pro is bothered to techup when Mass gateway Storm is that good at the moment. the Chrono Boost change won't effect the upgrade situation that much in TvP, so this change and the Disruptor change alone aren't anywhere near enough to balance TvP. You forgot to mention the part where they removed the mothership core which single-handedly prevented Protoss from dying to all the all-ins pre-patch. Of course Protoss needed buffs. | ||
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MrWayne
219 Posts
On December 09 2017 10:59 ZigguratOfUr wrote: You forgot to mention the part where they removed the mothership core which single-handedly prevented Protoss from dying to all the all-ins pre-patch. Of course Protoss needed buffs. Of course, i don't say Protoss didn't need any buffs to compensated the removal of the MSC and i like that they try to make Gateway units scale better into the late game but may changes they made with 4.0 have huge impact for mid and late game which the MSC didn't have. | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
If they break ZvP early game somehow it will be a pain in the ass to balance protoss strengh so that they don't die to zerg but don't kill terrans easely. | ||
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curufinwe_wins
68 Posts
And yes... now you don't need detection to keep them from hitting again. But widowmines still are ludicrously oppressive for such a fast and low investment drop in lower leagues vs both p and z, with even one set of shots from a drop being effectively instant wins. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16932 Posts
a guy really microes his Stalkers well and i just tip my hat to him. defending Oracle stuff is frustrating. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On December 09 2017 11:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote: early offense from a bunch of Stalkers is just more fun to defend that the Protoss flying-miracle-machine. a guy really microes his Stalkers well and i just tip my hat to him. defending Oracle stuff is frustrating. Totally agree, was not fun playing Oracle cheese as Protoss either. If I were Blizzard I would replace Pulsar Beam w/ Time Warp to make the Oracle a pure support unit (since MsC is gone). Oracle could still serve as harass with Stasis Ward (#s could be tweaked to make it balanced). If Time Warp was tweaked it could synergize well with Zealots (as well as with Stasis Ward itself to mop up frozen enemies so they can't run away). I would also buff Void Rays so their Prismatic Alignment buffs their normal damage as well and give it a defined role as a defensive/siege unit. Then I would move Warp Gate tech to Twilight Council to make things like +1 Glaive Adepts all-ins more expensive (would have to build a 2nd Twilight Council), and then do a balance pass over all of Protoss core gateway units, but I doubt Blizzard will ever touch Warp Gate. I would swap the build times of warped in units vs. normal gateway units as well (e.g. warped in units would create a cooldown longer than normal gateway build time so it is a strategic choice). | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16932 Posts
i'm a top 8 diamond-tier1 Terran player with 125 APM and i probably play the game 8 months a year. i frequently take 2 week breaks. i have a 2nd account that i play random on and i'm always someplace in diamond with that account... again ~125 APM. maybe for faster players the Oracle isn't so annoying. just my $0.02. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
Actually i'm working on a TvP build where you open ghosts, then go for full marauder/ghosts/medivacs without marines. You don't need to research shield, you don't need as much minerals and you get a lot of firepower against stalkers. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On December 09 2017 13:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote: just for completeness... i'm a top 8 diamond-tier1 Terran player with 125 APM and i probably play the game 8 months a year. i frequently take 2 week breaks. i have a 2nd account that i play random on and i'm always someplace in diamond with that account... again ~125 APM. maybe for faster players the Oracle isn't so annoying. just my $0.02. The problem with the oracle is that it was busted before they nerfed it but now it's kind of trash because it comes out to late. They need to find a happy medium where Terran can hold dumb allins but Protoss can still do harassment and have interesting interaction with the Terran player. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 09 2017 14:10 JackONeill wrote: Less oracle openers/weaker oracle + no MSC is truly a blessing for terran builds. You no longer need to build an Ebay or have insane amounts of anti air very early. Actually i'm working on a TvP build where you open ghosts, then go for full marauder/ghosts/medivacs without marines. You don't need to research shield, you don't need as much minerals and you get a lot of firepower against stalkers. Similarly the weaker mine allowed for greater opening diversity for Protoss in the match-up. Too bad Protoss is still pigeon-holed into one or two openings in PvZ or else you just die to lings. | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
On December 08 2017 22:04 Liquid`Ret wrote: This balance designer overdoes things. Triple infestor nerf. Now Protoss being nerfed x3. Terran just got ghosts buffed a while ago - now protoss is getting their strenght tuned down and still widow mines are changed as well? Constantly things are going too far in one direction. Because that went too far in other side, things will be start to get balanced | ||
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